The Original Pentecostal Movement

[Stephen63]

No excuses being made ... for anybody. Feel free to correct Mr. Clouds historical narrative of the pentecostal movement and it's keynote players. If you so desire, I'm certain that it wouldn't be too difficult to locate more then a few agreeable historical narratives of the pentecostal movement to that of Mr. Clouds ... by authors, who like you and I, are not KJV only advocates. But your "issue" with Mr. Clouds well-researched and written article on the roots of pentecostalism never was his personal preference and belief in the infallibility of God's Written Word in the KJV bible. Be that as it may, for the purpose of Zone's thread and content, it is Mr. Clouds historical account of pentecostalism that you should challenge ... and reprove ... and not his person or bible translation preference. You did, after all, just admit to using the very same version yourself.

Actually, NO. If the witness's lifestyle & doctrine is unreliable, then so is their witness!

 

[zone]

About those histories of yours:
1. Who would believe The New York Times? Only those that don't believe in the Illuminati.
2. Why would we believe a Lutheran pastor who is a dye-in-the-wool Lutheran? You really expect us to just accept that his article isn't tainted, to say the least?
3. Why would we believe David Cloud, who is a KJV onlyist....... anyone who believes that doctrine is immature, & not deep enough in the Word to prove their own dogma, let alone have the right to attack someone's elses.

why don't you, as an Original Pentecostal who knows what's up - post the actual accepted history then?
do you? not so far....mind you i haven't been through the thread yet.

if you don't like the authors of the articles...please post one you DO LIKE.

stephen if you're not secure in your own denomination for whatever reason, just say so.
i don't know what the problem is with just posting some links to information you believe accurately defines the Pentecostal Movement that you approve of.

you don't have to post on the branches or leaders you disapprove of.
you don't have to post anything at all....

yet you are - but it's anything except the subject.

so if you wouldn't mind staying on TOPIC on this thread PLEASE, it would be appreciated.
you have the ability presumably to point in the right direction concerning what you consider The Original Pentecostal Movement....do you plan to?

this other stuff is more distraction - please don't derail this thread if you're not going to just address the OP.

 

[Stephen63]

What's happened to you Rick? You're not the same person you were less than a year ago.

Let's just say you folks have a certain effect on people......."nuff said.

 

[SarahM777]

Let's just say you folks have a certain effect on people......."nuff said.

I was not addressing you. I was asking Rick,why not let Rick answer that question instead of you putting words into his mouth?

 

[zone]

Continued from the the last chapter:

Corinthians 13:
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


So, reading the script what do we learn?
First we only know in part rightNow, (remember, the one saying that is the Apostle who wrote half the books of the New Testament)
- - But right after he says THEN that which is in part shall be done away.(Who is we? This is the man who is writing the Holy Scripture, - RIGHT NOW - AT THAT PRESENT TIME WHEN HE SAID "FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, BUT THEN FACE TO FACE - What? But When? This is the man writing that which is perfect according to those who claim the gifts are ended because of his perfect writ, yet the very man said that even at that time he only knew in part.
- And then he says this: "then shall I know even as I am known."


So what do we see?
1. We see the apostle addressing the gifts in chapter 12
2. We see an attention stressed to Agape love in chapter 13
3. We see the apostle who was sent to the gentiles-(world) stressing the life of a christian as giving.
4. Then, (this is the most remarkable thing) he refers to prophecy and tongues and knowledge( three gifts to the church)
as fallible - because mankind is, which is the instrument through which those gifts come. pointing out that now, at this present time: when we are alive in our bodies we are fallible, we don't know everything, we see but through a dark glass, we don't know, even the prophet doesn't know, tongues will cease, prophecies will fail, and knowledge will vanish.
- -SO ALL THOSE GIFTS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE LOVE OF GOD.
Then Paul even compares faith and hope to the love of God!
5. What does he say? That Love never fails, (because it is solely Agape!!!! God's)
It is not dependent on mankind as faith is....It is not dependent on the whims of human souls as hope is....Love is God's alone. - "For He so loved the world that made a man out of Himself to be butchered for us."

This is the meaning of these passages of scripture, the gifts are in full effect.
- Yet through earthen vessels.
Why? Because God never left His own alone.
That's why He sent the Comforter; and that is why It, (and the gifts that accompany It); are here today.
- - We still see through a glass darkly.
- - - We will not know as we are known until we see Him face to face.

rick, once again i'll ask .

please...this thread is hopefully not going to advance (or digress) into continuationism vs cessationism, at least not BEFORE we get an acceptable Pentecostal history from sources who agree.

don't you think we should have some sort of consensus on that before proceeding?
otherwise it goes in circles.

i really just started this particular thread to find out WHAT THE COMMONLY agreed on history of the Pentecostal Movement is...from Pentecostal sources.

okay? thanks.

 

[zone]

Actually, NO. If the witness's lifestyle & doctrine is unreliable, then so is their witness!

well.....okay.
i guess we could go through the list of leaders of the movement and see if that applies to everyone.
should we?

it's only fair, and it would be best, if you could post a list of leaders/witnesses you believe are reliable (their liefstyles and doctrines being the proof).

could you? please?
if not...could you please start another thread?

you don't like the sources of the histories, yet are not addressing the history.
which isn't really very helpful or productive.
i don't see how this advances your credibility.
maybe. dunno.

 

[SarahM777]

well.....okay.
i guess we could go through the list of leaders of the movement and see if that applies to everyone.
should we?

it's only fair, and it would be best, if you could post a list of leaders/witnesses you believe are reliable (their liefstyles and doctrines being the proof).

could you? please?
if not...could you please start another thread?

you don't like the sources of the histories, yet are not addressing the history.
which isn't really very helpful or productive.
i don't see how this advances your credibility.
maybe. dunno.

If they are unwilling then one must go to their sources of information

History of the Pentecostal Movement

Christian Assemblies International

These are who they list as the leaders

John Alexander Dowie

Albert B Simpson

Charles Parham

William Seymour

Azusa Street Mission

History of the Pentecostal Movement | Christian Assemblies International

 

[zone]

If they are unwilling then one must go to their sources of information

History of the Pentecostal Movement

Christian Assemblies International

These are who they list as the leaders

John Alexander Dowie

Albert B Simpson

Charles Parham

William Seymour

Azusa Street Mission

History of the Pentecostal Movement | Christian Assemblies International

from that source:

The Pentecostal Movement grew out of the Holiness Revival of the second half of the nineteenth century. This revival was an expression of both social and theological discontent among the nation's lower and middle-class groups. Holiness followers disapproved of the godlessness in mainline denominations, as well as the growing wealth and lack of simplicity of their churches. Not content to remain in mainline churches, they formed new religious communities committed to seeking perfection in Christ. These former Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists were experiencing a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit much like the early church experienced in the book of Acts. The Holiness Revival produced a hunger for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (a divine empowerment of believers) and for other spiritual gifts promised to the New Testament church such as healing and prophecy.

...

okay. history:

- the second half of the nineteenth century

- new religious communities

...

- The Pentecostal Movement grew out of the Holiness Revival

- Holiness followers.....experiencing a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit much like the early church experienced in the book of Acts.

- Holiness Revival produced a hunger for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (a divine empowerment of believers)

- and for other spiritual gifts promised to the New Testament church such as healing and prophecy.

....

the second half of the nineteenth century

 

[RickShafer]

I was not addressing you. I was asking Rick,why not let Rick answer that question instead of you putting words into his mouth?

That's O.K. - I'm fine with Stephen speaking for me.

 

[RickShafer]

rick, once again i'll ask .

please...this thread is hopefully not going to advance (or digress) into continuationism vs cessationism, at least not BEFORE we get an acceptable Pentecostal history from sources who agree.

don't you think we should have some sort of consensus on that before proceeding?
otherwise it goes in circles.

i really just started this particular thread to find out WHAT THE COMMONLY agreed on history of the Pentecostal Movement is...from Pentecostal sources.

okay? thanks.

Well....I liked where the Spirit led me with that - (those two ) particular posts.
- They were alot of work.
But if you insist, I won't demur.

 

[SarahM777]

That's O.K. - I'm fine with Stephen speaking for me.

That's fine but is that the truth?

 

[Enow]

Quoted from source link "As he was preaching at a Methodist Church on Azusa Street on the need for every Christian to have a personal Pentecost experience (as it happened to the 120 believers in Acts 2:1-4), many in attendance were baptized in the Holy Spirit, which was evidenced in some by the speaking of tongues, and others by miraculous healings"

So they were not preaching Jesus Christ & Him crucified. They were preaching Pentecost and prepping believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit "again" with evidence of speaking in tongues.

It should also be telltaling when believers are seeking the gift of tongues when Paul told everyone in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts.

I would say that this would be the core of Pentecostal teachings. That is the banner waved in all movements of the "Spirit" after "Azusa" when saved believers seek to receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sensational sign in the flesh including tongues which comes with no interpretations.

Evidence of this errant teachings can be found in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 and 1 John 4:1-7 and 2 Thessalonians 2nd & 3rd chapter as that falling away was addressed to those wicked and evil men being disorderly in that third chapter so as to be admonished as brothers still but by withdrawing from them in the hopes that they will repent.

I would say this is the prophesy spoken:

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

This video shares the evidence that supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation & just babbling nonsense have been present in the occult LONG BEFORE the day of Pentecost had come in Acts 2nd chapter.

The Danger of Tongues - YouTube

1 Thessalonians 5: [SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23[SUP] [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Brethren, pray for us.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [SUP]25 [/SUP]In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [SUP]26 [/SUP]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We are to be witnesses of the Son in being His disciples in serving Him by seeking His glory; NOT by being witnesses of Pentecost and seeking the glory of Pentecost by having believers receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign of tongues. There is no other calling. There is no other invitation by going to the "Spirit". Instead we are to go to God the Father by way of the Son as the bride should in relating to God thru the Bridegroom, the Son of God.

 

[zone]

Well....I liked where the Spirit led me with that - (those two ) particular posts.
- They were alot of work.
But if you insist, I won't demur.

if this thread stays on track...and we reach some reasonable consensus on what is and is not acceptable history and doctrine for Pentecostals....from Pentecostals hopefully...which i guess we have from the link sarah posted....later the cessationist - continuationist - restoration thing can come in.

stuff like latter rain and whatnot i was hoping would be defined and dated by Pentecostal historians.
cuz that's kinda key.....but later maybe?

 

[The_highwayman]

And to take it a bit further,when one knows about the false teachers but never speaks out against them does that show Christ's love in one or does it show that,that person hates their brother or sister and couldn't give a rat's behind about them? What did John say about not loving our brothers whom we have seen? Didn't he say if we do not love our brothers and sisters who we have seen that it is not possible to love the Father whom we have not seen? So where does not speaking out about the false prophets and teachers show the love of Christ?

Many like to assume that speaking out and against what they perceive to be false teachers/prophets is the way to handle this. You seek to apply Matt 18 church discipline and there is nothing wrong with that.

With that aside, have you considered what is taught in Acts 5? I encourage you to read all of Acts 5, and pay strict attention to Vs 34-41. It might help you understand something and may help you spiritually mature.

 

[The_highwayman]

Don't forget where I came from. I have seen the real deal of those who are truly His and I have seen many who claim to be His but are so fake and phony and have no love. Because the evidence and mark of those who belong to the Father is love. Not the cheap shallow feel good type of love but true Agape love. The same type of love that Christ had for us.

Sarah,
You talk the talk on agape love yet fall into the senseless & foolish trap of correcting certain people in body, you perceive to be in danger of false teaching and call it walking in Christs Love.


I dont need denominational piety to determine WHO GOD SAYS I AM AND CALLED ME TO BE. I look to the author and finisher of my faith, I look to the word made flesh, I look at the man, which made himself of no reputation, I look to Jesus to see how he did it on earth to gain perspective on how I should walk my walk and talk my talk.

For you and all those that continually beat the drums of how misguided those that identify with the Full Gospel or Spirit Filled side of the body are wrong let me offer you this.


Jesus never defended his faith or his teachings, or justified the gifts he operated in to anyone. In Nazareth, he was rejected outright, because it was his own home town and he did not argue with them and could do no mighty work there [See Mark 6]

Jesus never chased after those that did not believe his FULL GOSPEL ministry w/signs and wonders following and beat them over the head.

Love is the main thing, but you fail in regards to this, because you seek to put an expectation of return on your love, for those in the body you perceive to be in error.

True agape love seeks no expectation of ANY kind of return. When we can love without expectation any kind of return we have found true agape love.

Many of you who rail against other believers, who do believe in the Full Gospel, and seek to return them to your way of thinking, quite honestly show no love whatsoever in your rants and ill fated attempts at convincing to save those folks from themselves.

When you can look at fellow brothers and sisters regardless of their Christian beliefs and love them despite themselves and move on, then maybe you have gained initial revelation on Agape love.

When you can look at anyone in the world, even those engaged in homosexuality, and love them depsite themselves, and minister to them without mentioning their sin, because you allow the love and compassion of Jesus to shine through you,then maybe you move to an upper level understanding of true agape love

When you can attend church without church people and the pastoral and Sunday school hurting and offending you over ANYTHING, maybe you being initial operating in agape Love.

When you are on your way out of Walmart and the Holy Ghost points out to you, the person struggling, that is walking towards you and you listen to the Holy Ghost and obey him and ask...Hey may I pray with you today.

And they accept and you pray for this person out-loud despite anyone around you and you don't give a rats behind, who thinks what and touch a life, wether they say the sinners prayer or not, then maybe you understand how real agape love works and you operate the same way Jesus did...

Love is only half the equation, you must also have compassion, they are not the same thing at all. Compassion comes from your inside bowels, compassion will compel you to act, compassion will never leave you alone, it screams for you to act upon what you see through the lens of Jesus eyes.

When Jesus moved in compassion and love......the sick were made well, the diseased were made whole, the blind could see, the lame walked again, the dead were raised to life, the oppressed and possessed were delivered, water was turned into wine, nets were broken with overflow, yokes were destroyed, burdens were lifted, lives were changed, intellectual religion and the law were destroyed, and salvation and redemption were purchased.

When the countless disciples and later when the 12 became Apostles and the moved in love and compassion, they changed the world.

And some of you honestly want to try to convince me that it is not for today!?!?

Who are the false teachers and prophets now.

I stay silent because my compassion and love for all of God's sons and daughters override my need to debate, apologize and attempt to defend differing opinions and commentary on doctrines and religion.

COPY & PASTE JESUS....

 

[zone]

When Jesus moved in compassion and love......the sick were made well, the diseased were made whole, the blind could see, the lame walked again, the dead were raised to life, the oppressed and possessed were delivered, water was turned into wine, nets were broken with overflow, yokes were destroyed, burdens were lifted, lives were changed, intellectual religion and the law were destroyed, and salvation and redemption were purchased.

could you please document you doing any of these things (you say are for today, i assume you mean you "operating in the gifts" (where's that term in the bible?):

- the diseased were made whole (instantly)
- the blind could see (literally)
- the lame walked again (after being born lame)
- the dead were raised to life (literally)
- water was turned into wine < i'd be particularly interested in this one...haven't heard charismatics make this claim yet.
- nets were broken with overflow (literally)

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah,
You talk the talk on agape love yet fall into the senseless & foolish trap of correcting certain people in body, you perceive to be in danger of false teaching and call it walking in Christs Love.


I dont need denominational piety to determine WHO GOD SAYS I AM AND CALLED ME TO BE. I look to the author and finisher of my faith, I look to the word made flesh, I look at the man, which made himself of no reputation, I look to Jesus to see how he did it on earth to gain perspective on how I should walk my walk and talk my talk.

For you and all those that continually beat the drums of how misguided those that identify with the Full Gospel or Spirit Filled side of the body are wrong let me offer you this.


Jesus never defended his faith or his teachings, or justified the gifts he operated in to anyone. In Nazareth, he was rejected outright, because it was his own home town and he did not argue with them and could do no mighty work there [See Mark 6]

Jesus never chased after those that did not believe his FULL GOSPEL ministry w/signs and wonders following and beat them over the head.

Love is the main thing, but you fail in regards to this, because you seek to put an expectation of return on your love, for those in the body you perceive to be in error.

True agape love seeks no expectation of ANY kind of return. When we can love without expectation any kind of return we have found true agape love.

Many of you who rail against other believers, who do believe in the Full Gospel, and seek to return them to your way of thinking, quite honestly show no love whatsoever in your rants and ill fated attempts at convincing to save those folks from themselves.

When you can look at fellow brothers and sisters regardless of their Christian beliefs and love them despite themselves and move on, then maybe you have gained initial revelation on Agape love.

When you can look at anyone in the world, even those engaged in homosexuality, and love them depsite themselves, and minister to them without mentioning their sin, because you allow the love and compassion of Jesus to shine through you,then maybe you move to an upper level understanding of true agape love

When you can attend church without church people and the pastoral and Sunday school hurting and offending you over ANYTHING, maybe you being initial operating in agape Love.

When you are on your way out of Walmart and the Holy Ghost points out to you, the person struggling, that is walking towards you and you listen to the Holy Ghost and obey him and ask...Hey may I pray with you today.

And they accept and you pray for this person out-loud despite anyone around you and you don't give a rats behind, who thinks what and touch a life, wether they say the sinners prayer or not, then maybe you understand how real agape love works and you operate the same way Jesus did...

Love is only half the equation, you must also have compassion, they are not the same thing at all. Compassion comes from your inside bowels, compassion will compel you to act, compassion will never leave you alone, it screams for you to act upon what you see through the lens of Jesus eyes.

When Jesus moved in compassion and love......the sick were made well, the diseased were made whole, the blind could see, the lame walked again, the dead were raised to life, the oppressed and possessed were delivered, water was turned into wine, nets were broken with overflow, yokes were destroyed, burdens were lifted, lives were changed, intellectual religion and the law were destroyed, and salvation and redemption were purchased.

When the countless disciples and later when the 12 became Apostles and the moved in love and compassion, they changed the world.

And some of you honestly want to try to convince me that it is not for today!?!?

Who are the false teachers and prophets now.

I stay silent because my compassion and love for all of God's sons and daughters override my need to debate, apologize and attempt to defend differing opinions and commentary on doctrines and religion.

COPY & PASTE JESUS....

Sorry Highwayman you neither know my heart or me. You speak of what you do not know of me. You speak in error for you do NOT know where I have been.

I have since the beginning questioned the SOURCE of what is seen as the gifts of the spirit in this day and age. I make no bones about that. The question is and still remains is this truly from God or not? Is the spirit behind the Lord or another spirit? If these things are not from God,the Bible makes it very clear that it's witchcraft,divination and idolatry. And the consequences are very,very severe and eternal for messing around with the occult. Israel was destroyed and Judah was sent captivity. The seriousness of this can not be overstated.

And it does not surprise me that someone who knows the story would post a like on this and not correct you.

 

[RickShafer]

Sarah, I posted the like because he is right.

 

[zone]

Many of you who rail against other believers, who do believe in the Full Gospel, and seek to return them to your way of thinking, quite honestly show no love whatsoever in your rants and ill fated attempts at convincing to save those folks from themselves.

When you can look at fellow brothers and sisters regardless of their Christian beliefs and love them despite themselves and move on, then maybe you have gained initial revelation on Agape love.

see posts 2; 3 and 69 < yours.
then get back to me on that initial revelation on Agape love thing you got.
(no, don't).

i'm derailing my own thread.

....

PLEASE may we return to a SIMPLE approved History of the Pentecostal Movement.

if not i may request Still close the thread....(don't know if he will)

THANKS.

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah, I posted the like because he is right.

Question for you Rick,

Would you not speak to a Mormon,JW or Christian Scientist and show them the errors because they too say they are Christian? Or would would you speak to them and point out the errors? How about those like Skinski or Tommy4Christ who believe in Pelagianism? Would you allow the errors to continue? They too claimed they were Christian.


And was he right when you know where I have been, IE (Transgender and been on the receiving end of judgement,hatred and violence by those who have claimed to be Christ's)? Do we forget Jesus word's that many will say Lord,Lord and He will say depart from me for I never knew you? How about Jesus warnings about those who can do signs and wonders and here again He says depart from me you workers of iniquity? They are able to do signs and wonders,shouldn't we take that very seriously? How about when Jesus tells us that the time will come when a strong delusion will come that will be so great that if possible even the elect could be deceived? Isn't the Lord telling us to be very careful on what people are claiming or am I mistaken?