T
The_highwayman
Guest
NO sir, the loudest form of agreement would be letting in a wolf, that preaches a different Christ, before you discerned he was a false prophet.
The Original Pentecostal Movement
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NO sir, the loudest form of agreement would be letting in a wolf, that preaches a different Christ, before you discerned he was a false prophet.
Please show me in the Bible where the phrase "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" occurs! I've looked in vain through so many versions, and Biblegateway and google just can't seem to find it in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit is imparted to us when God saves us. There is no second blessing, or needing of some kind of second baptism to have the Holy Spirit, as the Bible is clear that if you do NOT have the Spirit of God, you do not belong to Christ.
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Romans 8:9
As for salvation,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-9
As for knowledge, I think it is clear that knowledge comes through the Holy Bible.
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17
We do need to walk in the knowledge of the Word of God.
"For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6
"until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, [SUP]14 [/SUP]so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." Eph. 4:13-14
But then, I hope you knew that already!
K
Kerry
Guest
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Has God changed. I think not
Has God changed. I think not
T
The_highwayman
Guest
K
Kerry
Guest
Near it? My friend, we are already in it, at least in the front of it.
And you are right about the deception. It is in every denomination. But why is only the Pentecostals & Charismatics being boxed into a stereotyped box? Why is it the others are ignored as if they don't exist? The answer is here:
John 10:1-10 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. [SUP]6 [/SUP]This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Cfultz3, these 2 movements are the last 2 true ones before the judgement. What then is Satan trying to do to them from within & without? Just what that scripture says.
And as for me having a "bad" experience in the Pentecostal and charismatic churches I attended, I would say, no! I was inexperienced and didn't know the Bible. I had many good friends and support in those churches. I was from a background that loved the loud praise and worship.
But the more and more I read my Bible, I realized what I was seeing did not line up with the Bible. I read all the Pentecostal books, and it moved me even more away. I was a member of at least 5 churches during my 15 years, as we moved a lot in those days. I had some good pastors and some bad ones. I learned the beginnings of eschatology, and how the AoG (PAOC) actually called out amillennials as heretics in their doctrinal statements. That bothered me, because one church I went to had some incredibly Biblical pastors, and they were amillennial, which always looked like the Biblical option to me.
I was very involved in those churches, but never once was I challenged to read the Bible, to study or pray. Just ask for the Holy Spirit to come upon you again, and again and again. But it wasn't working for me, nor for many others I knew. One big church was less Pentecostal than some Baptist churches I have belonged to. At least we raise our hands, and I never saw one hand raised in praise in that church of over 3000, nor heard anything that resembled any gifts.
So varied experiences and not all bad! Reading my Bible - well, that was the basis of realizing that things were not right in Pentecostal land. People were not experiencing any of the supposed blessings. Marriages were falling apart, children were going astray, sick people stayed sick. Some of those churches were loud, others, like the last one were a spectacle of the orchestra (I played in it!) and the 100 piece choir, with church productions at Christmas and Easter that would rival C.B de Mille! Over 10,000 people would come to one production, with thousands signing commitment cards that never came back or wanted to be "followed up" with. I don't hold that against that church - at least they were trying!
In the end, the Bible is what convinced me that the Pentecostal movement was just wrong. Not a bad experience, not any church or denomination I attended. Well, there was that wicked Health and Wealth heresy, but that is a different thread, I hope!
But the more and more I read my Bible, I realized what I was seeing did not line up with the Bible. I read all the Pentecostal books, and it moved me even more away. I was a member of at least 5 churches during my 15 years, as we moved a lot in those days. I had some good pastors and some bad ones. I learned the beginnings of eschatology, and how the AoG (PAOC) actually called out amillennials as heretics in their doctrinal statements. That bothered me, because one church I went to had some incredibly Biblical pastors, and they were amillennial, which always looked like the Biblical option to me.
I was very involved in those churches, but never once was I challenged to read the Bible, to study or pray. Just ask for the Holy Spirit to come upon you again, and again and again. But it wasn't working for me, nor for many others I knew. One big church was less Pentecostal than some Baptist churches I have belonged to. At least we raise our hands, and I never saw one hand raised in praise in that church of over 3000, nor heard anything that resembled any gifts.
So varied experiences and not all bad! Reading my Bible - well, that was the basis of realizing that things were not right in Pentecostal land. People were not experiencing any of the supposed blessings. Marriages were falling apart, children were going astray, sick people stayed sick. Some of those churches were loud, others, like the last one were a spectacle of the orchestra (I played in it!) and the 100 piece choir, with church productions at Christmas and Easter that would rival C.B de Mille! Over 10,000 people would come to one production, with thousands signing commitment cards that never came back or wanted to be "followed up" with. I don't hold that against that church - at least they were trying!
In the end, the Bible is what convinced me that the Pentecostal movement was just wrong. Not a bad experience, not any church or denomination I attended. Well, there was that wicked Health and Wealth heresy, but that is a different thread, I hope!
K
Kerry
Guest
WE have all been wronged by churches. Now you show yourself and what other people think. The baptism of the Holy Ghost will even more separate from the so called holy ones. Stand your ground and yes you will be ostracised for it. thats what the bible teaches.
I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle....... There is a time for all things...... a time to speak, and to be silent.
K
Kerry
Guest
You know the only non pentecostal church that you can speak in tongues is the Catholic church. I know thats amazing, but they just think you are speaking in Latin.
I stand corrected....your denomination believes that, not you. Sorry for the mistake.
As far as seeking for the gifts......One should seek them to serve, not dominate.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? [SUP]31[/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Paul told this to the church that abused the gifts more than any other.
Still waiting for someone to show me the phrase: "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "Baptism of the Holy Ghost".
Quoting Acts 2 is nice, but that phrase is not there. I wonder why?
Quoting Acts 2 is nice, but that phrase is not there. I wonder why?
It's a free gift.....but only to those that live in obedience to Him.
Acts 5:32 (KJV) [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John the Baptist said it.
Matthew 3:11 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
How did you miss that?
K
Kerry
Guest
You want find it because your not looking for it. Its all over the new testament. It say's filled. thats the same thing. How did Paul and He said that they were filled just as we were know that they have received. Be cause they spoke in tongues. Do you have another reason?
Sarah,
You see accusations against you personally.
The only accusations are towards the gifts!
Please read every post.
Who ever said you are not a child of God if you don't believe in the gifts?
- Yet on the other hand, who denigrates them every chance they get by posting false signs?
- - This is my question to you, who have been heavily persecuted; (by as I suppose, those who declared the gifts).
- - - Who persecutes who? "Uuuuummmmm, ..........." (same as it always was)
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K
Kerry
Guest
The original pentecostal movement started exactly fifty days after the Savior returned to the Father.
- (I know this is hard for some to believe).
It's gifts never ended, - -BECAUSE THE COMFORTER NEVER STOPPED COMFORTING.
Anyone who says the Holy Spirit stopped dealing with souls the way It did when Jesus sent it is religious. - (Taken with liturgy and rationalism over the substance of the soul; which is the mind, will, and emotions).
- - So much like the Sanhedrin you are religious to the core.
- (I know this is hard for some to believe).
It's gifts never ended, - -BECAUSE THE COMFORTER NEVER STOPPED COMFORTING.
Anyone who says the Holy Spirit stopped dealing with souls the way It did when Jesus sent it is religious. - (Taken with liturgy and rationalism over the substance of the soul; which is the mind, will, and emotions).
- - So much like the Sanhedrin you are religious to the core.
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Let's see -
Baptize - verb
Baptism - noun
So we are still not talking about the same phrase, really?
This verb phrase was from John the Baptist speaking before Jesus was baptized, before he had his ministry and before he died on the cross, was resurrected and then the Holy Spirit came down on the Day of Pentecost to start the church and the Holy Spirit was given to each person who believed and was baptized.
"[SUP]8 [/SUP]I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Mark 1:8-11
Sounds like Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? Except Jesus always had the Holy Spirit, so perhaps the verses are not talking about some baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Or since you prefer the verses in Matt 3 and Luke 3:
"[SUP]17 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." Luke 3:17
"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” Matt 3:12
These follow the verses you have mentioned, Stephen, in context. Sounds like the fire here is not a very good one to me! Burning off the dross, or the chaff. Which basically is those who are not saved, I think??
So you have John the Baptist saying once, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Still no sign of the words "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". Instead, just a future promise that Jesus would send the Holy Spirit after his resurrection and after he went to heaven to be with the Father. Acts 2 also points out the ONE time the tongues as of fire appeared above the disciples' heads.
So is there really a "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the Bible? Or just the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit upon all those who would believe? Jesus and the apostles never use the term once. Jesus was baptized in water, and his Father's approval was shown. John the Baptist says one time 'baptize you in the Holy Spirit" and it is Biblical grounds for not just a major doctrine, but in fact, an entire movement?? A movement which has somehow constructed a second baptism where none appears in the Bible. An unnecessary baptism, since water baptism is what Jesus commanded his followers to do before he ascended.
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matt 28;18-19
And once again, this is why I left the Pentecostal movement. Not because of a bad church, or bad people, but because of BAD DOCTRINE!
You do not make an entire movement out of one verse in the Bible. God makes it very clear the things that are important by repeating the same thing over and over. Take the cross. I'm sure we can agree it appears many times. Or repentance. Of course, there are other places where Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit, such as in John.
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," John 14:16
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." John 15:26
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13
Of course Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we would not be able to be saved! And every believer has the Holy Spirit from the moment God saves them. But this nebulous "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" which actually does not appear one time, although a verb form does appear once, with qualifiers that render it somewhat confusing in the Luke and Matthew versions.
And to make a whole movement out of this second baptism which is nowhere found in scripture? That is bad hermeneutics. It is the classical example of bad doctrine.
So here are millions and millions of Pentecostals and Charismatics worldwide, basing their entire basic, founding doctrine on a phrase that isn't in the Bible, using instead the verb phrase connected it to the common practice of water baptism (the mikvah, in Jewish terminology) which is what John the Baptist practiced.
No baptism of the Holy Ghost promised to each individual, just a one time event, complete with tongues as of fire in Acts 2. One time, when the church was birthed. And certainly not what Jesus said to his disciples - he never talked about some kind of "baptism in the Holy Spirit."
Of course, if you want to keep on believing bad hermeneutics of a bad doctrine, just go right ahead. I know it is hard when someone challenges the root belief of a whole denomination. Sad though, to think that on the basis of twisting one verse by John the Baptist, before Jesus even started his ministry, you have a whole movement based on something that is not even in the Bible.
But wait, maybe you have experienced it?? Sure, let your experience stand over the Word of God. That is the worst doctrine of all in this movement.
And as for you, Kerry, do you ever use Bible verses, or just vague phrases like "It's all over the New Testament"? If it is then just kindly put up the quote of the passage, ok?
Rick,
Again I go to the point,who is the source of the gifts that are being seen? We are warned again,and again again to NOT BELIEVE every spirit. We are commanded to tests those spirits.
Shouldn't we be very wary of what is behind it when Mormons,Hindus,Shamans and Pagans can speak in tongues? Or when they also can see some types of healing's? What about Pharaoh's magicians? Is what they did or can d now different then the modern signs and wonders? How does that compare to what Jesus and the disciples did?
Didn't Jesus heal in a moment this type of stuff?
Didn't Paul commend the Berean's because they tested what he said and line it up scripture? Or did he condemn them for not believing him right away?
Have you yourself not tested what Skinski was promoting as Desario's version of the gospel? Or did you take it at face value just because he said he was a Christian? How about Mormon's? Do you take it at face value or did you test what they said and did against scripture or do you take it at face value that are truly Christian?
Have I not said that I believe that just as Paul said SOME of the gifts would cease? I have never said ALL the gifts would cease. Paul doesn't say that either. That's people pulling out what Paul plainly said and putting their own spin on it. Where in that passage does Paul say the gifts of pastors and teachers would end? Where does Paul say the gift of mercy would end? Giving? Intercession? Helps? Hospitality? Serving? To say God did not gift me with a couple would be so wrong.
And again if you were to come in here tomorrow and said God gave you a dream to sell everything and go to the people of the Congo and preach to them,I would NOT have a problem with that. If you came to me and said God told you to give your car to the woman at work who lost her husband and has no transportation,again I would no problem with that.
And we need to be careful because God did do many things for the Old Testaments saints and HE STILL DOES THOSE THINGS. He stills heals through prayer. He stills works through His sovereignty. He still works in the silence. (Ask Job about that one) Not once have I said that God doesn't move in this world. But to say that God still works through instant healing by a spoken word in the name of Jesus of a person being healed of an amputation,that's really hard to say that. Remember the Bible points that when Moses died those signs ended,the signs Elijah and Elisha did ended when Elisha died. That's the biblical pattern. If God changes not then what makes us expect that the signs of Pentecost would continue when the Bible that in other times and places shows they ended? We need to remember the WHOLE word.