The Original Pentecostal Movement

[zone]

Thirdly, people were seeing spiritual experiences as “crisis” events.

The Holiness movement taught that Christian spirituality involved seeking distinct experiences that occured as instant events. This in turn set the stage for the Pentecostal doctrine of Spirit baptism as a separate experience to conversion.

- seeking distinct experiences that occured as instant events: spiritual experiences as “crisis” events.

well for sure. every revival, or story of encounters has to match or supercede the one before, doesn't it?

we can see how it would progress from a "burning bosom" to trips to heaven on golden motorcycles and glory clouds and gold dust. the thing is....if ppl know there are malevolent spirits....which this movement does appear to focus on a lot...why aren't any of these experiences ever questioned as not genuine?

that's the part i don't get.

mind you, my own brush with the Toronto Movement did involve serious deception, that's for sure.
i was duped for a few months - absolutely.

but the REAL Holy Spirit was there leading out of it.
maybe it's because i wasn't connected to the movement by years, or through indoc/accepting the teachings (since i didn't know about them until after).

...


reader discretion advised:

War On The Saints - Contents
The True Workings of God, and Counterfeits of Satan
War On The Saints - Contents


War On The Saints - Contents

 

[zone]

"Not only did such Holiness teachers emphasize conscious religious experiences, they tended to encourage persons to seek for them as “crisis” experiences that could be received in an instant of time through prayer and faith. By 1890 the Holiness movement began to think of religious experiences more in terms of crisis than in gradual categories. Thus the Fire-Baptized Holiness Church taught instant conversion through the new birth, instant sanctification as a second blessing, instant baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, instant divine healing through prayer, and the instant premillennial second coming of Christ." [6]

Fourthly, there was a need for "evidence" of the second work.

^^^ there's another culprit ^^^

the pressure must be enormous.

yes, the evidence. prove you r saved by "doing" these things.

the big twist, is that 'parently they got the evidence, but when asked to provide it....nuthin'

mkay...

Benjamin Hardin Irwin was a radical Weslyan Holiness preacher who taught a third work of grace for power in Christian service. In 1895 he began teaching that the second work of grace initiated sanctification and the third brought baptism in the Spirit. This “third blessing” was called “the fire.”

“the fire.”


time for choklit smoothie and a walk.
ooooooo my. the fire the fire

 

[zone]

Oh yeah, Angela, now the three of you are getting somewhere! Using a BLOG, The New York Times, a Lutheran pastor that is also a psychic, & a KJV onlyist as accurate sources for church history so you can condemn several entire christian movements, including revivals.

and your contributions so far to understanding the origins of your movement?

zero.

just whining

 

[zone]

I do not think this matters, IF you believe that Christianity is a relationship between Man and GOD, A SPEAKING GOD who is never quiet, then just go to HIM and tell HIM to show you the truth about where you fall at difference with others.

Isa_52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

A SPEAKING GOD who is never quiet? - you're receiving direct revelation; prophecies; words of knowledge? God is speaking directly to you? ONE-ON-ONE-DIALOGUE?

if i recall you have posted First Person Verbatim Words you claim are directly from His lips.

"then just go to HIM and tell HIM to show you the truth about where you fall at difference with others" - i have. He teaches from His Word, and teaches not only what is True, but indicates what is false.

that's why i am a cessationist.

 

[The_highwayman]

my faith is not in myself.
or gifts.

its in what Jesus Christ The LORD has done.

trauma? oh yes, i know it.
The_highwayman....you don't know anything about me.

why don't you address the issues in the thread?

the author of the article sarah posted, which i am reading, is a Pentecostal who is able, and willing, to discern and speak about what he clearly sees is wrong....not just what is right.

don't you agree with anything he is saying?

you, are apparently not willing (or able?) to examine your own beliefs and practices.
that's on you.

consequently, i would ask you to start your own thread about a subject that interests you.

You are playing semantics now.... This is always the answer for those who believe in cessation and then you show how super spiritual you are when pressed and then remind someone they don't know a thing about us you keep from even addressing the points in the post.

Why would I need to examine my own beliefs, you are doing such a great job for me.

 

[zone]

You are playing semantics now.... This is always the answer for those who believe in cessation and then you show how super spiritual you are when pressed and then remind someone they don't know a thing about us you keep from even addressing the points in the post.

Why would I need to examine my own beliefs, you are doing such a great job for me.

what points did you want me to address?
re: missions?

you don't know what i do, dear
and you know nothing about what sustains faith. apparently.

sarah's article aligns with every other account. deal with that (which is the subject), or not.
not doing so just doesn't help you at all.

bye then

 

[The_highwayman]

this is a serious question.
reading stuff by prominent leaders and whatnot, primarily i guess in the wackier end of the charismatic arena it would be hard to know anything about Christ Crucified.

how many times does a lost sinner get to hear the saving Gospel?
what is the Gospel?

is it signs and wonders and unknown noises? is that what i place my faith in?
that since i have learned to "do" those things it means i'm saved?



Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Romans 10
The Word Brings Salvation
16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

So are you saying the Bible is salvation!?!?

 

[zone]

So are you saying the Bible is salvation!?!?

oh for.....typical.

Romans 1:16
I am Not Ashamed of the Gospel
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

i could post more.....but you don't read it.

 

[The_highwayman]

oh for.....typical.

Romans 1:16
I am Not Ashamed of the Gospel
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

i could post more.....but you don't read it.

Zone,
Thank you, we agree on something....imagine that

 

[Stephen63]

The_Hiwayman, here's an update on the people who post against Pentecostal and/or Charismatic churches.
Stillwaters, zone, angela, & sarah all came out of bad Pentecostal & Charismatic churches. They don't bother much with the other denominations, just these. I use this formulas to get folks to understand why they do it:

Former Pentecostals + posting bad threads on Pentecostals = axegrinders.

When people post such things on a regular basis like it's the only thing they know about, it's usually because it's the only thing they know about. When this is all their threads & posts degrade, ridicule, & condemn, it's because from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. It's in their heart. Anger, bitterness, confusion, & all that negativity........ the abundance of the heart.

They may believe they are delivered from that terrible church, but they're not. Those feelings still drive them to condemn what hurt them. These thing are still eating them up, That's why they're so driven.

If it's not that, then it has to be a disinformation campaign to destroy faith in the heart of these believers they are attacking.

Which do you think? If you see another, please enlighten me.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Pentecost lives

 

[The_highwayman]

The_Hiwayman, here's an update on the people who post against Pentecostal and/or Charismatic churches.
Stillwaters, zone, angela, & sarah all came out of bad Pentecostal & Charismatic churches. They don't bother much with the other denominations, just these. I use this formulas to get folks to understand why they do it:

Former Pentecostals + posting bad threads on Pentecostals = axegrinders.

When people post such things on a regular basis like it's the only thing they know about, it's usually because it's the only thing they know about. When this is all their threads & posts degrade, ridicule, & condemn, it's because from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. It's in their heart. Anger, bitterness, confusion, & all that negativity........ the abundance of the heart.

They may believe they are delivered from that terrible church, but they're not. Those feelings still drive them to condemn what hurt them. These thing are still eating them up, That's why they're so driven.

If it's not that, then it has to be a disinformation campaign to destroy faith in the heart of these believers they are attacking.

Which do you think? If you see another, please enlighten me.

Stephen63,
I see it as you describe it

I think hurt and offense is probably the main culprit. I find that many that started in Full Gospel and then drift away have legit claims of flesh working instead of the Spirit. As we both know, there have been some serious abuses in our circles and I condemn all of them. I agree with both of your explanations.

I do believe many simply do not believe that the Gifts and the 5 fold is needed for today and that is on them. I think what wears me out the most on threads like this is it always turns into the debate on tongues and nothing more. That is wihtout question the most hotly debated subject regarding the FULL Gospel, those who state God does not speak to man, in a small still voice even today, need a heart transplant.

I have been on the mission fields many times working as a minister with US missionaries and what is very interesting to see is that ALL protestant denominations, including Baptists, that work in the mission fields all believe in the FULL GOSPEL, I have met many Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist and even Lutheran missionaries all praying in tongues and operating in the gifts.

We had a Southern Baptist brother and his wife visit us on the field once and they both also believed in cessation, they spent 12 days with us and by day 3 that wonderful transformation took place...They had to leave their church/denomination when they got back and are career field missionaries today, because they cannot minister in the US.

If you ask them today about it all, they now understand what Acts 1.8 and Luke 24.49 really means and you could not convince them otherwise.

The thing all these naysayers miss when they play games with folks like us is this, we never claim it is in our power, it is the power of the Holy Ghost and Jesus working in us and in all truth, that is what really scares them.

You know as I do that Jesus said that the unpardonable sin is blaspheming the Holy Ghost, that is a really sad place to be in.

They have eyes but do not see and ears and do not hear....

Good stuff brother.

 

[cfultz3]

Does not every Christian sect, as far as that go, every religion's sect, have their good and bad teachers?

Does having some bad teachers (giving dogly demons as the Holy Spirit) make the whole sect bad?

I am not a Pentecostal, neither can I be classified as any "ism", but isn't "grouping people together and labeling them all the same" unfounded, much in the same way as people would conclude a whole racial group the same by the actions of a few?

I am sure anyone can find bad teachers in any sect of Christianity, as has been shown, so why thrown away the whole piece of cheese when you can just cut off the mold?

 

[SarahM777]

Does not every Christian sect, as far as that go, every religion's sect, have their good and bad teachers?

Does having some bad teachers (giving dogly demons as the Holy Spirit) make the whole sect bad?

I am not a Pentecostal, neither can I be classified as any "ism", but isn't "grouping people together and labeling them all the same" unfounded, much in the same way as people would conclude a whole racial group the same by the actions of a few?

I am sure anyone can find bad teachers in any sect of Christianity, as has been shown, so why thrown away the whole piece of cheese when you can just cut off the mold?

The problem is there is so much mold in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements some within the movement itself point to the fact that MOST (Some say over 80% is fake). If that is the case then which is the real and true? So much of it is based on subjective feelings. You have those within it that claim they speak to the dead. Yet where are the voices within the movement that will step up and point them out? Or does their silence on these matters show they are in agreement with them?

 

[cfultz3]

The problem is there is so much mold in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements some within the movement itself point to the fact that MOST (Some say over 80% is fake). If that is the case then which is the real and true? So much of it is based on subjective feelings. You have those within it that claim they speak to the dead. Yet where are the voices within the movement that will step up and point them out? Or does their silence on these matters show they are in agreement with them?

In your opinion and study, do you think the Pentecostal sect has fallen prey to deception and by which, has allowed its sect to have been "snatched away" from its Christian foundation? Example: some denominations have allowed gay pastors, and some have abandoned the concept of "repentance" to build up their treasury.

If that is the case, at what point do you, or anyone else, believe this has happened to the Pentecostal denomination? For me personally, I see this happening to a lot of denominations (allowing deception so the pews can be filled) and is a clue for me that we are near "the great fallen away".

 

[cfultz3]

The problem is there is so much mold in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements some within the movement itself point to the fact that MOST (Some say over 80% is fake). If that is the case then which is the real and true? So much of it is based on subjective feelings. You have those within it that claim they speak to the dead. Yet where are the voices within the movement that will step up and point them out? Or does their silence on these matters show they are in agreement with them?

Silence is the LOUDEST form of agreement.

 

[SarahM777]

In your opinion and study, do you think the Pentecostal sect has fallen prey to deception and by which, has allowed its sect to have been "snatched away" from its Christian foundation? Example: some denominations have allowed gay pastors, and some have abandoned the concept of "repentance" to build up their treasury.

If that is the case, at what point do you, or anyone else, believe this has happened to the Pentecostal denomination? For me personally, I see this happening to a lot of denominations (allowing deception so the pews can be filled) and is a clue for me that we are near "the great fallen away".

The big question is was the movement founded on deception in the first place. See that is part of the problem is looking at those who were instrumental in the foundation of the Pentecostal movement. Go into some of the ties you have Dowie and Stanford which were tied to Parham and both claimed to be the prophet Elijah. Shouldn't that right there be a big warning sign that there may very well be a BIG problem and the source may not be what one wants it be?

And if that is the could it not be that the movement itself is part of the great falling away? Jesus did warn us many would come doing signs and wonders and they would be strong enough that if possible even the elect could be deceived. The question that needs to be answered is What is the source of all these signs and wonders? It either is from God or it is not,there is no in between.

 

[zone]

The_Hiwayman, here's an update on the people who post against Pentecostal and/or Charismatic churches.
Stillwaters, zone, angela, & sarah all came out of bad Pentecostal & Charismatic churches.

hey hey hey.....please don't fib.
i was NEVER part of a pentecostal church.
i attended one a few times not knowing it was a TO kundalini thing.
okay? thanks.

record straight now.

 

[zone]

I use this formulas to get folks to understand why they do it:

Former Pentecostals + posting bad threads on Pentecostals = axegrinders.

please don't use that forumla on me...i am NOT a former pentecostal.

and i personally don't only focus on these....if you mean discerning what's wrong....nor on what's right.
but you only look for these ones.

and contribute virtually nothing.

 

[zone]

When people post such things on a regular basis like it's the only thing they know about, it's usually because it's the only thing they know about.

well, give me a try.
what would you like to talk about besides this?