Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

zone · Nov 5, 2013

okay Red33, now that we are back here -

let's look at YOUR doctrine:

zone said:

".....This was recently done again in the July/August 1999 issue of Uplook magazine (published by the Plymouth Brethren). In this their Dispensationalism Issues issue, they presented an excellent overview of dispensationalism. As a matter of fact, we would agree with the majority of what was written. But then, one writer had to add this statement:

“One final word. Like all good things, the study of dispensations can be abused. There are some Christians who carry dispensationalism to such an extreme that they accept only Paul’s Prison Epistles as applicable for the church today. As a result, they do not accept baptism or the Lord’s Supper, since these are not found in the Prison Epistles. They also teach that Peter’s gospel message was not the same as Paul’s….These people are sometimes called ultra-dispensationalists or Bullingerites (after a teacher named E. W. Bullinger). Their extreme view of dispensationalism should be rejected.” 2"

...

"Regarding the “ordinances” of the church, there is no place in Scripture where water baptism and the Lord’s supper are linked. The Lord’s Supper is a memorial that we are instructed in I Corinthians 11 to keep “until He come.” However, we do feel that water baptism is a Jewish ordinance and is something that was phased out during the transition period. It is also rarely pointed out that we are not unique in understanding that water baptism is not for today. Other groups throughout church history, such as the Quakers, have also come to this same conclusion."

Are We Hyper-Dispensationalists?
by David M. Havard
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/are-we-hyper-dispensationalists/

They also teach that Peter’s gospel message was not the same as Paul’s < oops. there's Red's false gospel. but ya need TWO of everything when you wrong divide the word of truth.

or in the case of HONEST false teachers in hyper-dispensationalist antinomian grace church gap gentile mystery rapture body...NO BAPTISM.

okay...

now i'll sit on this thread and post a half dozen smart-alecky replies waiting for you.

really- do you STILL lie awake at night trying to figure out a way to GET EVEN?

your got da wrongly divided thing goin' on...deal wit it.

BradC · Nov 5, 2013

Enough with all this hostility. When we believe and receive the Holy Spirit we are filled with the Holy Spirit, same as being baptized with the Spirit and we are urged by the scriptures to be continually filled. Water baptism is not the same and it is an outward act of obedience to what has taken place through the new birth, old man is passed away and we put put on the new man, death to the old and resurrection of the new. For the believer water baptism takes place once we have believed.

More coming, hold on!

zone · Nov 5, 2013

BradC said:

oh RLY? all'a'sudden?

okay...nice and calmly address you hyper-dispensationlism non-baptism.

ty dear.

BradC said:

would you please document; from the scriptures that "an outward act of obedience to what has taken place through the new birth"? < exactly like that.

and again, you have TWO baptisms.

i just want you to show me where the Bible says TWO.

BradC said:

Acts 2
38Peter answered them, “Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. 39 For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are distant, whom the Lord our God may call to himself.”

Matthew 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

unless YOU have the ability to Baptize with the Holy Spirit, you have some s'plain'in to do.

Acts 2:41
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

BradC · Nov 6, 2013

There should really be no debate on this simple act of water baptism. It's pretty straight forward and how people confuse it with the baptism or filling of the Spirit is a little confounding to me. The outward act of water baptism for any believer is an identification with being born again in the name of Christ through the gospel and it is done with a measure of understanding as an act of faith obedience. The infant has no capacity to understand but when they are of an understanding age they can hear the gospel, receive it and be baptized by water immersion in the name of Christ. Salvation or regeneration is not given by proxy through any act of baptism. Being baptized by water immersion (not sprinkling) is part of being a disciple and following the commandments of Christ under the new covenant. It is an individual act that separates us from the world that we have been called out of. We hear the gospel of Christ and him crucified, we believe and receive it and then we identify with Christ's death burial and resurrection through being baptized by water immersion. Out with the old and in with the new. That's it.

BradC

zone · Nov 6, 2013

BradC said:

really....why the insistence on immersion, then?
why specifically say (not sprinkling)?

you're just making a public declaration or identification of some kind...right?

what's this:

"following the commandments of Christ under the new covenant"?

read this again"

Acts 2
38Peter answered them, “Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. 39 For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are distant, whom the Lord our God may call to himself.”

- repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins.

does that say anything other than what it says?
does it actually say:

- repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah to identify with Christ's death burial and resurrection

OR:

- repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins.

what does it actually say, Red?

what about this:

Colossians 2
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

- having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

when does it say you were buried with Him?

1) when you have a funeral
2) when you heard the gospel preached
3) in baptism

what about the rest of this critical message from paul:

having been buried with Him in baptism
in which you were also raised up with Him
through faith in the working of God
who raised Him from the dead

buried with Him - in baptism it says. that's what it says, right?

- in which you were also raised up with Him

i which? in which what you were raised up? does it say? yes, it does...it says right here:

- having been buried with Him in baptism in which you were also raised up with Him

well, okay....buried...then raised up. linked directly to baptism.

huh....okay i guess that's why ppl obey Jesus to bapitize ppl....or no. Jesus REALLY meant to say something else, and so did Paul. so, what Colossians should have said, but failed to, was the Holy Spirit buries you, then raises you up in Holy Ghost Baptism....then you sometime later obey the commandment to be baptized in water....which the Holy Spirit IS APPARENTLY NOT involved in, it's to identify with Jesus or something....or show ppl we're serious or something like that.

the only problem is, Colossians doesn't say that. at all. does it.
you can cut it up, or talk at it. what you can not do is make it say something it does not.

let's see.....i wonder if it is AT ALL POSSIBLE that The Holy Spirit is working IN AND THROUGH our baptism - in WATER.
have you ever remotely considered that? do you think baptism is "A WORK" of the Law, and therefore is to be suppressed or denied or called OBEDIENCE and a show of your "identification" with Jesus?

well, if that's the case, calling yourself a Christian in public is a work of the law (flesh) too.
confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord is a WORK.

believing in your heart apprently isn't...buit confessing with your mouth HAS TO BE..logically. it's a work.
not the HOLY SPIRIT working; evidence that one has received the Divine revelation of Who is The Son of the Living God, The Christ.

what else does Colossians say about baptism (which you are going to need to show me is JUST "Holy Ghost Baptism" - because the Bible clearly says ONE BAPTISM)?

having been buried with Him in baptism
in which you were also raised up with Him
through faith in the working of God
who raised Him from the dead

- having been buried with Him in baptism......in which.....you were also raised up with Him.....through faith in the working of God

oh....in which (baptism) you were buried and raised.....THROUGH FAITH IN THE WORKING OF GOD.

linked all together we have: burial; raising; through faith - in what and who? THE WORKING OF GOD.

- who raised Him from the dead

should Peter & Paul have said:

having been buried with Him in Holy Ghost Baptism.....in which......you were also raised up with Him....now go and be baptized in water for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Ghost?

does it say anything like that?
well, no. it does not.
and nothing you do can change what it says.

look again:

Colossians 2
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

- in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands
- in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ
- having been buried with Him in baptism
- in which you were also raised up with Him
- through faith in the working of God
- who raised Him from the dead
- When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh
- He made you alive together with Him
- having forgiven us all our transgressions

why is baptism in that passage at all, Red?
read it again and see about the circumcision made without hands.

is God working in Baptism? is that ACTUALLY what it says?

please show me how that is NOT what it says.

how many Baptisms are there:

Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

does Paul include baptism in this passage for no reason?
look at all the "ONES" (1's)
are these little ONEs...things we DO later if we get around to it?
or are ALL these ONEs things GOD does and has provided for US (remember, even when WE WERE DEAD he does these things and provides these thing - read Colossians again)

one body
one Spirit
one hope of your calling
one Lord
one faith
one baptism
one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

or should this say:

one body
one Spirit
one hope of your calling
one Lord
one faith
two baptisms
one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

? - help me out....baptism looks EXTREMELY important (Jesus has it commanded right in the crystal clear Great Commission, and did not say it was an outward display of identification with Him or the Church or anything like that).

one body
one Spirit
one hope
one Lord
one faith
one baptism
one God

since there is ONE baptism, you who think it is NOT water, really need to STOP baptizing people in water. stop it! there's only one, not two.

if it isn't water......stop doing it!

zone · Nov 6, 2013

does God reverse engineer the forgiveness of your sins sometime down the road when you have baptismal tank party?

does He wait until THEN to circumcise you with a circumcision not made with hands?

does He Baptize you INTO CHRIST, burying you with Him and raising you with Him, through the Spirit (faith in the Working of God Who raised HIM from the dead)...for the forgiveness of your sins.....THEN you receive the Holy Spirit?

or was Peter's Gospel different than Paul's, Red?

a different Dispensation...right?

but wait.....Peter was preaching AT and AFTER Pentecost when THEY were overwhelmed by the Power from On High.

why did he specifically say:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

help me on this....show where this changed.
where is the New Dispensation mark where this no longer the Commission (that Jesus gave THEM specifically).

Stephen63 · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

This comes from the LCMS website under water baptism:

What benefits does Baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins,rescues from death and the devil,
and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words
and promises of God declare. Which are these words and
promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of
Mark:“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,but whoever
does not believe will be condemned”(Mark 16:16).
In and through Baptism,God cleanses us from all of our
sins, snatches us from the power of Satan, and gives us everlasting
life.It is all God’s doing as He gives us His blessing.It is
His promise.In Baptism,our Triune God imparts to each of us
personally the gifts the Lord Jesus Christ won for the world
through His life,suffering,death,and resurrection.Please see
especially Gal.3:27;Col.1:13–14; 1 Peter 3:21;Titus 3:5–7 and
1 Cor.6:11.
Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod - Water Baptism

Would anyone want to comment on that?

>>>>bump<<<<

Stephen63 · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

****bump****

Stephen63 · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod - Water Baptism

Why are infants and young children baptized?
They are baptized for the same reason adults are baptized—
because of the command and promise of God.What is
promised in Baptism is given to all who receive it; therefore,
infants and young children also have the promise of God.They,
too, are made children of God.They, too, are included in the
words “all nations”(Matt.28:19). Jesus specifically invites little
children to come to Him (Luke 18:15–17).But most important,
as sinners,infants need what Baptism gives.
By His word,God created all that is seen and unseen.By
His word,our Lord Christ called a dead man from the tomb
(John 11:43–44).The unborn child,John the Baptist,leaped in
his mother’s womb when he heard the word of God (Luke
1:41–44).Why is there any doubt that in and through the Word
and the promise of Baptism,God works a similar gift of faith
in the infant? If we misunderstand Baptism to be our work,
then we will always cast doubt on it.When we recognize that it
is not our work,but God’s gracious promise and work,we realize
that infants are to be baptized and receive the treasures
offered in and through Baptism.
Sadly, there are individuals and church bodies that deny
Baptism to young children and infants.They do not believe
that these little ones need what Holy Baptism gives.They do
not believe what the Bible teaches so clearly,namely,that God
saves us through Baptism.As a result of these false teachings,
they deny both to themselves and to others the power,blessing
and comfort of Holy Baptism.That is tragic, for it is a most
serious offense against God to deny what He plainly declares in
His Word: “The promise is for you and your children”(Acts
2:39) and “Baptism now saves you”(1 Peter 3:21).
Conclusion
“We see what a great and excellent thing Baptism is,which
snatches us from the jaws of the devil and makes God our
own,overcomes and takes away sin and daily strengthens the
new man.It always remains until we pass from this present
misery to eternal glory”(Large Catechism).
The meaning, power and promise of Holy Baptism rest
entirely on the One who lived perfectly in our place and who
suffered and died as the sacrificial ransom for the sins of the
world.He rose victorious over death and the grave. In Holy
Baptism,we receive all the blessings of Christ’s atoning sacrifice.
Thank God for His gift of Holy Baptism!
1.The words in italics are from Luther’s Small Catechism.
2. WA 47:651,10-19,32-36.
— Dr.A.L.Barry
President
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Self-explanatory, wouldn't you say?

>>>>bump<<<<

zone · Nov 6, 2013

hi stephen.
you have some sources.

if you get time today, could you provide some here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...inal-pentecostal-movement-19.html#post1263467

thanks stephen.
zone

zone · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Self-explanatory, wouldn't you say?

yes. very much so.

so, is your thesis that you receive all the blessings promised in the New Covenant when you pray for the Second Blessing and speaking tongues and prophesy

is your proposal that people who practice water baptism are disobedient, stephen.

if not, why do you practice it....could you explain (or even better, provide a link to an authoritative source from your belief system) which shows from scripture why anyone should be baptized in water today.

k....ty

oh...one more thing:

do you as a Pastor, in your church, pray for and expect little children to receive Holy Ghost Baptism

[video=youtube;cQ4114XO-Xo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4114XO-Xo[/video]

what does Holy Ghost Baptism (little children) look like stephen.
do you then later baptize them in water....if so - why.

thank you.

Stephen63 · Nov 6, 2013

zone said:

That video is NOT an true example of the movement.

It may not happen today, nor tommorrow, but you will reap what you sow. When that happens, you will reap a harvest from the seeds you've sown. Your harvest will be great..... & no amount of ridiculing me will change it.

jimmydiggs · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

If you find a video of the true movemenet, PM a link to me.

zone · Nov 6, 2013

Stephen63 said:

oh for.....listen stephen....everyone is seeking Truth. okay?

this thread was started (i presume) to show why the LCMS is awful and whatnot. and that's fine.

the subject turned, as it invariably does - to baptism...particularly baptism of little children.

so, i asked you - a Pastor, who believes and teaches Holy Ghost Baptism, do you NOT pray for; desire; wish; expect; experience; teach that little children are/can be/should be baptized in the Holy Ghost.

forget that video, then.

the question is a fair one. if you don't baptize little children (in water), do you see and find and want them baptized in The Holy Ghost?

if so.....what does that LOOK LIKE - ie.: do they speak in tongues? how do you know WHEN someone has received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and is there an age limit?

do you refrain from praying for their Baptism in the Holy Ghost? if so - WHY? why would you, if it so the evidence of salvation (or power or whatever)?

....

these are reasonable questions....aren't they? what is the PROBLEM?

do you not know that we ALL have something at stake here? take some responsibility stephen.

Kingdom_Mystic · Nov 6, 2013

Thank God I was delivered from the Lutheran Missouri Synod. I read the Bible for myself decided to go to a nondenominational church. No more Lutherans Only at Lutheran altars or letting the Pastor telling me blindly what to believe.

zone · Nov 6, 2013

Kingdom_Mystic said:

hi Mystic:

Inner light – Christian concept and Quaker doctrine
An Noor – Islamic term and concept
Ein Sof – in Rabbinic Judaism
Tabor Light – in Eastern Orthodox theology
Theoria – in Christian theology, illumination on the path to theosis
Ayat an-Nur – in Arabic, the Sign of Light

is there a non-denominational (pop) version of these?
like, is Tabor Light "this little light of mine" for grown ups or summink?
what is it?

danschance · Nov 6, 2013

My father was a Lutheran, Pastor, Missouri synod. I grew up loving the Lord. Tho' I would not join this denomination today, but I still have found memories of growing up as a Lutheran. Later in life I joined another good Lutheran Church. Beyond this, I won't contribute to this thread.

BradC · Nov 6, 2013

zone said:

You are being partial to your own doctrine concerning water baptism and you neglect so much that would give you a balance in your understanding. We all have the scriptures available to us and we can read this passage in Acts 10. How do you read and understand the following that came also from the mouth of Peter at the house of Cornelius.

Acts 10:42-48 42 And he sent us to preach the Good News everywhere and to testify that Jesus is ordained of God to be the Judge of all—living and dead.43 And all the prophets have written about him, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those listening! 45 The Jews who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit would be given to Gentiles too! 46-47 But there could be no doubt about it,for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Peter asked, “Can anyone object to my baptizing them, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” 48 So he did, baptizing them in the name of Jesus, the Messiah. Afterwards Cornelius begged him to stay with them for several days.

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

zone · Nov 6, 2013

BradC said:

ye-e-e-e-e-s, use that transitional period when the SIGN [of], the Power from on High (particularly languages, a sign for the jews, btw) was poured out on the gentiles - to show the jews that the promise to include the gentiles was fulfilled.

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

so how many baptisms are there IF the overwhelming immersion with/by the Spirit at Pentecost (on Jews), then later on those gentiles was for that time only?

this is what you would presumably want to answer.

i don't know how you do it, in your flavor of dispensationalism: because what was promised to the church, was supposedly not promised to Israel.

is this how you do it? :

...

"It is therefore the mid-Acts Dispensational view that because Old Testament prophecies have temporarily ceased (1 Cor. 13:8), water baptism is no longer necessary (see 1 Cor.1:17; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:5); although it was absolutely required at one time for believers in the house of Israel (Mk.16:16; Acts 2:38). While some churches actually recognize the fact that belivers in the previous dispensation were required to be baptized, many of them still fail to understand the "mystery" that Paul speaks of. Consequently, they still allow (or maybe even require) their members to be baptized today. Others also fail to acknowledge that prophecy has temporarily ceased today, thereby relegating Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 13:8 to a future time. This study, then, will explore the purpose behind Old Testament baptism, and the reason why mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe it is no longer relevant."

Baptism: A Mid-Acts Dispensational View

"While some churches actually recognize the fact that belivers in the previous dispensation were required to be baptized, many of them still fail to understand the "mystery" that Paul speaks of." < oh right. that Mystery Gap.

BradC · Nov 6, 2013

Water baptism has nothing to do with nor has any connection with the completion of the canon of scriptures and you can't attribute this act of obedience as you do with the cessation of the gifts. Water baptism was instituted with believers after John's baptism of repentance had ceased with the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world. It was administered by water immersion to those who believed in the name of Jesus Christ, and after the resurrection of Christ it was administered to those who believed and had already been regenerated and washed clean by the blood of Christ. No one was baptized by water immersion unto regeneration and there is no NT grounds or scriptural record for infant baptism by immersion, by sprinkling or by proxy. How are we to understand 1 Cor 15:29?

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