The Original Pentecostal Movement

[zone]

...Christianity Today magazine posted on its website an interview with Pentecostal historian Vinson Synan. The occasion was the publication of Synan's new book, An Eyewitness Remembers the Century of the Holy Spirit (Chosen/Baker).


In response to a question about what was the high moment of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, Synan said, "The movement reached a climax in America around 1977 during the Kansas City conference, because all the different streams came together. The 50,000 people in the stadium showed the vigor and force that was sweeping the world."


Synan, dean emeritus of Regent University's School of Divinity, goes on to note that national television and magazine outlets covered the conference, which was officially titled, the Conference on Charismatic Renewal in the Christian Churches.

An example of that coverage was this article published in the August 8, 1977 issue of TIME magazine.

"At one point, the Rev. Bob Mumford, a nondenominational evangelist from California, halted his speech at the Arrowhead Stadium, where the Kansas City Chiefs play football, and called time out for a 'Holy Ghost break.' He began to shout: 'Glory to God! Jesus is Lord.' The audience rose and joined in," TIME reported.

The charismatic journal New Wine gave this account of the same moment, "That session was one of the highlights of the conference, especially in the middle of Bob's message, when, after he said, 'If you take a sneak look in the back of the book ... you find out that Jesus wins!' the entire crowd spontaneously broke into a five or ten minute period of uninterrupted praise and worship."

A video clip of the conference can be seen below. Five minutes of Mumford's talk can be seen beginning at the 15:30 mark.

Word & Spirit: Kansas City 1977




[video=youtube;o28Lc-m6xoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28Lc-m6xoE[/video]

Charismatic Renewal Conference Kansas City 1977

Edited footage of the Charismatic Renewal Conference held in Kansas City's Arrowhead Stadium in 1977 put on by the North American Renewal Service Committee. Includes parts of sermons by J.O Patterson, Maria Von Trapp, Bob Mumford, Larry Christenson

...


i had not seen this video before...hmmm....

 

[zone]

In 1960, in Van Nuys, California, the modern Charismatic movement began in an Episcopalian Church (St. Mark's, with Dennis Bennett as rector). There was an outburst of tongues speaking in this church. This event was so significant that both Time and Newsweek covered the story. After that, the movement spread like wildfire in the Episcopalian Church and then among Lutherans and Presbyterians as well.

The movement soon entered the universities. This began in New England. In October of 1962, the glossolalia phenomenon broke out at Yale University, among members of the Evangelical Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. Included in this new-Pentecostal revival were Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and even one Roman Catholic. Five were members of Phi Beta Kappa, and some were religious leaders on campus (they were soon called "GLOSSO YALIES").

Thereafter, the movement spread to Dartmouth College, Stanford University, and Princeton Theological Seminary.

Even more significant than these events is what happened in 1967. All roads lead to Rome. At the time of Spring vacation in 1967, there were in the Notre Dame area about 30 zealous Catholics who had received the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." In 1968, about 100 to 150 met for a Catholic Pentecostal conference. In 1969, there were about 450 Catholic Charismatics who met including about 25 or 30 priests. In 1970, the increase was more spectacular. Almost 1,300 attended the conference, including Catholics from Canada. In 1973, 22,000 Catholic Charismatics met together at Notre Dame, including Catholic participants from at least 10 foreign countries. In 1974, the Notre Dame conference was attended by 30,000 people. And finally, the 1975 international conference held in Rome attracted 10,000 pilgrims from 50 countries to hear Pope Paul VI express his warm appreciation for the movement. The movement was mushrooming not only in the Roman Catholic Church, but in all of the major Protestant denominations.

The Kansas City Charismatic Conference was held in the summer of 1977. All three wings of the Pentecostal movement were present: (1) Old Pentecostals (sometimes called "classical Pentecostals"); (2) Protestant Charismatics; and (3) Catholic Charismatics. This was the biggest and most inclusive gathering of "baptized in the Spirit believers" in modern history. There were nearly 50,000 participants in this 5-day conference. One speaker proudly hailed this conference as "the largest and most inclusive ecumenical assembly in the history of American Christianity." Almost half of the participants were Roman Catholics.

A newspaper article published in 1977 (AP), reported that there were 10 million charismatics in America (5 million Classical Pentecostals and 5 Million New Pentecostals). Thus, the new charismatic movement grew to 5 million in only 17 years (1960 to 1977)! Today, the movement is still very much alive and growing, although we probably will not see the same kind of mushrooming growth as we saw in the '60s and early '70s. The 1/7/83 Christianity Today reported that the Assembly of God denomination (Pentecostal) is the fastest growing American denomination. At that time there were 1.6 million Assembly of God adherents and the number was growing fast.

The New Charismatics are not separatist but rather reformist in character. They are not interested in separating from old ecclesiastical structures. Rather, they are told to stay in these churches and to renew them by their continued presence within. This is what is meant by Charismatic Renewal.

A Brief History of Pentecostalism


GLOSSO YALIES
i did not know this before either.

 

[Stephen63]

Maybe you can understand then why consistantly rotten fruit would lead us to believe the tree is rotten too.

REALLY? Boy, if that's the case, LCMS must be totally rotten to the core judging by your standard if you count the LCMS's in this thread! (With the exception of Tintin, of course)

 

[zone]

anyway.....carrying on with history - attempting to find or develop an acceptable Timeline - with anyone from the movement willing to contribute to correcting what they might consider errors...so the basic historical framework is understood.

...


Four Groups Addressing Spiritual Gifts Today

Today’s discussions and positions on spiritual gifts fall into one of four
general positions. A brief survey of positions underlines the breadth of thought and
conviction about the gifts and the need for biblical clarity.

Classic Pentecostalism – The historic beginning of the modern tongues
movement is traced to Bethel Bible School of Topeka, Kansas, founded in 1900
by Charles Parham (1873-1929). Parham encouraged his students to examine
the apostolic age for a witness of the baptism of the Holy Spirit available today
as an event subsequent to salvation. One of his students, Miss Agnes Ozman,
requested that hands be laid on her to receive the Holy Spirit, and according to
Parham, she responded by speaking only in the Chinese language, unable to
speak her native English for the next three days. Parham considered this the
restoration of the Pentecostal power of the Book of Acts.12 Nichol points out that
the significance of the Topeka event was that “for the first time the concept of
being baptized (or filled) with the Holy Spirit was linked to an outward
sign—speaking in tongues.”13 Parham began an evangelistic effort in various
cities which he identified as “Pentecostal” or the “Full Gospel,” reaching as high
as 25,000 Pentecostal converts in Texas alone by 1905.14 William Seymour
(1870-1922) came in contact with Parham’s preaching in Houston and then was
called to Los Angeles, where he lead the renowned Azusa Street Revival (1906-
1909). Based at the Azusa Street Mission (312 Azusa Street), Seymour spoke in
tongues for the first time on April 9, 1906. Seymour’s activities associated with
the Azusa Street Revival launched American Pentecostalism, and Azusa Street
became a “veritable Pentecostal Mecca to which pilgrims from all over the world
came and from which the news of supernatural signs and wonders was broadcast.
”15 Representatives of this position include The Assemblies of God, The
Church of God in Christ, and Aimee Semple McPherson’s (1890-1944)
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.16

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

END summary Classic Pentecostalism history.

any errors?

 

[Kerry]

yes the Holy Ghost. The one that you refuse. People were saved, healed , and set free did the devil do that. How can Satan cast out satan. Come on zone, you are smarter than this.

 

[zone]

yes the Holy Ghost. The one that you refuse. People were saved, healed , and set free did the devil do that. How can Satan cast out satan. Come on zone, you are smarter than this.

incomplete post - do not know to what you are referring - yes the Holy Ghost

people were saved...healed....and set free at the Toronto Blessing

restate your assertion Kerry.

yes the Holy Ghost. The one that you refuse.

oh pur - double - eeze.

maybe your idea of a holy ghost

 

[zone]

anyway.....carrying on with history - attempting to find or develop an acceptable Timeline - with anyone from the movement willing to contribute to correcting what they might consider errors...so the basic historical framework is understood.

...


Four Groups Addressing Spiritual Gifts Today

Today’s discussions and positions on spiritual gifts fall into one of four
general positions. A brief survey of positions underlines the breadth of thought and
conviction about the gifts and the need for biblical clarity.

Classic Pentecostalism – The historic beginning of the modern tongues
movement is traced to Bethel Bible School of Topeka, Kansas, founded in 1900
by Charles Parham (1873-1929). Parham encouraged his students to examine
the apostolic age for a witness of the baptism of the Holy Spirit available today
as an event subsequent to salvation. One of his students, Miss Agnes Ozman,
requested that hands be laid on her to receive the Holy Spirit, and according to
Parham, she responded by speaking only in the Chinese language, unable to
speak her native English for the next three days. Parham considered this the
restoration of the Pentecostal power of the Book of Acts.12 Nichol points out that
the significance of the Topeka event was that “for the first time the concept of
being baptized (or filled) with the Holy Spirit was linked to an outward
sign—speaking in tongues.”13 Parham began an evangelistic effort in various
cities which he identified as “Pentecostal” or the “Full Gospel,” reaching as high
as 25,000 Pentecostal converts in Texas alone by 1905.14 William Seymour
(1870-1922) came in contact with Parham’s preaching in Houston and then was
called to Los Angeles, where he lead the renowned Azusa Street Revival (1906-
1909). Based at the Azusa Street Mission (312 Azusa Street), Seymour spoke in
tongues for the first time on April 9, 1906. Seymour’s activities associated with
the Azusa Street Revival launched American Pentecostalism, and Azusa Street
became a “veritable Pentecostal Mecca to which pilgrims from all over the world
came and from which the news of supernatural signs and wonders was broadcast.
”15 Representatives of this position include The Assemblies of God, The
Church of God in Christ, and Aimee Semple McPherson’s (1890-1944)
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.16

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

END summary Classic Pentecostalism history.

any errors?

no (waiting for Kerry to actually respond with something) hi Kerry....



The Charismatic Movement – or Neo-Pentecostalism, began in the mid-1950s
largely through the efforts of the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship
International of Los Angeles, and the efforts of Assemblies of God minister
David J. du Plessis (1905-1987),17 who promoted the Pentecostal experience to
the non-Pentecostal denominations. On August 3, 1960, Episcopal priest
Dennis Bennett (1917- ) of St Marks Church in Van Nuys, California, announced
in his pulpit that he had been baptized of the Holy Spirit and then went on to
speak in tongues. Bennett came under immediate criticism and resigned after the
third of three services the same day. The matter, however, was so widely
publicized that this event is often viewed as the founding the Charismatic
Movement, as it spread to every major denomination and cut across all
theological boundaries.18 Dunn observed that this new Pentecostalism “has now
become a movement of world-wide importance, reckoned as a third force in
Christendom (alongside Catholicism and Protestantism) by not a few leading
churchmen.”19

In the movement, there was less concern for the nature of the new
birth and great stress was placed on Spirit baptism and tongues.20 In the quest
for expanded research and doctrinal respectability, the Society for Pentecostal
Studies was formed in 1970. Important aspects include, Trinity Broadcasting
Network, begun by Paul Crouch in 1973, The International Catholic Charismatic
Conference in Rome, 1975, and the rise after 1980 of prominent televangelists,
including Oral Roberts and son Richard, Kenneth Hagin, Pat Robertson, Rex
Humbard, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Jim Bakker, and Benny Hinn
(Miracle Crusades).21

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

any errors so far....

 

[SarahM777]

I don't think I missed the point at all. Paul said through the Holy Spirit - Prophecy is greater EXCEPT tongues are interpreted. The person speaking in tongues should interpret - "for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, EXCEPT HE INTERPRET, that the church may receive edifying." That is what the FULL SCRIPTURE says - it didn't end with "greater is he that prophesieth" - PERIOD. Tongues is also used for the edifying of the church when interpreted. That is what scripture says.

UMMM Sorry you still don't get at all what I am asking. Tongues does sense in a congregation that DOES NOT ALL SPEAK THE SAME language. The question again is why would God use tongues in a congregation that ALL speaks the very same language instead of prophesying? The gifts of the Holy Spirit are to edify the church. Paul even says tongues are UNFRUITFUL if one can NOT understand what is being said. Paul is very clear that if there is no interpreter tongues can NOT produce fruit,where as prophesying would produce fruit becomes everyone would understand the language being spoken.

So again God being God knowing that there is NO INTERPRETER use tongues in a congregation that ALL speak the very same language use tongues INSTEAD of prophesying? Because that is what Paul is saying tongues in those cases CAN NOT produce where as prophesying can.

 

[zone]

The Charismatic Movement – or Neo-Pentecostalism, began in the mid-1950s
largely through the efforts of the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship
International of Los Angeles, and the efforts of Assemblies of God minister
David J. du Plessis (1905-1987),17 who promoted the Pentecostal experience to
the non-Pentecostal denominations. On August 3, 1960, Episcopal priest
Dennis Bennett (1917- ) of St Marks Church in Van Nuys, California, announced
in his pulpit that he had been baptized of the Holy Spirit and then went on to
speak in tongues. Bennett came under immediate criticism and resigned after the
third of three services the same day. The matter, however, was so widely
publicized that this event is often viewed as the founding the Charismatic
Movement, as it spread to every major denomination and cut across all
theological boundaries.18 Dunn observed that this new Pentecostalism “has now
become a movement of world-wide importance, reckoned as a third force in
Christendom (alongside Catholicism and Protestantism) by not a few leading
churchmen.”19

In the movement, there was less concern for the nature of the new
birth and great stress was placed on Spirit baptism and tongues.20 In the quest
for expanded research and doctrinal respectability, the Society for Pentecostal
Studies was formed in 1970. Important aspects include, Trinity Broadcasting
Network, begun by Paul Crouch in 1973, The International Catholic Charismatic
Conference in Rome, 1975, and the rise after 1980 of prominent televangelists,
including Oral Roberts and son Richard, Kenneth Hagin, Pat Robertson, Rex
Humbard, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Jim Bakker, and Benny Hinn
(Miracle Crusades).21

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

any errors so far....

Third Wave Theology - p.5

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf


end Histories of (3) movements..

........

any corrections:

 

[Stephen63]

...Christianity Today magazine posted on its website an interview with Pentecostal historian Vinson Synan. The occasion was the publication of Synan's new book, An Eyewitness Remembers the Century of the Holy Spirit (Chosen/Baker).


In response to a question about what was the high moment of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, Synan said, "The movement reached a climax in America around 1977 during the Kansas City conference, because all the different streams came together. The 50,000 people in the stadium showed the vigor and force that was sweeping the world."


Synan, dean emeritus of Regent University's School of Divinity, goes on to note that national television and magazine outlets covered the conference, which was officially titled, the Conference on Charismatic Renewal in the Christian Churches.

An example of that coverage was this article published in the August 8, 1977 issue of TIME magazine.

"At one point, the Rev. Bob Mumford, a nondenominational evangelist from California, halted his speech at the Arrowhead Stadium, where the Kansas City Chiefs play football, and called time out for a 'Holy Ghost break.' He began to shout: 'Glory to God! Jesus is Lord.' The audience rose and joined in," TIME reported.

The charismatic journal New Wine gave this account of the same moment, "That session was one of the highlights of the conference, especially in the middle of Bob's message, when, after he said, 'If you take a sneak look in the back of the book ... you find out that Jesus wins!' the entire crowd spontaneously broke into a five or ten minute period of uninterrupted praise and worship."

A video clip of the conference can be seen below. Five minutes of Mumford's talk can be seen beginning at the 15:30 mark.

Word & Spirit: Kansas City 1977




[video=youtube;o28Lc-m6xoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28Lc-m6xoE[/video]

Charismatic Renewal Conference Kansas City 1977

Edited footage of the Charismatic Renewal Conference held in Kansas City's Arrowhead Stadium in 1977 put on by the North American Renewal Service Committee. Includes parts of sermons by J.O Patterson, Maria Von Trapp, Bob Mumford, Larry Christenson

...


i had not seen this video before...hmmm....

How many of you saw increases in attendance in your churches during 1976-83? I remember our church went from the 60's to over 110 during that time with many getting saved & going back to their family's home churches afterward. Just curious if other denominations had the same increase.

 

[zone]

How many of you saw increases in attendance in your churches during 1976-83? I remember our church went from the 60's to over 110 during that time with many getting saved & going back to their family's home churches afterward. Just curious if other denominations had the same increase.

well i can't answer that.

but i have a question:

" our church went from the 60's to over 110 during that time with many getting saved & going back to their family's home churches afterward."

so, i assume you mean unsaved people who were raised in (for example) a Roman Catholic family, came to your church after the kansas city event....got saved at your church...then joined the Roman Catholic Church?

is that right?

 

[SarahM777]

How many of you saw increases in attendance in your churches during 1976-83? I remember our church went from the 60's to over 110 during that time with many getting saved & going back to their family's home churches afterward. Just curious if other denominations had the same increase.

HMM Well ours is a bit mixed because about 4 years ago the church split because one of the pastors left and started another church. But at this time the church is growing again. They are looking to build a larger sanctuary because the church can no longer hold all the members in three services any more. About a month ago we had some ex-muslims (Mother and daughter) being saved and baptized.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

UMMM Sorry you still don't get at all what I am asking. Tongues does sense in a congregation that DOES NOT ALL SPEAK THE SAME language.

Well, I apologize if I haven't understood your question - but I do believe that I did answer the question with scripture in context. You keep saying that prophesy is greater than tongues and yes, scripture does state that - but in that same sentence of scripture, it says "except tongues are interpreted".

The question again is why would God use tongues in a congregation that ALL speaks the very same language instead of prophesying? The gifts of the Holy Spirit are to edify the church. Paul even says tongues are UNFRUITFUL if one can NOT understand what is being said. Paul is very clear that if there is no interpreter tongues can NOT produce fruit,where as prophesying would produce fruit becomes everyone would understand the language being spoken.

When tongues are interpreted - the interpretation will be understood in the church and will edify the body of Christ.
Sarah - Please read it ALL together
For if I pray in an tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful - (note: when he prays) What is it then?
I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also (again when he prays) When a person prays in the spirit, he edifies himself. If a person speaks in an tongue in the church, a group - he must interpret so all will understand and all will be edified. And again - these are manifestations of the Spirit - v7 of 1 Cor. the subject changes from spiritual matters or spiritual things (gifts is added) with the word BUT the manifestations of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal . . . . then lists the manifestations - healing being the only one specified as "gifts" because all healing is a gift from God.

So again God being God knowing that there is NO INTERPRETER use tongues in a congregation that ALL speak the very same language use tongues INSTEAD of prophesying? Because that is what Paul is saying tongues in those cases CAN NOT produce where as prophesying can.

The one speaking in tongues should interpret - he should pray that he interpret - and if the one speaking in tongues doesn't believe that he can or will interpret - let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God. Wherefore covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

If I haven't answered your question by now . . . I don't think I can answer to your satisfaction.

 

[Enow]

How many of you saw increases in attendance in your churches during 1976-83? I remember our church went from the 60's to over 110 during that time with many getting saved & going back to their family's home churches afterward. Just curious if other denominations had the same increase.

Preaching Jesus Christ & Him crucified is the means from which people are saved: preaching Pentecost and prepping believers to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign is not the gospel and it has never been a point of teaching in any NT books.

So this warning comes to mind...

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Alot of sinners are going the rudiment of the world in seeking directly after spirits & receiving them, but the difference in the one true gospel is all invitations points to the Son so that is why the way is narrow.

 

[jimmydiggs]

REALLY? Boy, if that's the case, LCMS must be totally rotten to the core judging by your standard if you count the LCMS's in this thread! (With the exception of Tintin, of course)

My feelings about the LCMS are very uneasy. For more important reasons though.

The problem is, the LCMS has produced some good fruit, whereas pentecostalism has not offered any good fruit thus far. Pentecostalism is always theologically bankrupt. There are continuationists who aren't pentecostals, and aren't theologically bankrupt. C.J. Mahaney, and Wayne Grudem would be a couple of examples.

 

[SarahM777]

Well, I apologize if I haven't understood your question - but I do believe that I did answer the question with scripture in context. You keep saying that prophesy is greater than tongues and yes, scripture does state that - but in that same sentence of scripture, it says "except tongues are interpreted".

When tongues are interpreted - the interpretation will be understood in the church and will edify the body of Christ.
Sarah - Please read it ALL together
For if I pray in an tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful - (note: when he prays) What is it then?
I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also (again when he prays) When a person prays in the spirit, he edifies himself. If a person speaks in an tongue in the church, a group - he must interpret so all will understand and all will be edified.And again - these are manifestations of the Spirit - v7 of 1 Cor. the subject changes from spiritual matters or spiritual things (gifts is added) with the word BUT the manifestations of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal . . . . then lists the manifestations - healing being the only one specified as "gifts" because all healing is a gift from God.

The one speaking in tongues should interpret - he should pray that he interpret - and if the one speaking in tongues doesn't believe that he can or will interpret - let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God. Wherefore covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

If I haven't answered your question by now . . . I don't think I can answer to your satisfaction.

Thank you for your attempt to answer the question,but you keep going around the question I actually asked.

 

[Enow]

If I haven't answered your question by now . . . I don't think I can answer to your satisfaction.

The question again is why would God use tongues in a congregation that ALL speaks the very same language instead of prophesying?

Answer: God would not bother manifesting the gift of tongues in a congregation where everybody speaks the same language. Instead, He would manifest prophesy for the edification of the church.

If manifestation is for the profit of withall, then manifesting tongues and then manifesting the interpretation of tongues in a congregation that speaks the same language is utter & complete vanity when manifesting prophesying would be quicker and to the purpose for which God would be manifesting and that is to the edification of the assembly.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Now here is Paul led by the Spirit of God to exhort the believers at Corinth that if they seek a spiritual gift that they seek it in the manner that would edify the church. So it would be contrary to what the Spirit of God led Paul to say if He operated in a runabout way in edifying an assembly that all spoke the same language...especially when tongues are being manifested that did not come with interpretation at all, let alone understood by any one that was not a foreignor in that assembly. This is where not believing every spirit but test them comes in.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There is a supernatural tongue that can be found in the occult, world's religions like Islam, & cults in christianity which is babbling nonsense as it comes with no interpretation.

Joyce Meyers "tried" to translate a tongue one time and said she got the "sense" or "feeling" of what the message was, and that is NOT how one interprets God's gift of tongues. Anybody can be babbling nonsense and guess what that person was saying, winging it for whatever it is worth.

Believers have faked tongues.... and believers have faked interpreting the tongues. One church thought they had the actual God's gift of tongues that comes with interpretation and so they had hired a linguist to record and translate it only to find that it was babbling nonsense... so that means those interpeting it were winging it to fit in just as much as those faking tongues were as well....( although they could be speaking the supernatural tongue which is nonsense and not just faking it with babytalk).

Since God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints, then God would not go about in a runabout way manifesting tongues in a congregation that all speak the same language. We are edified by the word understood... otherwise it is unfruitful & circumspect as just cause to test the spirits & the tongues that comes with it.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Answer: God would not bother manifesting the gift of tongues in a congregation where everybody speaks the same language. Instead, He would manifest prophesy for the edification of the church.

Wrong - why is every one forebiding tongues? 14:5b - for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Both edify the church.

If manifestation is for the profit of withall, then manifesting tongues and then manifesting the interpretation of tongues in a congregation that speaks the same language is utter & complete vanity when manifesting prophesying would be quicker and to the purpose for which God would be manifesting and that is to the edification of the assembly.

Again, both prophesy and tongues with interpretation edify the church.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Keep reading v13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret.

Now here is Paul led by the Spirit of God to exhort the believers at Corinth that if they seek a spiritual gift that they seek it in the manner that would edify the church. So it would be contrary to what the Spirit of God led Paul to say if He operated in a runabout way in edifying an assembly that all spoke the same language...especially when tongues are being manifested that did not come with interpretation at all, let alone understood by any one that was not a foreignor in that assembly. This is where not believing every spirit but test them comes in.

You are right that tongues without interpretation is contrary to what Paul, by the Spirit, was saying. That's why he corrects them: If any man speak in an tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three and that by course (in order); and let one interpret.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There is a supernatural tongue that can be found in the occult, world's religions like Islam, & cults in christianity which is babbling nonsense as it comes with no interpretation.

Joyce Meyers "tried" to translate a tongue one time and said she got the "sense" or "feeling" of what the message was, and that is NOT how one interprets God's gift of tongues. Anybody can be babbling nonsense and guess what that person was saying, winging it for whatever it is worth.

Believers have faked tongues.... and believers have faked interpreting the tongues. One church thought they had the actual God's gift of tongues that comes with interpretation and so they had hired a linguist to record and translate it only to find that it was babbling nonsense... so that means those interpeting it were winging it to fit in just as much as those faking tongues were as well....( although they could be speaking the supernatural tongue which is nonsense and not just faking it with babytalk).

We can test what is going on by the scripture. If it is not being done in the manner of 1 Cor. 14:27 - then it's not being done decently and in order. All the other stuff I won't comment on.

Since God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints, then God would not go about in a runabout way manifesting tongues in a congregation that all speak the same language. We are edified by the word understood... otherwise it is unfruitful & circumspect as just cause to test the spirits & the tongues that comes with it.

All the instructions concerning operating the manifestations in the church are in Chapter 14 - I believe that speaking in tongues with interpretation is included in this instruction.

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I wrote unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Enow]

Wrong - why is every one forebiding tongues? 14:5b - for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Both edify the church.

Why exhort the gift of prophesy over the gift of tongues thru out that chapter? Because the gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift as it must come with interpretation to edify the church and even to be fruitful to the tongue speaker.

It is not about forbidding tongues, but questioning the roundabout way as to why God would manifest tongues in a church where everybody speak the same language. It is circumspect when God tells the saints to seek spiritual gifts to edify the body which is why the gift of prophesy was above all spiritual gift.... and yet He manifests tongues and then interpretation in an assembly where no one else speaks a different language? By hsi exhortation to seek the gift of prophesy over tongues, He would just manifest the gift of porphesy in edifying that particular assembly.

Corinth was a crossroad for foreign travellers and so that is why the church at Corinth may be frequented by visitors.

1 Corinthians 14:28 was Paul signifying that if anyone speaks in tongues that comes with no interpretation, then he was to be told to be silent because he understands what he is saying as God does too, which was Paul's way of identifying a foreignor speaking out of turn because he knows what he is saying which was not God's gift of tongues.

Again, both prophesy and tongues with interpretation edify the church.

Keep reading v13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret.

You are right that tongues without interpretation is contrary to what Paul, by the Spirit, was saying. That's why he corrects them: If any man speak in an tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three and that by course (in order); and let one interpret.

We can test what is going on by the scripture. If it is not being done in the manner of 1 Cor. 14:27 - then it's not being done decently and in order. All the other stuff I won't comment on.

All the instructions concerning operating the manifestations in the church are in Chapter 14 - I believe that speaking in tongues with interpretation is included in this instruction.

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I wrote unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

The commandments of the Lord was Paul addressing women to be silent in the churches. This also is just cause to test tongues when women speak in tongues which is contrary to God's commandment for them to be silent in the churches.

So record the tongues, and have it tested by a linguist because we are warned not to believe eveyer spirit but test them.

 

[Kerry]

wow, so the tongues must be approved by man. wow.