Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

[PlainWord]

Contrast this with 1 Thess. 4:17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
and John 14:3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

These verses speak of Christ returning and taking us up with Him to heaven. They may just have a general meaning to the post-trib position, but they have a specific meaning to the pre-trib position. Stop saying there are no verses showing the Lord back in heaven.

Just where do you see the above saying the Lord is back in heaven or takes us back with him??? Do you see the clouds as heaven? Seriously? You look up at the white puffing things in the sky and think that's where heaven is?? I'm just trying to understand how you can go from "CLOUDS" to "HEAVEN."

Now I want you to read on in the same passage. Just because man but chapters and verses in Paul's letter doesn't mean Paul did. Paul wrote a letter, just like you or I would without chapters and verses. Look closely at the subject, it is the Day of the Lord AKA the Day the Lord returns. I am going to cut and paste the applicable portion of 1 Thes 4 and 5 together back in letter form without the verse numbers. I want you to look closely as Paul gives the timing here, just as he does in 2 Thes 2.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

This all goes together. Read it as such. You are told details about when the Lord returns and how we are gathered. Paul calls it, "THE DAY OF THE LORD." Paul is not speaking of an earlier return in 1 Thes 4:16-17, he is speaking of the ONLY return of the Lord. If you notice we are to comfort one another in the first paragraph and in the last paragraph. The audience hasn't changed. Paul isn't speaking to two groups. Paul isn't saying to comfort those who will be Raptured and comfort those who have to wait through the Tribulation. Paul is saying to comfort ONE ANOTHER as we are doing.

Look at the inclusive words in blue. Paul includes himself in this group. We are not to let this day overtake us as a thief. Let us not sleep, let us watch... Paul also discusses "THEM", the unsaved. Sudden destruction comes upon them when??? The Day of the Lord. Destructions doesn't come on us, because we are now with him.

 

[konroh]

I appreciate the study of the 144K, but it seems that "sexual immorality" can have both a literal and figurative meaning which must be determined by context. To read a figurative meaning back into "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" seems very un-Plain. The fact is, the Great Tribulation will be unparalleled, being pregnant and nursing babies requires great time and energy, and when you're running to the mountains to escape calamity, you will feel great woe being pregnant and nursing.

I do agree about the inclusiveness in 1 Thess, I really do. God's truth doesn't change whether it's before, during or after the Tribulation. But looking for the "day of the Lord" is something that one can do before, during or after the Tribulation. The "day of the Lord" is an OT concept that includes God finally judging all the enemies against Him and His people, the Messiah coming to earth, both as Jesus already did and as He will do again, and the restoration of His people to an everlasting prosperity, both physically and spiritually.

The day of the Lord is the answer to all calamity we see, all evil, and satisfies the hope and yearning that the whole earth "groans for."

I think Paul specifically reveals the new "word of the Lord" message of the Rapture purposefully in ch. 4 before discussing the "day of the Lord" in ch. 5. If we are Raptured out then we have no need to wait for the "day of the Lord," but Paul and the Thessalonians hadn't been Raptured, and neither have we. Therefore we still wait and not lose hope (sleep). Notice that Paul uses the metaphor of being awake or asleep as a metaphor for being prepared/waiting versus being unprepared. This hope of expectation has meaning now, will have meaning to Tribulation saints, and will have meaning forever.

 

[PlainWord]

I would like to clear up this "IMMANENCY" doctrine problem many Pre-Tribbers seem to be having. This only applies to those who are not watching. If you are watching, the Lord does not come as a thief. If you are NOT watching, you will miss the warnings and sudden destruction will befall you. Remember, it will be as in the Days of Noah. Everything will be calm then suddenly, WHAM.

 

[PlainWord]

I do agree about the inclusiveness in 1 Thess, I really do. God's truth doesn't change whether it's before, during or after the Tribulation. But looking for the "day of the Lord" is something that one can do before, during or after the Tribulation. The "day of the Lord" is an OT concept that includes God finally judging all the enemies against Him and His people, the Messiah coming to earth, both as Jesus already did and as He will do again, and the restoration of His people to an everlasting prosperity, both physically and spiritually.

The day of the Lord is the answer to all calamity we see, all evil, and satisfies the hope and yearning that the whole earth "groans for."

You've nailed it here!!!! Good for you. Keep in mind this "DAY" lasts 1,000 years. It encompasses the whole Millennium. The Lord doesn't do all these things in one literal earth day. 2 Peter 3:8. Heck, they are burying the dead for 7 months after Armageddon. Keep in mind also that people on earth see the "sign" of the Lord's coming, otherwise there will be no time to hide in caves.

OT concept or not, prophesy doesn't change and God's Word doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.. THE OT DAY OF THE LORD and THE NT DAY OF THE LORD are identical!!! We just have more details from Paul than we had from the Lord and OT prophets.

 

[PlainWord]

I think Paul specifically reveals the new "word of the Lord" message of the Rapture purposefully in ch. 4 before discussing the "day of the Lord" in ch. 5. If we are Raptured out then we have no need to wait for the "day of the Lord," but Paul and the Thessalonians hadn't been Raptured, and neither have we. Therefore we still wait and not lose hope (sleep). Notice that Paul uses the metaphor of being awake or asleep as a metaphor for being prepared/waiting versus being unprepared. This hope of expectation has meaning now, will have meaning to Tribulation saints, and will have meaning forever.

No No No No!!! Paul is not revealing a new return of the Lord known as the Rapture!!! Please don't even start to think that. The Lord has told us ALL THINGS!!! He didn't get back to heaven sit down with God and decide to add an additional return and give it to Paul to teach us. Do you really believe that!! Do you think God does things on the fly?? He has known from the foundation of the earth who will believe in Him and who will not. He has known who will be deceived by Satan and who will not.

Just about every lesson in the OT has applications for us today and into the future. The OT gives us great insight into how the Father will handle things to come. I could literally write a book about it, by I digress.

Paul is only giving us further details and explanations of the resurrection and the gathering of the remnant when the Lord returns. He is not teaching us a whole new separate return of the Lord. If you put the Pre-Trib Rapture idea out of your head for one moment and re-read everything in the light of ONE RETURN AFTER the TRIBULATION you can see how everything fits.

The "awake" simply means alive. "Asleep" means physically dead but alive spiritually in heaven. It isn't some metaphor about being prepared or not. The metaphors for that are "seeing" or "being blind." Take the Rapture Goggles off my friend and you will see the REAL plan the Lord has for us. It is even more glorious than flying away in a cloud and missing out on the opportunity to stand up and fight Satan to stand up for God when the chips are down and the world is against us. Do you want to be like the 32,000 that Gideon did NOT choose who were sent home or part of the 300 hand picked men who accomplished a great feat for God??

 

[LT]

You've nailed it here!!!! Good for you. Keep in mind this "DAY" lasts 1,000 years. It encompasses the whole Millennium. The Lord doesn't do all these things in one literal earth day. 2 Peter 3:8. Heck, they are burying the dead for 7 months after Armageddon. Keep in mind also that people on earth see the "sign" of the Lord's coming, otherwise there will be no time to hide in caves.

OT concept or not, prophesy doesn't change and God's Word doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.. THE OT DAY OF THE LORD and THE NT DAY OF THE LORD are identical!!! We just have more details from Paul than we had from the Lord and OT prophets.

I am not convinced that the 'millennium' must be figurative, or that the rapture must be post-trib. I find the Scripture points more towards these, but lacks evidence for both sides. I see an intentional lack of clarity on these topics, and see too many people trying to make clear what God leaves blurry.
People make the same mistake when speaking about election, eternal security, man's free will, or God's Sovereignty.

Let's not go too far. Just because we recognize that one side is lacking proof, doesn't mean that the other side is right.

 

[PlainWord]

I appreciate the study of the 144K, but it seems that "sexual immorality" can have both a literal and figurative meaning which must be determined by context. To read a figurative meaning back into "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" seems very un-Plain.

Knowing when to apply this literally or spiritually is perhaps the biggest challenge in understanding prophesy. I will admit that. But in this case, I've researched it extensively and concluded in my mind that both are to be taken spiritually.

There is nothing wrong with being married, or a widower, or even divorced for the right reasons, and not a virgin. That should not disqualify you from being one of the ELECT. Also, to be with child is a blessing specifically from God. It is not a curse.

In the case of the Lord referring to "pregnant or nursing" you have to take the context of the whole passage. The Abomination is seen in verse 15 followed by 5 verses of warnings and instructions. The next action, verse 21 is the start of the Great Tribulation.

Verses 16 - 18 tell those in Judea to get out of "Dodge" fast!!! They are to physically leave. Why? Because armies are coming to destroy them. "Flee to the mountains" could mean the literal mountains or could mean to flee to other nations or both. I am leaning towards "flee to other safer nations."

Verse 19-20 are spiritual. No person can have any control over the literal state they are in when the abomination is seen. Granted, it probably would be easier to travel without being pregnant or nursing but winter or sabbath makes no sense if taken literally. There would be less traffic on the sabbath thus easier to flee. It seldom snows in Israel so the winter makes no sense. What does make sense is harvest. If you are being harvest in the winter, you are being harvested out of season. If you are being harvested on the sabbath you are violating law. The Lord gives us this hint in verse 32 that he is talking about the "harvest" of souls which dovetails nicely to John's discussion of the same.

 

[PlainWord]

I am not convinced that the 'millennium' must be figurative, or that the rapture must be post-trib. I find the Scripture points more towards these, but lacks evidence for both sides. I see an intentional lack of clarity on these topics, and see too many people trying to make clear what God leaves blurry.
People make the same mistake when speaking about election, eternal security, man's free will, or God's Sovereignty.

Let's not go too far. Just because we recognize that one side is lacking proof, doesn't mean that the other side is right.

Would you agree there is only ONE TRUTH!! So why not go with what the obvious version?? The Word is VERY, VERY CLEAR. ONLY MAN IS CONFUSED ABOUT IT, well some men are.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation... 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When you read the above what conclusions do you draw?

As for the millennium being a literal 1,000 years we have several places that give us that (although I'm sure to get an argument from Zone). We have Rev 20:1-7 and we have 2 Peter 3:8 and we have Isaiah 65:20 that talks about children being 100 years old. Isaiah 65:22 talks about people living as long as trees, those planting the trees will eat of its fruit, etc. Ezekiel 40-48 describes the Lord's reign on earth. Clearly we have not seen anything like this period yet.

Consider that the number 7 means COMPLETION. It was roughly 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus and 2,000 years since so another 1,000 year period before God returns and creates a new heaven and new earth seems about right.

 

[LT]

Would you agree there is only ONE TRUTH!! So why not go with what the obvious version?? The Word is VERY, VERY CLEAR. ONLY MAN IS CONFUSED ABOUT IT, well some men are.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation... 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When you read the above what conclusions do you draw?

As for the millennium being a literal 1,000 years we have several places that give us that (although I'm sure to get an argument from Zone). We have Rev 20:1-7 and we have 2 Peter 3:8 and we have Isaiah 65:20 that talks about children being 100 years old. Isaiah 65:22 talks about people living as long as trees, those planting the trees will eat of its fruit, etc. Ezekiel 40-48 describes the Lord's reign on earth. Clearly we have not seen anything like this period yet.

Consider that the number 7 means COMPLETION. It was roughly 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus and 2,000 years since so another 1,000 year period before God returns and creates a new heaven and new earth seems about right.

Of course there is one truth. I am only stating that no one knows that truth except God.
When it occurs, I will recognize it, because I have acquainted myself with the Word of God, and I will continue to do so; but I don't want to speak too solidly on the mysteries of God that He has left loose and debatable.
That is why I reject many forms Dispensationalism: because they claim to know unknowable things, and claim exege while showing eisege. (notice that I said 'many' not 'all', because I respect a lot of work that has been done by them)

 

[PlainWord]

Of course there is one truth. I am only stating that no one knows that truth except God.
When it occurs, I will recognize it, because I have acquainted myself with the Word of God, and I will continue to do so; but I don't want to speak too solidly on the mysteries of God that He has left loose and debatable.
That is why I reject many forms Dispensationalism: because they claim to know unknowable things, and claim exege while showing eisege. (notice that I said 'many' not 'all', because I respect a lot of work that has been done by them)

My point is God has left NO DEBATE as to when the Lord will return in relation to the Tribulation and appearance of the Abomination. He was crystal clear. Ask yourself, who benefits from the confusion? Who is the master of confusion and deception? The same will benefit from it.

There is no way anyone will fall down and worship the Antichrist if the Real Christ comes first. Would you pay $20,000 for a fake Rolex if you previously held a real Rolex and you felt the weight, saw the quality, the engravings on the back and the fake Rolex weighed half as much, with no engravings on back?

Why would Jesus warn us repeatedly about not going out after the False Christ if He was coming before the false Christ and rapturing us all out of here??? At that point there would be no saved on earth to warn. He didn't provide all these warnings and Paul too for the unsaved. They warned the saved!!

 

[konroh]

No one doubts that there are Tribulation saints, some of the greatest saints ever. The Blessed hope Rapture doctrine doesn't mean that people won't fall for a fake Christ. I don't think it's a secret Rapture, but that doesn't mean that everyone will understand what happened. Many will understand and will believe in Christ, and so Christ warns them not to fall for the fake. I do also think there is some complexity to the study of eschatology, because there are rewards for studying it. One of the byproducts to me is that you learn to love Scripture, and if you love God's Word, then you should love God's people.

So I say to my Amillenial friends, Enjoy the kingdom. To my post-trib friends, "Isn't it great that Jesus is coming back." To my Pan-millenial friends who think it will all work out in the end, "Let's love the Savior together." To my Pre-trib friends, "See you in the clouds."

 

[ChristIsLord229]

My point is God has left NO DEBATE as to when the Lord will return in relation to the Tribulation and appearance of the Abomination. He was crystal clear. Ask yourself, who benefits from the confusion? Who is the master of confusion and deception? The same will benefit from it.

There is no way anyone will fall down and worship the Antichrist if the Real Christ comes first. Would you pay $20,000 for a fake Rolex if you previously held a real Rolex and you felt the weight, saw the quality, the engravings on the back and the fake Rolex weighed half as much, with no engravings on back?

Why would Jesus warn us repeatedly about not going out after the False Christ if He was coming before the false Christ and rapturing us all out of here??? At that point there would be no saved on earth to warn. He didn't provide all these warnings and Paul too for the unsaved. They warned the saved!!

Amen brother, if were taken our of the tribulation (satans wrath), and only the ungodly are left, who are the saints that he persecutes and forces to take the mark? We will be here for the great tribulation, the event that is like no other tribulation, or will ever be again.

 

[Enow]

Exactly!!! I thought you were pre-Trib Enow? Good to see you are Post Trib, you've come around.

Again, if there is a Pre-Trib Rapture, how can there be Elect on earth during the Tribulation? But we see from Mat 24 that the Elect are indeed on earth during the Tribulation.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If the Rapture took place before this, there would be no ELECT left on earth.

The elect are the chosen for the Marriage Supper, but there will be wayward & errant saints left on earth when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture event.

This is when God separates the sheep from the goats.. the vessels unto honour that departed from iniquity by His grace & by His help from those saints that are vessels unto dishonour for not departing from iniquity as any iniquity is denying Him, they will be denied.

You reference is to be taken in light that the tribulation is happening now with all of these movements of the "Spirit" as in saying lo.. there is the Spirit of Christ... or there... as if going to a place is how one gets closer to the Holy Spirit when He is already in us by faith in Jesus Christ. This is the falling away spoken of wherein those that chase after seducing spirits after a sign are an adulterous generation in departing from faith and from their chaste reconciled relationship with God thru the Bridegroom. They need to repent to return to thero first love, but it is because of this iniquity, that God permitted them to suffer a strong delusion for believing the lie that they can receive the "Spirit" "again" and after a sign.

So the tribulation is happening now and for the elect's sake, it shall be shortened by the pre trib rapture event which afterwards, the wayward & errant saints will find themselves left behind and facing the coming "great" tribulation, but they are still in His house as vessel unto dishonour for not departing from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This promise in verse 19 below includes those left behind to suffer the coming great tribulation.

1 Peter 4:[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the tme is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[PlainWord]

Amen brother, if were taken our of the tribulation (satans wrath), and only the ungodly are left, who are the saints that he persecutes and forces to take the mark? We will be here for the great tribulation, the event that is like no other tribulation, or will ever be again.

EXACTLY!!! Remember Rev 13:7? Satan was granted authority to make war with the Saints and overcome them. These are the Saints who "went forth" thinking there was a rapture. God allows them to be slaughtered. They are then seen in heaven before the throne as the Great Multitude of Rev 7, crying, ashamed, hungry and thirsty for the Lamb. This ties perfectly to Isaiah 65.

Then there are those of us who are left, the ELECT. Rev 14:13 tells us that we are blessed "who die in the Lord from now on." The first group are not martyrs. The second group are. The second group are blessed, are called to the Marriage Supper and return with Christ to avenge the Beast while the first group remains in heaven at rest for the 1,000 year reign, Rev 20:1-7.

I am finding dear friend that those who believe and teach Pre-Trib will never be convinced of the truth. They think Christ comes first thus they are already deceived and will be led to the slaughter thinking they are going off gloriously to heaven when in reality they are going off to be killed and will be so ashamed standing before God. It's sad, tragic really but it is foretold and will come to pass. Fret not as you are part of the ELECT, sealed with the truth and knowledge of God.

Check out the below passages. The Isaiah passage is right before the start of the millennium is discussed, meaning it happens during the Tribulation. Pay close attention to the order given and compare to the multitude...

Isaiah 65:

12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;

14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.

15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord God will slay you, And call His servants by another name;

Rev 7:

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them (meaning they shall not be ashamed by the face of the Lamb), nor any heat;

17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

[PlainWord]

The elect are the chosen for the Marriage Supper, but there will be wayward & errant saints left on earth when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture event.

This is when God separates the sheep from the goats.. the vessels unto honour that departed from iniquity by His grace & by His help from those saints that are vessels unto dishonour for not departing from iniquity as any iniquity is denying Him, they will be denied.

You reference is to be taken in light that the tribulation is happening now with all of these movements of the "Spirit" as in saying lo.. there is the Spirit of Christ... or there... as if going to a place is how one gets closer to the Holy Spirit when He is already in us by faith in Jesus Christ. This is the falling away spoken of wherein those that chase after seducing spirits after a sign are an adulterous generation in departing from faith and from their chaste reconciled relationship with God thru the Bridegroom. They need to repent to return to thero first love, but it is because of this iniquity, that God permitted them to suffer a strong delusion for believing the lie that they can receive the "Spirit" "again" and after a sign.

So the tribulation is happening now and for the elect's sake, it shall be shortened by the pre trib rapture event which afterwards, the wayward & errant saints will find themselves left behind and facing the coming "great" tribulation, but they are still in His house as vessel unto dishonour for not departing from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This promise in verse 19 below includes those left behind to suffer the coming great tribulation.

1 Peter 4:[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the tme is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I can't even begin to tell you how far off from the truth you are. We are NOT in the Great Tribulation and there won't be a Rapture before it. WOW!! I give up...

 

[ChristIsLord229]

The 144,000 are ALREADY in heaven, Do you really think 12,000 virgins from each tribe still exist today? The tribes have been scattered, no one can trace them back. This is a whole other thread though, just thought id tell ya...

 

[Enow]

I can't even begin to tell you how far off from the truth you are. We are NOT in the Great Tribulation and there won't be a Rapture before it. WOW!! I give up...

I didn't say we were in the "great" tribulation. I said we are in the tribulation as described by Matthew in how they point to Lo here is Christ or there... reference.

There is tribulation wherein is the falling away from the faith which is happening now in all of those "movements of the 'Spirit" and then there is the great tribulation wherein is the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth by taking or not taking the mark of the beast to survive & go to the kae of fire or to die and gain Christ.

 

[Enow]

The 144,000 are ALREADY in heaven, Do you really think 12,000 virgins from each tribe still exist today? The tribes have been scattered, no one can trace them back. This is a whole other thread though, just thought id tell ya...

The 144,000 virgins redeemed from the earth at the beginning of Revelation 14th chapter are not from the 12.000 of each tribe of Israel. Do note that no reference to the tribes of Israel was mentioned at the beginning of that chapter.

Revelation 14:6-11 are the three angels that will set up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth. Verses 12-13 testify of the wayward saints left behind from those mentioned in verses 1-5 as redeemed from the earth as those saints are made to rest from their labours as their works shall follow them... which in this case in relation to death is their works turned to ashes .

Then that follows into the second harvest as a result of the Bridegroom appearing and the angel giving the everlasting gospel.

Remember Christ the firstfruits, and then they that are Christ's at His coming?

Look at verse 4 of that chapter as it defers from the saints left behind.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

So nobody can say that Christ the firstfruits just mean Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Now there are other firstfruits, but these were described for the purpose of how this choir was chosen to follow the Lamb.

Now only God can cause the increase in seeing this... and so I leave that to Him to show you this in His words.

Matthew 13:[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.[SUP]17 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

James 1:[SUP]5 [/SUP]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[PlainWord]

The 144,000 are ALREADY in heaven, Do you really think 12,000 virgins from each tribe still exist today? The tribes have been scattered, no one can trace them back. This is a whole other thread though, just thought id tell ya...

Why do you think the 144K are in heaven? FYI, they are not necessarily literal virgins, they are spiritual virgins meaning they have never followed false gods, religions or doctrines like the Pre-Trib Rapture lie of Satan. I agree, they are from all over the world and may not be obvious Jews to those who see them. They might not even know they are of Jewish descent; in fact I bet most haven't a clue.

 

[maxwel]

Why do you think the 144K are in heaven? FYI, they are not necessarily literal virgins, they are spiritual virgins meaning they have never followed false gods, religions or doctrines like the Pre-Trib Rapture lie of Satan. I agree, they are from all over the world and may not be obvious Jews to those who see them. They might not even know they are of Jewish descent; in fact I bet most haven't a clue.

Absolutely.


One day I was dating a girl, and asked if she was a virgin.

She said, "YES! Yes I am a virgin!"

I said, "That's wonderful. What wonderful integrity, and character, and pureness of heart!"

Then she said, "Oh, I didn't mean a LITERAL VIRGIN!!!
Of course I've had sex with lots of horrible dirty men.
In fact, I still have sex with horrible dirty men every single day!!
I'm a SPIRITUAL VIRGIN.
That just means I've never worshipped a false God."

I looked up into her crazed, deluded eyes, and finally said,
"Ya know, that whole SPIRITUAL VIRGIN thing really isn't helping your case any."

: )