Distinctives of Dispensationalism

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4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel?

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. -Gal 1:6-10

Dispensationalists have long been accused of teaching multiple methods of salvation. Dispensational leaders (excepting the Bullingerite or Consistent sects) have long denied these charges. Denial without refutation is, however, meaningless. Let us examine some of the evidence.


cont

Dispensationalism ?

 

[zone]

4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel?

The Scofield Problem

......

The Chafer Problem

......

The Kingdom Offer

Dispensationalism believes that the purpose of the first advent of Jesus Christ was to offer an earthly Kingdom to the Jews. This Kingdom would reinstate the Old Testament legal system and it's expansion to the entire world under the Messiah. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and His Kingdom offer, plan B went into effect and Christ went to the cross to initiate the dispensation of Grace and the "mystery church". Had Israel received her King there would have been no cross - and no Gospel!

When Jesus came, He made a bona fide offer of the Kingdom and power to the people of Israel.12

What then, if the Jews had done their duty and accepted this offer, of the salvation of mankind? What of the cross - "without shedding of blood there is no remission"? What of the prophecies pointing to the cross? How could Christ offer a Kingdom that He could not permit to be established lest there be no salvation of man by His shed Blood? Dispensationalists attempt to absolve themselves from the concept of making God a liar by claiming He knew no one would call His bluff.

He knew before He came that they would refuse it - knew from all eternity; hence, there are prophets which speak of His coming to die for us.13

Still, the problem stands. Even if Christ made an earthly Kingdom offer knowing that the Jews would refuse, the offer could not have been redeemed. An offer that is impossible to honor is not a sincere offer but a fraud. Our God makes no insincere offers. Besides, if Christ came to establish an earthly Kingdom for the Jews surely He had opportunity, and the support of the masses -

Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone. -John 6:15

No, Christ came at the set time to die on the cross, to redeem fallen mankind. All true sons of Abraham recognized Him. It is at the Ascension that He received His Kingdom, and He is seated now on His Throne!

Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. -Eph 1:15-21

Dispensationalism ?




cont

 

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4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel?


The Dispensational Distinction
Between Israel and the Church

Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promises, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny all is contrast.14

Perhaps the central doctrine of dispensationalism is the distinction between Israel and the church. Dispensationalism sees Israel as an earthly people with earthly promises, and the church as a heavenly people with heavenly promises. Membership in Israel is by natural birth.15 One enters the church by supernatural birth. Dispensationalists view Israel and the church as having distinct eternal destinies. Israel will receive an eternal earthly Kingdom, and the church an eternal heavenly Kingdom.

Dispensationalism ?



cont

 

[zone]

4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel?


Darby, the father of dispensationalism, stated the distinction in the clearest of terms "The Jewish nation is never to enter the church."16

Ryrie considers this the most important dispensational distinction, and approves the statement that the "basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."17

Dispensationalism ?



IS THE ABOVE ASSERTION CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE?


cont

 

[Elin]

​So when in revelations do you think the rapture will occur? I think I understood when you said this before ,but not sure.Rev 6:9 And he had opened the fifth seal I saw under the alter them which were slain for the word of God and the testimony they held. 11 And white robes given them and rest until their fellow servants should be killed as they were should be fulfilled...Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones and them that sat upon them and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,And which had not worshiped the beast,neither his image,neither had received his mark upon their for heads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....Rev 20: 11 and I saw a great white throne....12 And I saw the dead both small and great stand before God....13 And the sea gave up the dead....death and hell delivered up the dead....15 and whosoever s names were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. So if only the martyrs were reigning with Christ and the rest of the dead had not risen this is the only place I can fit in the rapture " when the dead in Christ rise fist and they which are alive are caught up to meet him. This would be all that have died good and bad and those alive who have lived and been born in the thousand years. I think the great multitude in Rev 7:9 that have washed their robs and made them white in the blood of the lamb and are before the throne are the martyrs. Refer d to earlier. And again blessed are the dead which die in the lord hence forth are the martyrs.For right after the earth and the vine are reaped.I think the vine thats reaped are again the martyrs because their death and there blood running out of the wine press evokes the wrath of God. This wine press was trodden without the city as Jesus suffered without the gate and let us come unto him there bearing his reproach I think it says somewhere about the bodies of the beast that where slain were out side the camp????I cant remember but thought it was the beasts to be sacrificed????. Any way where do you think the rapture will occur? Im trying to get it straight and maybe learn something.

Ac 3:21 - "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything (in the new creation at the end of time).

Ro 8:20-21 - "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that (subjected it in hope for) the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (at the resurrection at Christ's second coming at the end of time--1Th 4:16-17).

As I've stated, there is not one verse in all of Scripture which locates the rapture before the "tribulation."

However, I do find Scripture locating the rapture with the final coming of Jesus in judgment:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him (rapture). . .that day will not come until the rebellion (apostasy) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. . .whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." (1Th 2:1, 3, 8)

"God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you. . .This will happen when the Lord is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. . .on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who believe. . ." (1Th 1:6-10)

So, there will be no appearance of Jesus until that coming in judgment.

Peter states that "Christ must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ac 3:21), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness which he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, and which John tells us about in Rev 21:1-4, where there is no death because it is eternity.

The writer of Heb tells us there will be no appearing of Christ prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, one to atone and once to judge, and not in between.
"Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge." (Heb 9:27-28)

So regarding your question of where the rapture occurs in Revelation, I would point out several things:

1) the only certain and authoritative interpretation of symbolic prophetic riddles are the interpretations given in the Bible; e.g., Ac 15:13-18; Da 2, 4, 7, 8; Eze 12, 15, 16, 17, 23, 24, 31, 37; Rev 12, 13, 17, where the symbols are explained;

2) all private (not given in the Bible) interpretation is uncertain and enjoys no Biblical authority;

3) I don't interpret prophetic riddles because my interpretation would be no more than just uncertain private interpretation of them;

4) I take all my understanding of these matters from what is certain, unequivocal and authoritative in the Bible, as in the Scriptures I've presented above;

5) in doing so, I enjoy the assurance that no matter what the prophetic riddles may mean, they will not contradict what is certain, unequivocal and authoritative in the word of God, because God does not contradict himself.

6) Therefore, any interpretation of unfulfilled prophectic riddles that is in disagreement with what is certain, unequivocal and authoritative in Scripture is incorrect.

Translate: I have no answers regarding unfulfilled prophetic riddles.

 

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4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel?


Ryrie considers this the most important dispensational distinction, and approves the statement that the "basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."17

Dispensationalism ?

cont

the promise of dispensationalism is separation of SAVED jews from SAVED gentiles throughout eternity?

the PROMISE?

so how is it that people who teach NO DISTINCTION between saved jews and gentiles are ANTISEMITES?

.....


this perversion is from the DEVIL.
it is OPPOSED to everything Jesus came to do.


Acts 10
Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

 

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In answer to the "Scofield problem" dispensationalism began to redefine the term "dispensation".

The New Scofield Reference Bible of 1967 repeats Scofield's terminology, but the modern commentators elaborate on 1909 version indicating that the definition implies three concepts: a new divine revelation, the nature of man's stewardship with respect to it, and a certain time period for it. These implied concepts are then qualified to such an extent as to make the delineations meaningless. Significantly, this new definition of dispensations brings into question whether the term means anything at all.

The purpose of each dispensation, then, is to place man under a specific rule of conduct, but such stewardship is not a condition of salvation. In every past dispensation unregenerate man has failed, and he has failed in this present dispensation and will in the future. But salvation has been and will continue to be available to him by God's grace through faith.8

Revisionist dispensationalism now states that the purpose of the dispensations are not salvific. What, then, is the purpose of the testing in regards to the "specific rule of conduct"? What is the significance of man's failure in the various dispensations? It seems that while Scofield might have been too frank in his elucidation, his successors have so qualified the term "dispensation" as to remove from it any semblance of meaning.

Dispensationalism ?

 

[Elin]

The firstborns and firstfruits were given to God in recognition that all things come from God. That's the OT meaning.

In your response you do nothing to respond to the actual words of the text, the context of the dichotomy that is clear from the text. The context is clearly what was old and what is now new. Did the OT saints come

to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

(Too much theology and not enough Bible?)

In the context, previously presented, the letter is addressing Hebrews who were considering compromising their faith by returning to Judaism and the old covenant in order to gain relief from persecution by their family and friends, and is a warning that to trade their spiritual birthright for temporary ease in this world as did Esau (12:16), would be to deprive themselves of Christ's blessing (12:17), as Esau deprived himself of Jacob's blessing.

That is the context in which he presents the contrast between the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant and the New Covenant.
It's not just an ancillary statement about "what is old and what is new."
It is central to the writer's argument about why they must not trade their (new-birth) birthright for the old (Sinaitic) covenant.

1) And there is nothing confusing about Heb 12:22-24.
In its context, it's more than clear that the author is stating that it is the recipients of the letter, not the OT saints, who have come to the church of the firstborn (v. 23).

Now I'm not disagreeing that Christ's sacrifice is the basis for the OT saints salvation, but this is a theological concept that is applied to them, like I said, no verse that you gave actually says the OT saints were redeemed, substituted for, purchased, consecrated.

I assume that is basic NT knowledge to the informed Christian.

If you understand the meaning of the OT sacrifices to atone for sin (Lev 17:11),
and the meaning of Heb 10:4 that the sacrifices did not remit sin, they only covered it (Ro 4:7),
and the meaning of Ro 3:25 that the sins of the OT were not actually remitted until the cross,
then you understand that the cross applied to the OT saints no differently than it does to the NT saints,
and the OT saints are necessarily included in the church of the firstborn (i.e., redeemed).

2) Jesus is the firstfruits and firstborn of the resurrection, neither of which applies to the church.
The church of the firstborn are the redeemed, which does not apply to Jesus.

Now of course there is the picture in Rev. that the bride of the Lamb is the New Jerusalem which has the names of both the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. But you know what's fascinating about this picture? Nowhere does it use the word Church!

Dispensationalism at its best.

If you understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus (Jn 1:29),
and that the Bride of the Lamb (Eph 5:31-32),
which is the the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2), is the church (Heb 12:22 21:2; Gal 4:26;
Rev 21:2, 9-10), which is
the body of Christ (Eph 1:23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27; Col 1;24) in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage,
then you understand that the New Jerusalem is the Church, which includes the OT saints (Rev 21:12).

We have here the primary characteristic of dispensationalism--to divide and multiply things which are one and the same,
as the New Jerusalem and the Church are being divided here, which Scripture presents as one and the same.

The OT saints are in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:12), which is the Church, as Heb 12:23 states.

 

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IN CONTRAST:

Christian theology has always maintained the essential continuity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This continuity can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment. Dispensationalists admit that if the church can be shown to be fulfilling promises made to Israel their system is doomed.

If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned.18

Promise to Israel -
"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' -Hosea 1:10

Fulfillment in the church -
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." -Romans :22-26

Promise to Israel -
Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!'" -Hosea 2:23

Fulfillment in the church -
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. -1 Peter 2:9-10

Promise to Israel -
"On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; -Amos 9:11

Fulfillment in the church -
"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works. -Acts 15:14-18

In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.

Spoken to Israel -
"And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. -Joel 2:28-32

Applied to the church -
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' -Acts 2:1,16-21

Spoken to Israel -
'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." -Exodus 19:6

Applied to the church -
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; -1 Peter 2:9

Spoken to Israel -
"My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -Ezekiel 37:27

Applied to the church -
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." -2 Cor 6:16

Spoken to Israel -
"Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. -Lev 19:2

Applied to the church -
but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." -1 Peter 1:15-16

Spoken to Israel -
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- -Jer 31:31

Applied to the church -
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. -Luke 22:20

....

The New Covenant is particularly problematic for the dispensationalist, as Jeremiah 31 is undeniably addressed to Israel. The New Covenant is the very heart of the Gospel, yet if the church is fulfilling the promise given to Israel under the New Covenant, dispensationalism is dead.

...

Ryrie, in his early writings, makes this significant statement:

If the church does not have a new covenant, then she is fulfilling Israel's promises, for it has been clearly shown that the Old Testament teaching on the new covenant is that it is for Israel. If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere else in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned. One might well ask why there are not two aspects to the one new covenant. This is the position held by many premillennialists, but we agree that the amillennialist has every right to say of this view that it is a practical admission that the new covenant is fulfilled in and to the church.19

...

Dispensationalism has used various arguments to get around this insurmountable problem. Perhaps the boldest was the concept of two New Covenants. Chafer appears to be the originator of the idea:

There remains to be recognized a heavenly covenant for the heavenly people, which is also styled like the preceding one for Israel a "new covenant." It is made in the blood of Christ (cf. Mark 14:24) and continues in effect throughout this age, whereas the new covenant made with Israel happens to be future in its application.

To suppose that these two covenants -- one for Israel and one for the Church -- are the same is to assume that there is a latitude of common interest between God's purpose for Israel and His purpose for the Church.20

Dispensationalism ?



cont



if you haven't yet jumped ship and repented for this hair-raising error, take another at THIS:


To suppose that these two covenants -- one for Israel and one for the Church -- are the same is to assume that there is a latitude of common interest between God's purpose for Israel and His purpose for the Church - Lewis Sperry Chafer

 

[Elin]

In answer to the "Scofield problem" dispensationalism began to redefine the term "dispensation".

The New Scofield Reference Bible of 1967 repeats Scofield's terminology, but the modern commentators elaborate on 1909 version indicating that the definition implies three concepts: a new divine revelation, the nature of man's stewardship with respect to it, and a certain time period for it. These implied concepts are then qualified to such an extent as to make the delineations meaningless. Significantly, this new definition of dispensations brings into question whether the term means anything at all.

The purpose of each dispensation, then, is to place man under a specific rule of conduct, but such stewardship is not a condition of salvation. In every past dispensation unregenerate man has failed, and he has failed in this present dispensation and will in the future. But salvation has been and will continue to be available to him by God's grace through faith.8

Revisionist dispensationalism now states that the purpose of the dispensations are not salvific. What, then, is the purpose of the testing in regards to the "specific rule of conduct"? What is the significance of man's failure in the various dispensations? It seems that while Scofield might have been too frank in his elucidation, his successors have so qualified the term "dispensation" as to remove from it any semblance of meaning.

Dispensationalism ?

Sounds to me like they're seeing dispensational nonsense in the light of truth. . .maybe?

 

[zone]

Sounds to me like they're seeing dispensational nonsense in the light of truth. . .maybe?

seems like they're (the ones mentioned above) looking for any way to "fix" the thing. bury the problems.

instead of abandoning it for the bankrupt and antichristian mess it is.

some people have so much invested, the cost of repenting and making amends is too great.
i have no doubt many know in their hearts its wrong, but refuse to cast it away.

i have sympathy for those raised in it - they don't know any better...

but WHERE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?

 

[zone]

just look at this IRONY:



INVENTING HERETICS THROUGH MISUNDERSTANDING by Lewis Sperry Chafer

The present ill-conceived wave of resentment, which is being fostered by Covenant theologians against dispensational distinctions in Biblical interpretation has centered its contention of the assertion that those who recognize dispensational distinctions–especially the late Dr. C. I. Scofield and the Editor of Bibliotheca Sacra–teach that there are two ways by which one may be saved–one by law-observance and one by faith in Christ. It seems not to occur to the men who frame their protests against dispensational teachings that their contentions have no basis whatever upon which to rest, nor do they estimate the injury to other men when they, attempting to state what dispensationalists believe, publish what is utterly untrue; going so far as to secure the vote of an Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in condemnation of that which really does not exist.


Third, the salvation of Israel, which salvation is dated to transpire at the second advent of Christ and according to Jehovah’s irrevocable covenant with that nation, and is unique in every particular. As to the fact of their salvation and the precise time of its achievement it is written, “And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins” ( Romans 11:26,27 ) .


Almost all present confusion respecting dispensational interpretation arises from the persistent failure on the part of men to recognize that Israelites were by physical birth born into covenant relation to God and that the nation, as a nation, was redeemed as to all future generations when God called them out of Egypt. From that time on they are repeatedly addressed by Jehovah as “My redeemed.” This redemption was confirmed, as was all Old Testament redemption, by Christ on the Cross. Far beyond his own understanding the High Priest predicted, “Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not” ( John 11:49, 50 ) . Observe that this is the declaration of the High Priest regarding the one nation and is not of the whole world. Isaiah declared this very thing regarding Israel when he said, “He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken” ( 53:8 ) . And again the same prophet states that it is in the time of Messiah’s second advent that “the year of my redeemed is come” (Isaiah 63:1-6), and in this great prediction Israel’s salvation alone is in view. As to the covenants with Israel, Jehovah’s oath secures

(1) an everlasting nation ( Jeremiah 31:31-37 ) ,
(2) an everlasting possession of their land ( Deuteronomy 30:5 ),
(3) an everlasting throne ( 2 Samuel 7:16 ),
(4) an everlasting King ( Jeremiah 33:14-17, 20, 21 ), and
(5) an everlasting kingdom ( Isaiah 9:6, 7; Luke 1:31-33 ) .

Regarding the nation and her promised salvation, it will be seen that they are to be saved because of the covenant Jehovah made with them to this end. When they are saved it will be because One died for that nation and on that righteous ground alone, which death for them they will then be moved by the Holy Spirit to accept by faith.

Jehovah convenants their salvation as indicated in Romans 11:26, 27; but before they are saved and as an event in connection with Christ’s return, that people must pass through their national judgment ( cf. Ezekiel 20:33-44; Matthew 25:1-10, R.V. ) . Those who pass this judgment–likened as they are to five wise virgins–will then constitute the “all Israel” that shall be saved.

It yet remains to be seen that the salvation of the nation Israel, though the precise character of that salvation has not been fully disclosed, extends to every individual. Jeremiah anticipates this when he writes, “But this shall be the convenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” (Jer. 31:33, 34 ) .

Thus it is disclosed that the salvation of an Israelite, who lived in the Mosaic age, which age will be completed in the coming Tribulation, was guaranteed by Covenant; yet the individual could, by failing to do God’s revealed will as contained in the Mosaic Law, sacrifice his place in the coming Kingdom and be cut off from his people ( cf. Luke 10:25-28; 18:18-21; Matthew 8:11,12; 24:50,51; 25:29,30 ). Jehovah’s salvation of Israel will be on the ground of Christ’s death. The human terms, because of the covenant promise regarding their salvation, are not the same as that required of Abraham or of any individual in this age, whether Jew or Gentile.

- Lewis Sperry Chafer

...



Thus it is disclosed tha the salvation of an Israelite, who lived in the Mosaic age, which age will be completed in the coming Tribulation, was guaranteed by Covenant; yet the individual could, by failing to do God’s revealed will as contained in the Mosaic Law, sacrifice his place in the coming Kingdom

REINCARNATION?

and how does the above absurdity line up with this:

Israelites were by physical birth born into covenant relation to God and that the nation, as a nation, was redeemed as to all future generations

 

[zone]

Lewis Sperry Chafer:

"And again the same prophet states that it is in the time of Messiah’s second advent that “the year of my redeemed is come” (Isaiah 63:1-6), and in this great prediction Israel’s salvation alone is in view. As to the covenants with Israel, Jehovah’s oath secures

(1) an everlasting nation ( Jeremiah 31:31-37 ) ,
(2) an everlasting possession of their land ( Deuteronomy 30:5 ),
(3) an everlasting throne ( 2 Samuel 7:16 ),
(4) an everlasting King ( Jeremiah 33:14-17, 20, 21 ), and
(5) an everlasting kingdom ( Isaiah 9:6, 7; Luke 1:31-33 ) .

does the NT say Israel/Church (jew & gentile) became an everlasting nation?
is Jesus on an everlasting throne?
is Jesus an everlasting King?
have christians (jew & gentile) received an everlasting kingdom?

so what do dispensationalists (christian zionists = zionists and not christian) focus on OVER JESUS AND THE CHURCH (jew & gentile)?

LAND.

they might concede Jesus is King.
they claim to be saved (having been transferred into THE KINGDOM of the Dear Son)...but they just can not understand an everlasting possession of their land is ETERNITY....for the SAVED.

who were first called Christians at Antioch.

persecuted first by their fellow apostate JEWS, then by the Romans.

how does Mr. Chafer place these people Paul mentioned in everlasting salvation based on the Old Covenant?

1 Thessalonians 2
13And we also thank God constantlyd for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 14For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!


are we to believe that God's wrath is not now on people who hinder the GOSPEL through sleight-of-hand - whether concerning jew or gentile?

we hear all this "well, if Christians do this or that maybe they were never saved. if Christians don't do this and that they won't be saved".

what about hostile unbelievers?

they are saved anyways? GREAT - MY FRIEND DRETT IS SAVED!

EXPLAIN IT TO ME AGAIN.

 

[konroh]

2) Jesus is the firstfruits and firstborn of the resurrection, neither of which applies to the church.
The church of the firstborn are the redeemed, which does not apply to Jesus.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection, 1 Cor. 15 20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

He is the promise that all who trust in Him, the Church, will be resurrected. We trust that we'll be resurrected because we believe that He was. He is the firstfruits, we are the later fruits, He is the firstborn of the resurrection, we are younger brothers and sisters of the resurrection.

The term used in Heb. 12 is church of the firstborn ones, this concept in context of referring to those now in the new covenant is that Christ and those Christians who first died after His death are the firstborn ones that were redeemed that we will join in heaven. It is much more natural to the text to see this as the reference of firstborn ones rather than as referring to the entirety of OT believers.

If you understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus (Jn 1:29),
and that the Bride of the Lamb (Eph 5:31-32),
which is the the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2), is the church (Heb 12:22 21:2; Gal 4:26;
Rev 21:2, 9-10), which is
the body of Christ (Eph 1:23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27; Col 1;24) in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage,
then you understand that the New Jerusalem is the Church, which includes the OT saints (Rev 21:12).

Quite a lot of theological meaning here. The OT saints worshiped at a physical Jerusalem, the church comes to a heavenly Jerusalem. There is no doubt in my mind that the New Jerusalem includes both OT and NT saints, because it says, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles. This united bride of Christ is a beautiful picture of the unification of all God's people of all ages. But do you not recognize that while there is unity, clearly in this picture in Revelation there is distinction? Why even mention the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, what use is there in making a distinction? Because God made a distinction. There was and is a difference.

Now of course we don't want to accuse Christ of polygamy. It's one bride. That Israel was considered the bride of God in the OT and the church is considered the bride of Christ in the NT and that they are united as one bride of God's chosen people, both physical and spiritual, is a beautiful picture. Do we want to overemphasize the unity or overemphasize the distinction?

are we to believe that God's wrath is not now on people who hinder the GOSPEL through sleight-of-hand - whether concerning jew or gentile?

we hear all this "well, if Christians do this or that maybe they were never saved. if Christians don't do this and that they won't be saved".

what about hostile unbelievers?

I don't think I completely agree with Chafer but it seems that there's a misunderstanding. No good dispensationalist (go ahead, laugh) believes that Israel will be the recipients of God's promises without them having to believe in Christ. The reason that "all Israel" is saved in Rom. 11:26 is because they all believe, the rest are dead. Not all are Israel who are of Israel, one has to believe. That's always been the implication.

 

[zone]

it doesn't work, konroh

at all

 

[Elin]

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection, 1 Cor. 15 20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

He is the promise that all who trust in Him, the Church, will be resurrected. We trust that we'll be resurrected because we believe that He was. He is the firstfruits, we are the later fruits, He is the firstborn of the resurrection, we are younger brothers and sisters of the resurrection.

The term used in Heb. 12 is church of the firstborn ones, this concept in context of referring to those now in the new covenant is that Christ and those Christians who first died after His death are the firstborn ones that were redeemed that we will join in heaven. It is much more natural to the text to see this as the reference of firstborn ones rather than as referring to the entirety of OT believers.

Quite a lot of theological meaning here. The OT saints worshiped at a physical Jerusalem, the church comes to a heavenly Jerusalem. There is no doubt in my mind that the New Jerusalem includes both OT and NT saints, because it says, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles. This united bride of Christ is a beautiful picture of the unification of all God's people of all ages. But do you not recognize that while there is unity, clearly in this picture in Revelation there is distinction? Why even mention the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, what use is there in making a distinction? Because God made a distinction. There was and is a difference.

Now of course we don't want to accuse Christ of polygamy. It's one bride. That Israel was considered the bride of God in the OT and the church is considered the bride of Christ in the NT and that they are united as one bride of God's chosen people, both physical and spiritual, is a beautiful picture. Do we want to overemphasize the unity or overemphasize the distinction?

I don't think I completely agree with Chafer but it seems that there's a misunderstanding. No good dispensationalist (go ahead, laugh) believes that Israel will be the recipients of God's promises without them having to believe in Christ. The reason that "all Israel" is saved in Rom. 11:26 is because they all believe, the rest are dead. Not all are Israel who are of Israel, one has to believe. That's always been the implication.

it doesn't work, konroh

at all

Yeah. . .what she said.

 

[konroh]

So maybe we don't agree on what the whole truth is, but there is plenty we can agree on, and we can agree to love each other.

17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

 

[BradC]

it doesn't work, konroh

at all

It will never work for you because you reject it based upon a false premise and because you have the wrong frame of reference. But there will come a time when you will eat crow.

 

[SarahM777]

It will never work for you because you reject it based upon a false premise and because you have the wrong frame of reference. But there will come a time when you will eat crow.

UMMM So you say you have the correct frame of reference then can you explain how these verses fit into your ends times outlook?

It does show a whole different light on to that time frame doesn't it? Jesus did warn us those things would happen.
But never mind that those things are not really the fulfillment of what John was talking it about.
Never mind mind Peter tells us this which is NEVER brought up yet it points to the end

2 Peter 3

Dear friends,(A) this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders(B) to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets(C) and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.(D)
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days(E) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.(F) 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?(G) Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”(H) 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word(I) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.(J) 6 By these waters also the world of that time(K) was deluged and destroyed.(L) 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,(M) being kept for the day of judgment(N) and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.(O) 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,(P) as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient(Q) with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(R)
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.(S) The heavens will disappear with a roar;(T) the elements will be destroyed by fire,(U) and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a](V)

Never mind Jesus says this

Matthew 24

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.(AN)37 As it was in the days of Noah,(AO) so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,(AP) up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(AQ)40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.(AR)41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.(AS)

Luke repeats that.

So how is it possible that they do NOT know that Jesus is coming back in the middle of the "great tribulation" when all these horrible tings are suppose to happen? Can you explain how the earth does not die within a matter of days of losing 1/3 of all sunlight? If as you say you have the correct perception of these things then how does that all fit together?

 

[BradC]

UMMM So you say you have the correct frame of reference then can you explain how these verses fit into your ends times outlook?

It does show a whole different light on to that time frame doesn't it? Jesus did warn us those things would happen.
But never mind that those things are not really the fulfillment of what John was talking it about.
Never mind mind Peter tells us this which is NEVER brought up yet it points to the end

2 Peter 3

Dear friends,(A) this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders(B) to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets(C) and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.(D)
3Above all, you must understand that in the last days(E) scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.(F) 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?(G) Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”(H) 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word(I) the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.(J) 6 By these waters also the world of that time(K) was deluged and destroyed.(L) 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,(M) being kept for the day of judgment(N) and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.(O) 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,(P) as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient(Q) with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(R)
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.(S) The heavens will disappear with a roar;(T) the elements will be destroyed by fire,(U) and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a](V)

Never mind Jesus says this

Matthew 24

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.(AN)37 As it was in the days of Noah,(AO) so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,(AP) up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(AQ)40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.(AR)41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.(AS)

Luke repeats that.

So how is it possible that they do NOT know that Jesus is coming back in the middle of the "great tribulation" when all these horrible tings are suppose to happen? Can you explain how the earth does not die within a matter of days of losing 1/3 of all sunlight? If as you say you have the correct perception of these things then how does that all fit together?

Sorry, no can do, not on this thread.