I want the truth , no beating around the bush

[homwardbound]

So what your asking me to do pretty much is even though the bible has major contradictions we are just meant to ignore it and have blind faith which could possibly mean walking towards our doom ? I can't stand fire let alone imagine hell so i'd rather use logic in this case

God is the fire, that when in god through Son the fire does not burn as in Midrash, Sharash and Abinnigo read the story on the First Testament in standing in Faith, For without belief (Faith) in God all is futile, and yes there are many things that appear to be contradictory, and truly are not, and only God can reveal this to you if you believe God. Then there is the story of Daniel being thrown into the lions den and no harm came to Daniel.

 

[homwardbound]

I believe god is perfect and God would not make a mistake when writing a book .That's my logic and are you telling me there's no contradictions in the bible?

There are contradictions, of man's interpretations. Not God's
God is the revealer of truth no one else and Christ showed us exactly how to walk, and that is by trust in being led by Father trough the Holy Ghost. The same Holy Ghost that led Christ. That he has sent to all that believe to separate truth from error

 

[homwardbound]

@dan58, The bible was written after the death of Jesus okay. So the people who spread the quotations and teachings of Jesus are spread by an" evil and adulterous generation"Mathew 12:39 . The people who spread the teachings of Jesus were evil according to Jesus true ? his own words ? Now @ karraster i'll show you contradictions and explain them to me please
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf

?'s for you, do you believe Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary?
So then he was born of the flesh right?
Was he perfect as shown in his walk here on earth?
Being perfect then why did he go to the cross and die in the flesh? He did not need to go for himself did he?
And if you see it was for you, then what is the resurrected Christ in the Spirit for?
Regardless if the three are one or one are three, is it not true that Christ came to earth to reconcile mankind to the one true God?

 

[Nick01]

You will find a contrary opinion to anything, but it all comes down to what a person chooses to believe. Consider that Jesus said that "I and my Father are one" and that he instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Why?

The only way skeptics can separate Christ from God is to deny the triune, thus, if Jesus was not one with the Father, he could not have been divine, he has no power to save anyone, and was nothing more than a philosopher. First John 5:7-8 is consistent with everything Jesus taught, but even if the passage didn't exist, I believe it to be true. But that's just my opinion, everyone can research and determine what's true for themselves.

Sure. I believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe plenty of Scripture outside 1 John 5 validates trinitarian belief. I also believe the explicitly trinitarian version of 1 John 5:7-8 is not authentic, and that belief is borne out by the majority of the evidence. Yes, I agree that the KJV verse is orthodox, but I don't just want orthodox words, I want the words the apostles wrote!

 

[capumetu]

(1 John 5:7) For there are three witness bearers,
After "witness bearers" אABVgSy[SUP]h,p[/SUP] omit the words added in later Gr. mss and Vg[SUP]c[/SUP], namely: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth."

 

[morninglory]

Those whom he will call workers of lawlessness are those who pretend to be Christ's followers, but are only so in outward form.

If this is true, why are they so surprised that he never knew them? You need to look deeper for the "why".

 

[morninglory]

I believe the bible too but whether we have the original bible or an alteration is a different story ? :S I believe god is perfect and only man makes mistakes hence if the bible has a single scientific or linguistic mistake then its been corrupted

You want the truth? no beating around the bush? You've got it. I have already given my reason for my choice of the KJV, and will be happy to reapeat it if you so desire, but I will re quote Ps.139.4 first, "for there is not a word in my tongue, but Lo O Lord, thou knowest it altogether". King James commissioned 49 scholars from three universities to translate the 1611 version. The scholars were divided up into groups of seven, seperated from each other, and then the scriptures were divided up between the various groups.

I challange you to read the KJV revision cover to cover, and keep in mind that the bible was written in three different languages, seperated into seven different sections, each section tranlated by completely different scholars, not to mention all the Prophets and Apostles he spoke through, and then justify how the whole bible sounds like one person wrote every word, affirming and re affirming and clarifying various things said previously?

Do you worship a God that would not or could not watch over his words that he said were "spirit and life", and allow them to be corrupted before they even reached the time and place of the freedom to read them to the hearts content? If that is all the power or concern the god you serve has, he will be hard pressed to keep the promises made in the Bible that built this nations churches.

 

[secularhermit]

You may some some alterations, like that leding to the trinitarian doctrine... But If you don´t see those introductions alongside the OT and the whole NT, you can survive what I have survived. Besides, YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with God will assure you MORE.

Just ASK Him to lead!

 

[tripsin]

The bible was originally written a number of years after the death of Jesus Christ.Now my question is the King James Version is based on a later manuscript compared to the New International Version which uses a manuscript earlier to the death of Jesus Christ?
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 7
The King James Version states :"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This sounds like the trinity
However the earlier manuscript in the New International version states : "For there are three that testify"

Isn't this proof an alteration to the later manuscripts and show a sense of corruption.If you disagree please note why you do.Thank you, keep in my mind it isn't my intention to offend nor hurt anyone.

According to Wikipedia the KJV was started in 1604 and finished in 1611. The NIV was originally published in the 1970's, and recently updated in 2011. I get it that Wiki might not be correct on some issues, but do you think their information could be so far off? I wonder why those learned men of the KJV didn't know about the "earlier" manuscript(s)?

Me? Personally? Any time a version tries to cut out the Trinity, should be carefully scrutinized.

Want the truth? Must go to a Higher Authority.

 

[Nick01]

Do you worship a God that would not or could not watch over his words that he said were "spirit and life", and allow them to be corrupted before they even reached the time and place of the freedom to read them to the hearts content? If that is all the power or concern the god you serve has, he will be hard pressed to keep the promises made in the Bible that built this nations churches.

I never understand this argument. The idea that we should believe the KJV is the best and most inspired translation because God would not allow his word to be corrupted makes zero sense, because it would mean that for 1600 years God allowed precisely that - his word to be lost and corrupted.

Far better, it seems to me, is that God has protected his word in all times, given us his Body, the Church, and allowed us enough information and gifting to be able to consistently determine what was originally given.

Having said that, the differences between the Majority and Critical texts are so minor as to be almost insignificant, 1 John being one of two or three of the most significant (and it doesn't even affect a single doctrine).

 

[Karraster]

The bible was originally written a number of years after the death of Jesus Christ.Now my question is the King James Version is based on a later manuscript compared to the New International Version which uses a manuscript earlier to the death of Jesus Christ?
In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 7
The King James Version states :"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This sounds like the trinity
However the earlier manuscript in the New International version states : "For there are three that testify"

Isn't this proof an alteration to the later manuscripts and show a sense of corruption.If you disagree please note why you do.Thank you, keep in my mind it isn't my intention to offend nor hurt anyone.

Ecclesiastes 8:4 "Where the word of a king is, there is power, and who may say unto him, what doest thou?"

King James of England "A translation be made of the whole Bible, as consonant as can be to the original Hebrew and Greek" (King James 1 1604

and again 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

I recon that King James Bible has built a nation. I recon by hearing it and reading it, and by the living power in it, I was saved. Now there's a whole lot of truth right there for ya Lookin.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, it is true you have highlighted that there are three who testify the Good News and Peace. But for some in sound doctrine this sentence goes on to also say; 'these three are one'

Can anyone or anything that exist as witnesses, can separate or deny Holy Scripture mentioned 'oneness' which some of us have come to know in sound doctrine and only acknowledge in wisdom that the word Trinity is acceptable to some who believe.

"It takes only two or three witnesses to justify a case", says the Word, the MESSIAH and there are more than three who confess this, in the spirit nature of Kingdom knowledge understanding and not in order for a new church or movement to arise to justify special righteousness because in doing so, the only justification one truth witness can conclude according to the New Testament is 'causing division in the church mentality'.

So please 'back off' you stubborn children in learning because the word Trinity have already been justified by more than three witnesses and the church must be just and fair like the MESSIAH to be silent and not be contentious nor debating nor continuing in ignorance for more foolishness.

 

[Karraster]

Back off? I was responding to a question from the OP to me. Did ya even read this thread?

 

[BananaPie]

even during paul's time there were people circulating false gospels. You can see it in the words of his letters and his warnings. just because a manuscript is "older" does not mean it is more true to God's message or His Gospel story.

BINGO!!!

 

[BananaPie]

The bible was originally written a number of years after the death of Jesus Christ. That is correct, but you must know that the NT was written by eyewitnesses and contemporary to Jesus. Those saints actually saw, heard and knew Jesus face-to-face.

Regardless of what translation of the latest revised edition of the new improved NIV, PhD you read, it doesn't change the facts, FACTS, that the Bible was written by eyewitness account.

As for Paul, the Lord Jesus appeared to him AFTER the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. He is also an eyewitness to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now my question is the King James Version is based on a later manuscript... The KJV is based on the Majority Texts which collectively are knows as "Textus Receptus" (Received Texts). That simply means that Desiderius Erasmus "received" several legit NT texts to commission the translation of the NT. Those legitimate NT manuscripts are:

1. the Greek Byzantine Texts (which are by far the majority antique collection of NT manuscripts),
2. the Latin Vulgate.

compared to the New International Version which uses a manuscript earlier to the death of Jesus Christ? That is not correct; there are no surviving "original" anything date before the crucifixion.
There are Byzantine Greek manuscripts dating to the 3rd Century! That's older than the OT Masoretic Texts by 6 centuries!

The Latin Vulgate dates to the 4th Century, and nobody aint complaining nothing about no Vulgate not being legit, aint it?

When it comes to learning the beautiful things of God, it's good to ask questions and to question all answers publishing company put out there, for God alone is Sovereign, and He will always tell you the Truth! The Lord is good.

 

[BananaPie]

In 1 John Chapter 5 Verse 7
The King James Version states :"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." This sounds like the trinity
However the earlier manuscript in the New International version states : "For there are three that testify"

Isn't this proof an alteration to the later manuscripts and show a sense of corruption.

No, there is no corruption in the Majority Texts manuscripts. In fact, there are no manuscript to this day showing anywhere that 1 John 5:7 was altered or "written in the margin" or whatever MSS have it say/not say... etc. That is simply propaganda from the opposing publishing camp.

Furthermore, the riddle is ancient: dating to Paul's time in which gnostics where questioning the the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Before the internet existed and you were a toddler, Yours Truly spent about 4 years researching in libraries in 3 different countries all kinds of neat stuff regarding the comma johanneum (or la coma joánica, as I know it in Spanish) 1 John 5:7. My years of research lead me to the conclusion that, according to the Bible, there exists one God, the Father; one Holy Spirit of God, and there exists only one Jesus Christ who is Emmanuel (God with us), and all three are One, inseparable Elohim; therefore, 1 John 5:7 is very relevant to it's veracity and authenticity in the flow of the entire chapter 5 in 1 John.

May you too have the longing to search for God's truth and find Christ in the process as I have, for the reward of knowing God is far greater and better than any other knowledge collectively known to man.

 

[BananaPie]

it is if you are trying to prove that Jesus is not really God.

True. Would you also agree that it is impossible to prove that Jesus is not God?

Just the fact that atheists can find all kind of dinosaur bones, which they claim to be thousands of years old, and they publish all kinds of elaborate fairy tales and fables of dinosaurs, yet for as tiny as the Old City of Jerusalem is, nobody has been able to find the grave of Jesus: the most famous Man ever to exist, let alone find His holy bones!

...huh... You don't suppose the Lord Jesus Christ resurrected, do you? Perhaps He never died? ...but if He never died, does that mean He never existed? ...hmm? What was the question again?

Don't you just love the Lord God Most Holy as He looks upon us sinners from His awesome throne of glory?

 

[Nick01]

No, there is no corruption in the Majority Texts manuscripts. In fact, there are no manuscript to this day showing anywhere that 1 John 5:7 was altered or "written in the margin" or whatever MSS have it say/not say... etc. That is simply propaganda from the opposing publishing camp.

Furthermore, the riddle is ancient: dating to Paul's time in which gnostics where questioning the the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Before the internet existed and you were a toddler, Yours Truly spent about 4 years researching in libraries in 3 different countries all kinds of neat stuff regarding the comma johanneum (or la coma joánica, as I know it in Spanish) 1 John 5:7. My years of research lead me to the conclusion that, according to the Bible, there exists one God, the Father; one Holy Spirit of God, and there exists only one Jesus Christ who is Emmanuel (God with us), and all three are One, inseparable Elohim; therefore, 1 John 5:7 is very relevant to it's veracity and authenticity in the flow of the entire chapter 5 in 1 John.

May you too have the longing to search for God's truth and find Christ in the process as I have, for the reward of knowing God is far greater and better than any other knowledge collectively known to man.

But by your research you would, of course, concede that there is no greek manuscript before the 15th century that we have, and no Latin before the 7th, that includes the Comma. So the only way to make the case for the Comma, as a more compelling argument than against the Comma, is the circumstantial case around its attestation in other contemporary writings, yes?

The idea that the comma maintains the flow of John as much applies to the critical reading as it does the majority, and so isn't useful in discerning its authenticity. And whether or not the Trinity is the teaching of the whole Bible (which I believe it is) is irrelevant to whether that teaching is authentically written in entirely explicit form here.

And of course, you will be aware that the Comma does appear as a gloss in some manuscripts. That's not really proof for anything, given how late those manuscripts are to start with, but it's overly reductionist to say they were not 'written in the margin,' because in some manuscripts (eg Codex Regis), it is.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you and sorry. My given 'back off' words then, are for those who oppose the word 'Trinity' and want to continue again in contentious debates that this word in not scriptural and ever should be mentioned at all and also you have highlighted about them in your tread.

The truth you are looking for is not in the Translation errors and their contradictions that also make the Muslims to find faults with and dispute with us about them. But spiritually on the contrary understand that the HOLY SPIRIT has the simple answers which is hidden to all Pagan's carnal understanding.

Why do we have to respond the same?

All Translations can be reliable because the HOLY SPIRIT is the Heavenly Teacher who can sum them all up for us, HIS Scriptural words together in order to tell humble faithful readers, the hidden knowledge of sound doctrine of the truth story.
Take for example the four Gospels;
1. Are the four written and documented in the same words to words and stories to stories? No!
2. Have you consider in this way by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT that, It is only to confuse the Pagans, who try to ignorantly read it themselves and in blindness find faults to disapprove it?
3. So, do born again and pagans have anything in common to think, debate, dispute and disregard what is true?
4. Is our understanding is of the carnal growth like them, when we are called to spiritual growth?

The HOLY SPIRIT is the only answer for all believers because HE is our Helper and Teacher, whom the LORD JESUS CHRIST have anointed us with. He can sum them all up for us to grow in sound doctrine that we in time to come don't need all this translations to speak for us but out of our mouth utters even greatly in sound doctrine for the listening people to be amazed.
As it is written in the book of Acts that Stephen being filled with the HOLY SPIRIT and without any documentation proofs, confessed sound doctrine to the ignorant beginning from Abraham to JESUS of Nazareth.

Please also 'back off' and come out from this astray vain justifications because they come from our selfish feelings and desire's stubborn senses 'self'. Then one can humbly journey on according to the Truth, acknowledging the HOLY SPIRIT, who also holds the Key to HIS inspired Holy Scriptures, all that is written in the Holy Bible with it's many Translations available until today.

There is always an answer why the LIVING GOD will all of this to happen and many others to be in unexplained existence. According to the Living Truth, they are all in existence not to bring confusion among believers but hidden sound doctrine to Pagans and truth justification in all believers.

 

[jag1977]

If a book is written in 5 different languages and all understood by 5 different races the same, what does it prove that words are rearranged in one language? Understanding is of God. Asking these questions i get answers that may very well be true interpretations from God through man but if He doesn't want me to see or i haven't received his guidance then I could be living in his kingdom shown to me by many and I will never understand.