-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Yeah, I would alos like to hear from Baptists in general about any of these things. I've got a few other observations on Baptist churches-
I'm from Indiana, not the south, but even in my hometown, I've noticed that the term "Baptist" really includes a rather wide range of belief. In addition to the things already mentioned, there is a huge difference in the music programs around here. In my neck of the woods, we talk about "white baptist churches" and "black baptist churches."
Of course, neither one is exclusive, they'll welcome anybody in, but I personally enjoy the music service at the "black baptist churches" a lot more. "Make a joyful noise unto the L-rd" right? So, hey, if you're happy to be alive, and with your brethren, by all means let it show!
But I remember the "white baptist church" that I was saved in. Oddly, they are much more racially integrated now AND they're not NEARLY as uptight about some things as they used to be. I think what did it was they had always taught that a person who committed suicide died with an unconfessed/unforgiven sin, and thus that person would go to hell... well that changed when pastor himself had a terminal illness, and in the last stages took his own life via an overdose of his medications. Now they don't teach that anymore.
But before they changed, they used to get so silly with some of the rules. Any kind of music that had drums, or maybe just in a 4/4 time signature was considered to be evil.. I specifically remember them talking about the pagans in Africa beating on drums, which now that I think about it, would explain why not too many black folks kept coming back at the time.
Also skateboarding. They even admitted the action of skateboarding ITSELF wasn't really evil, but insisted that since SOME skateboarders do bad things, that Christian kids shouldn't do it so they didn't have the appearance of evil, or something along those lines.
But what made me give up on them (as far as being my home church) was when they kicked my friend out of the high school they ran, because she had gotten pregnant. I mean, who needs more badly to know that G-d still loves them, then a single teenage mother that's suddenly forced to grow up all at once? And how can we, as the body of Messiah, turn OUR backs on unwed mothers, when in fact our Messiah Himself was conceived by an unwed teenage girl ?
I'm from Indiana, not the south, but even in my hometown, I've noticed that the term "Baptist" really includes a rather wide range of belief. In addition to the things already mentioned, there is a huge difference in the music programs around here. In my neck of the woods, we talk about "white baptist churches" and "black baptist churches."
Of course, neither one is exclusive, they'll welcome anybody in, but I personally enjoy the music service at the "black baptist churches" a lot more. "Make a joyful noise unto the L-rd" right? So, hey, if you're happy to be alive, and with your brethren, by all means let it show!
But I remember the "white baptist church" that I was saved in. Oddly, they are much more racially integrated now AND they're not NEARLY as uptight about some things as they used to be. I think what did it was they had always taught that a person who committed suicide died with an unconfessed/unforgiven sin, and thus that person would go to hell... well that changed when pastor himself had a terminal illness, and in the last stages took his own life via an overdose of his medications. Now they don't teach that anymore.
But before they changed, they used to get so silly with some of the rules. Any kind of music that had drums, or maybe just in a 4/4 time signature was considered to be evil.. I specifically remember them talking about the pagans in Africa beating on drums, which now that I think about it, would explain why not too many black folks kept coming back at the time.
Also skateboarding. They even admitted the action of skateboarding ITSELF wasn't really evil, but insisted that since SOME skateboarders do bad things, that Christian kids shouldn't do it so they didn't have the appearance of evil, or something along those lines.
But what made me give up on them (as far as being my home church) was when they kicked my friend out of the high school they ran, because she had gotten pregnant. I mean, who needs more badly to know that G-d still loves them, then a single teenage mother that's suddenly forced to grow up all at once? And how can we, as the body of Messiah, turn OUR backs on unwed mothers, when in fact our Messiah Himself was conceived by an unwed teenage girl ?
Well, everyone knows that it's not the true timing of his birth. Not the point. Point is, we celebrate it. When I said they "cancelled" Christmas, I was just making light of the fact that they got rid of Christmas trees and all the other stuff folks did to celebrate his birth. Yeah yeah, insert pagan whateverness. To call it unbiblical just takes sola scriptura to a whole other level. I assume you're playing the Pagan card on this? Are you familiar with the Julian Calendar?
And Christians have been crossing themselves since circa 100 AD. We carry our cross.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
It's just a vital part of Christian living and having it there in different forms to aid us in keeping it in our minds is good stuff.
We don't have 50,000 denominations because people want to focus on his death but because we have folks that don't understand what came before them or they demonize what they don't now in the name of creating some new or seemingly "better" and so they mutate into something unrecognizable to what proceeded it. All these denominations of course say that they are "biblical" which is just a way of saying that they use the bible to justify their personal traditions which have roots in a time that don't make it all the way back to the Apostles. And naturally everyone else also says that it's the Holy Spirit leading them into these conflicting schisms.
And Christians have been crossing themselves since circa 100 AD. We carry our cross.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
It's just a vital part of Christian living and having it there in different forms to aid us in keeping it in our minds is good stuff.
We don't have 50,000 denominations because people want to focus on his death but because we have folks that don't understand what came before them or they demonize what they don't now in the name of creating some new or seemingly "better" and so they mutate into something unrecognizable to what proceeded it. All these denominations of course say that they are "biblical" which is just a way of saying that they use the bible to justify their personal traditions which have roots in a time that don't make it all the way back to the Apostles. And naturally everyone else also says that it's the Holy Spirit leading them into these conflicting schisms.
I wish everyone DID understand that it wasn't really the time of year He was born. I believe there would be far less controversy every year, about pushing for "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" if we all just recognized that it's a secular holiday, anyway, not a biblical one. *I* am troubled by Christmas trees, too. They're mentioned in Jeremiah 10, and have no natural connection to the celebration of His birth, at ANY time of year.
"Playing the pagan card" ? No I'm playing the biblical card. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where we are instructed to abstain from secular celebrations. I see no problem with believers observing Labor Day, Thanksgiving, their country's Independence Day, etc.. and I would see no problem with celebrating Christmas as the secular celebration it is, either...
But I think many Christians DO consider it to be a regliious holiday, and unfortunately, most people who do celebrate it as a religious holiday, simultaneously neglect to keep the biblical feasts and festivals which G-d instructed us to keep. THAT part troubles me, but no, it's got little to do with paganism.
I'm vaguely familiar with the Julian Calendar. I understnad it wax only relatively recent that it was replaced with the more universal Gregorian calendar. As for me, having a civil calendar is fine, but if I'm going beyond that to any other, the most important in my book would be the biblical calendar. I think it's really quite fascinating stuff. Like the Book of Enoch (which Jude quotes and refers to as a prophet) explains a 364 day calendar, and still understood that it was not quite accurate enough.
It just blows my mind how ahead of his time that was. But then again, if G-d laid it all out for him, I suppose we needn't be amazed, eh ?
Yeah, I know the symbolism of the cross dates back beyond the formation of the Catholic church, but I still think it misses the point. Yes, Yeshua used the symbolism to remind us that His path was not an easy one, but I still think there is an undue focus on the way He died. Yes, it is important, but if we as the body of believers, really put our focus on living as He did... yeah, there might still some divisions and different denominations, but I think at the very least, we would have a greater sense of respect for another, and not the often ugly things said back and forth among these groupings.
"Playing the pagan card" ? No I'm playing the biblical card. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where we are instructed to abstain from secular celebrations. I see no problem with believers observing Labor Day, Thanksgiving, their country's Independence Day, etc.. and I would see no problem with celebrating Christmas as the secular celebration it is, either...
But I think many Christians DO consider it to be a regliious holiday, and unfortunately, most people who do celebrate it as a religious holiday, simultaneously neglect to keep the biblical feasts and festivals which G-d instructed us to keep. THAT part troubles me, but no, it's got little to do with paganism.
I'm vaguely familiar with the Julian Calendar. I understnad it wax only relatively recent that it was replaced with the more universal Gregorian calendar. As for me, having a civil calendar is fine, but if I'm going beyond that to any other, the most important in my book would be the biblical calendar. I think it's really quite fascinating stuff. Like the Book of Enoch (which Jude quotes and refers to as a prophet) explains a 364 day calendar, and still understood that it was not quite accurate enough.
It just blows my mind how ahead of his time that was. But then again, if G-d laid it all out for him, I suppose we needn't be amazed, eh ?
Yeah, I know the symbolism of the cross dates back beyond the formation of the Catholic church, but I still think it misses the point. Yes, Yeshua used the symbolism to remind us that His path was not an easy one, but I still think there is an undue focus on the way He died. Yes, it is important, but if we as the body of believers, really put our focus on living as He did... yeah, there might still some divisions and different denominations, but I think at the very least, we would have a greater sense of respect for another, and not the often ugly things said back and forth among these groupings.
I think the overwhelming urge here is to attack a particular denomination for believing a certain way. Now having said that I don't agree with any churches stance if it is contrary to God's word.. Every denomination or non denomination has error in it's teaching. It's flawed, it always will be when Man gets his hands involved in anything it gets messed up. No one is perfect some do it because they have no idea they are doing it. It goes along the face of what humankind is. From the beginning men have sought to be God have in themselves, hence the reason for the fall.
Take God's commands for what they are if he says be filled with the spirit thats what it means, if he says don't get drunk thats what it means. We have to stop taking God's word and manipulating to suit our own needs. As I said every church is in error in some way. We have to take what God gives us use the gifts he gave for his glory not for ours, and continue to love one another with an unconditional love as Christ loves the church.
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."- Ephesians 5:18
Dont' get drunk very simple command, but be filled with the spirit. Honestly to me I have no issue with dancing at all as long as it is done in order. Grinding in the church isn't orderly, tango in the church isn't orderly. Be filled with Spirit I'll post a new thread about that soon.. God Bless, and have a great day
Take God's commands for what they are if he says be filled with the spirit thats what it means, if he says don't get drunk thats what it means. We have to stop taking God's word and manipulating to suit our own needs. As I said every church is in error in some way. We have to take what God gives us use the gifts he gave for his glory not for ours, and continue to love one another with an unconditional love as Christ loves the church.
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."- Ephesians 5:18
Dont' get drunk very simple command, but be filled with the spirit. Honestly to me I have no issue with dancing at all as long as it is done in order. Grinding in the church isn't orderly, tango in the church isn't orderly. Be filled with Spirit I'll post a new thread about that soon.. God Bless, and have a great day
This has always confused me. On one hand the thought expressed here is that we shouldn't "attack" a denomination for "believing" a certain way. In other words, even though people have conflicting beliefs in regards to "beliefs" then one of the two must be wrong. Take that and look at the 50,000 denominations and the fact that it's nearly impossible to find two individuals within the same denomination that agree across the board, and we have millions of conflicting beliefs. Then on the other hand you say the thought expresses that we can't agree with any church if it's contrary to God's word and even admit that EVERY denomination has error in its teaching.
My question, if I were a non-believer, might go like this:
If you can't agree with any Church that isn't biblical but admit that every Church is in error (non-biblical) then technically we can't agree with any church because we're all just grabbing at straws here. You allude to the Holy Spirit but obviously if EVERY one is in error then the Holy Spirit has only given nuggets of truth to this one here and that one there and a little nugget to Sally even though she's wrong on this and that and a nugget to Joe even though he's wrong on that and this?
How am I supposed to pass this down to my children? How am I supposed to explain this to outsiders without making up excuses for the fact that it just doesn't add up? Is anyone else at all wondering if this ecclesiology is totally off base? Not particularly yours, Kdizzle but the bulk of protestant ecclessiology.
Again, this confuses me. So, take the bible literally. Name one church that doesn't consider itself biblical? I mean, the reason Methodists aren't Baptists are because they disagree on what it is they read. Both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Both have bibles and can read. Both pray and wish to serve God. On the other hand, they both can't be right or Truth isn't Truth at all but simply what you make it. It tells any person that is looking from the outside in that the Truth is relative, subjective, what you make it, what seems right to you.
The common response to this is let the Holy Spirit guide you and He will teach you the truth. I don't disagree with this but do you honestly believe that the Methodists aren't letting the Holy Spirit guide them or the Baptists are resisting the Holy Spirit? What is it that keeps the two from agreeing and having a like mind? Even though they refuse to be 1 they still insist they are both The Church?
Seriously, no one? Surely you know that you can't just reduce sound doctrine to a marketplace of ideas where above the truth the people are commended for lifting up the banner of opinion.
I agree but that can't mean that when people call a lie The Truth we simply sit idly by for the fear that someone might think we're being divisive. Honestly, can we water down the Truth? or can we at least be honest enough to say that we just don't make sense and are probably just as wrong if not more than we are right - collectively (from a protestant perspective, and I'm lumping the self-proclaimed non-denominations into protestantism).
Pluralism is the enemy of The Truth and it seems that there are people that call themselves Christian that seem to whole-heartedly embrace it in the name of self-preservation.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
(notice here that the Truth doesn't read, "whatever way seems right to you based on the letter I've sent to you, do it THAT way - notice it doesn't read, "even though you have conflicting opinions on what it is I wrote to you, simply agree to disagree for the sake of appearing "agreeable" and break off into different schisms. Neither does the letter read, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of opinions which are relative, subjective, cultural, dependent upon the culture, times and subjective to any civilization or global "progress".)
1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 3:1
[ On Divisions in the Church ] Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
(notice here that he's not talking about a local single do-it-as-it-seems-right-to-them-personally "church")
How can we reconcile our conflicting ecclesiology with scripture and save face? We can't. Jesus even prays that it won't (and it won't).
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
I highlighted verse 15 and 20 for the folks that might believe in the rapture....
Can't get much clearer than that. He asks that his followers not be taken out of the world and goes onto to clarify that this prayer is not only for the followers that are present at the time Jesus prayed this prayer but also for ALL believers that will believe in him through the message of the disciples.
In a weird way this reply relates to the dancing thing because the dancing thing is just yet another little red flag that The Truth is low on the priority list.
Seek first the Kingdom...
God bless
My question, if I were a non-believer, might go like this:
If you can't agree with any Church that isn't biblical but admit that every Church is in error (non-biblical) then technically we can't agree with any church because we're all just grabbing at straws here. You allude to the Holy Spirit but obviously if EVERY one is in error then the Holy Spirit has only given nuggets of truth to this one here and that one there and a little nugget to Sally even though she's wrong on this and that and a nugget to Joe even though he's wrong on that and this?
How am I supposed to pass this down to my children? How am I supposed to explain this to outsiders without making up excuses for the fact that it just doesn't add up? Is anyone else at all wondering if this ecclesiology is totally off base? Not particularly yours, Kdizzle but the bulk of protestant ecclessiology.
Again, this confuses me. So, take the bible literally. Name one church that doesn't consider itself biblical? I mean, the reason Methodists aren't Baptists are because they disagree on what it is they read. Both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Both have bibles and can read. Both pray and wish to serve God. On the other hand, they both can't be right or Truth isn't Truth at all but simply what you make it. It tells any person that is looking from the outside in that the Truth is relative, subjective, what you make it, what seems right to you.
The common response to this is let the Holy Spirit guide you and He will teach you the truth. I don't disagree with this but do you honestly believe that the Methodists aren't letting the Holy Spirit guide them or the Baptists are resisting the Holy Spirit? What is it that keeps the two from agreeing and having a like mind? Even though they refuse to be 1 they still insist they are both The Church?
Seriously, no one? Surely you know that you can't just reduce sound doctrine to a marketplace of ideas where above the truth the people are commended for lifting up the banner of opinion.
I agree but that can't mean that when people call a lie The Truth we simply sit idly by for the fear that someone might think we're being divisive. Honestly, can we water down the Truth? or can we at least be honest enough to say that we just don't make sense and are probably just as wrong if not more than we are right - collectively (from a protestant perspective, and I'm lumping the self-proclaimed non-denominations into protestantism).
Pluralism is the enemy of The Truth and it seems that there are people that call themselves Christian that seem to whole-heartedly embrace it in the name of self-preservation.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
(notice here that the Truth doesn't read, "whatever way seems right to you based on the letter I've sent to you, do it THAT way - notice it doesn't read, "even though you have conflicting opinions on what it is I wrote to you, simply agree to disagree for the sake of appearing "agreeable" and break off into different schisms. Neither does the letter read, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of opinions which are relative, subjective, cultural, dependent upon the culture, times and subjective to any civilization or global "progress".)
1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 3:1
[ On Divisions in the Church ] Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
(notice here that he's not talking about a local single do-it-as-it-seems-right-to-them-personally "church")
How can we reconcile our conflicting ecclesiology with scripture and save face? We can't. Jesus even prays that it won't (and it won't).
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
I highlighted verse 15 and 20 for the folks that might believe in the rapture....
Can't get much clearer than that. He asks that his followers not be taken out of the world and goes onto to clarify that this prayer is not only for the followers that are present at the time Jesus prayed this prayer but also for ALL believers that will believe in him through the message of the disciples.
In a weird way this reply relates to the dancing thing because the dancing thing is just yet another little red flag that The Truth is low on the priority list.
Seek first the Kingdom...
God bless
J
That sure brough memories of the excellent wonders of the united pentecostal church (satire here)
There is nothing wrong with having a drink as long as you do not enter into drunkeness. That is why the scripture says, "be not filled with wine but be filled with the spirit". I have danced unto the Lord in the past with other Christians during an assembly and had a true blast! Dancing in the spirit is not vulgar. Jesus would never have you do anything to bring him shame or embarass others.
Remember though when the Moses was up on the mount and Aaron built the golden calf and the children of Irael rose up to drink and to dance and commited fornication. Their boredom from waiting for Moses as well as Aaron being a wussy and appeasing the Israelites got them into terrible trouble. They were delivered from Egypt and came that far and then all of a sudden, they "fell away".
I remember when I went to the UPC church I always wore dresses so as to not offend anybody but at home I wore my pants and when a member of the UPC came by they gave me this look of condemnation and I was pretty bold in telling them the reason why I only wore dresses when I went on Sundays and during the week. I also had very long hair but they didn't even care about that until one time, I put my long hair up on my head and boy did I get lots of approval from the leadership and other members!! To them, a woman wearing her hair up on her head was holiness!! In the meantime, when my husband and I would not do other legalism of the denomination, the pastor sicked the big stout UPC women after me!! They liked to back you into a corner. You heard the most ugly gossip in that church but gluttony and gossiping was an accepted sin. Also, you were told to never wear any clothes that shows the "armpits". If any man got turned on from a bare armpit, he really needs deliiverance!! YIKES! My husband had to shave his beard in order to play drums in the music ministry. Just think of how all the apostles had beards. Even in the old testament I think it was a shame and disgrace for a man to have his beard plucked or something like that. I think that God gives a man a beard like the Lord has given the male lion a mane
There is nothing wrong with having a drink as long as you do not enter into drunkeness. That is why the scripture says, "be not filled with wine but be filled with the spirit". I have danced unto the Lord in the past with other Christians during an assembly and had a true blast! Dancing in the spirit is not vulgar. Jesus would never have you do anything to bring him shame or embarass others.
Remember though when the Moses was up on the mount and Aaron built the golden calf and the children of Irael rose up to drink and to dance and commited fornication. Their boredom from waiting for Moses as well as Aaron being a wussy and appeasing the Israelites got them into terrible trouble. They were delivered from Egypt and came that far and then all of a sudden, they "fell away".
I remember when I went to the UPC church I always wore dresses so as to not offend anybody but at home I wore my pants and when a member of the UPC came by they gave me this look of condemnation and I was pretty bold in telling them the reason why I only wore dresses when I went on Sundays and during the week. I also had very long hair but they didn't even care about that until one time, I put my long hair up on my head and boy did I get lots of approval from the leadership and other members!! To them, a woman wearing her hair up on her head was holiness!! In the meantime, when my husband and I would not do other legalism of the denomination, the pastor sicked the big stout UPC women after me!! They liked to back you into a corner. You heard the most ugly gossip in that church but gluttony and gossiping was an accepted sin. Also, you were told to never wear any clothes that shows the "armpits". If any man got turned on from a bare armpit, he really needs deliiverance!! YIKES! My husband had to shave his beard in order to play drums in the music ministry. Just think of how all the apostles had beards. Even in the old testament I think it was a shame and disgrace for a man to have his beard plucked or something like that. I think that God gives a man a beard like the Lord has given the male lion a mane
This has always confused me. On one hand the thought expressed here is that we shouldn't "attack" a denomination for "believing" a certain way. In other words, even though people have conflicting beliefs in regards to "beliefs" then one of the two must be wrong. Take that and look at the 50,000 denominations and the fact that it's nearly impossible to find two individuals within the same denomination that agree across the board, and we have millions of conflicting beliefs. Then on the other hand you say the thought expresses that we can't agree with any church if it's contrary to God's word and even admit that EVERY denomination has error in its teaching.
My question, if I were a non-believer, might go like this:
If you can't agree with any Church that isn't biblical but admit that every Church is in error (non-biblical) then technically we can't agree with any church because we're all just grabbing at straws here. You allude to the Holy Spirit but obviously if EVERY one is in error then the Holy Spirit has only given nuggets of truth to this one here and that one there and a little nugget to Sally even though she's wrong on this and that and a nugget to Joe even though he's wrong on that and this?
How am I supposed to pass this down to my children? How am I supposed to explain this to outsiders without making up excuses for the fact that it just doesn't add up? Is anyone else at all wondering if this ecclesiology is totally off base? Not particularly yours, Kdizzle but the bulk of protestant ecclessiology.
Again, this confuses me. So, take the bible literally. Name one church that doesn't consider itself biblical? I mean, the reason Methodists aren't Baptists are because they disagree on what it is they read. Both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Both have bibles and can read. Both pray and wish to serve God. On the other hand, they both can't be right or Truth isn't Truth at all but simply what you make it. It tells any person that is looking from the outside in that the Truth is relative, subjective, what you make it, what seems right to you.
The common response to this is let the Holy Spirit guide you and He will teach you the truth. I don't disagree with this but do you honestly believe that the Methodists aren't letting the Holy Spirit guide them or the Baptists are resisting the Holy Spirit? What is it that keeps the two from agreeing and having a like mind? Even though they refuse to be 1 they still insist they are both The Church?
Seriously, no one? Surely you know that you can't just reduce sound doctrine to a marketplace of ideas where above the truth the people are commended for lifting up the banner of opinion.
I agree but that can't mean that when people call a lie The Truth we simply sit idly by for the fear that someone might think we're being divisive. Honestly, can we water down the Truth? or can we at least be honest enough to say that we just don't make sense and are probably just as wrong if not more than we are right - collectively (from a protestant perspective, and I'm lumping the self-proclaimed non-denominations into protestantism).
Pluralism is the enemy of The Truth and it seems that there are people that call themselves Christian that seem to whole-heartedly embrace it in the name of self-preservation.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
(notice here that the Truth doesn't read, "whatever way seems right to you based on the letter I've sent to you, do it THAT way - notice it doesn't read, "even though you have conflicting opinions on what it is I wrote to you, simply agree to disagree for the sake of appearing "agreeable" and break off into different schisms. Neither does the letter read, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of opinions which are relative, subjective, cultural, dependent upon the culture, times and subjective to any civilization or global "progress".)
1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 3:1
[ On Divisions in the Church ] Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
(notice here that he's not talking about a local single do-it-as-it-seems-right-to-them-personally "church")
How can we reconcile our conflicting ecclesiology with scripture and save face? We can't. Jesus even prays that it won't (and it won't).
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
I highlighted verse 15 and 20 for the folks that might believe in the rapture....
Can't get much clearer than that. He asks that his followers not be taken out of the world and goes onto to clarify that this prayer is not only for the followers that are present at the time Jesus prayed this prayer but also for ALL believers that will believe in him through the message of the disciples.
In a weird way this reply relates to the dancing thing because the dancing thing is just yet another little red flag that The Truth is low on the priority list.
Seek first the Kingdom...
God bless
My question, if I were a non-believer, might go like this:
If you can't agree with any Church that isn't biblical but admit that every Church is in error (non-biblical) then technically we can't agree with any church because we're all just grabbing at straws here. You allude to the Holy Spirit but obviously if EVERY one is in error then the Holy Spirit has only given nuggets of truth to this one here and that one there and a little nugget to Sally even though she's wrong on this and that and a nugget to Joe even though he's wrong on that and this?
How am I supposed to pass this down to my children? How am I supposed to explain this to outsiders without making up excuses for the fact that it just doesn't add up? Is anyone else at all wondering if this ecclesiology is totally off base? Not particularly yours, Kdizzle but the bulk of protestant ecclessiology.
Again, this confuses me. So, take the bible literally. Name one church that doesn't consider itself biblical? I mean, the reason Methodists aren't Baptists are because they disagree on what it is they read. Both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Both have bibles and can read. Both pray and wish to serve God. On the other hand, they both can't be right or Truth isn't Truth at all but simply what you make it. It tells any person that is looking from the outside in that the Truth is relative, subjective, what you make it, what seems right to you.
The common response to this is let the Holy Spirit guide you and He will teach you the truth. I don't disagree with this but do you honestly believe that the Methodists aren't letting the Holy Spirit guide them or the Baptists are resisting the Holy Spirit? What is it that keeps the two from agreeing and having a like mind? Even though they refuse to be 1 they still insist they are both The Church?
Seriously, no one? Surely you know that you can't just reduce sound doctrine to a marketplace of ideas where above the truth the people are commended for lifting up the banner of opinion.
I agree but that can't mean that when people call a lie The Truth we simply sit idly by for the fear that someone might think we're being divisive. Honestly, can we water down the Truth? or can we at least be honest enough to say that we just don't make sense and are probably just as wrong if not more than we are right - collectively (from a protestant perspective, and I'm lumping the self-proclaimed non-denominations into protestantism).
Pluralism is the enemy of The Truth and it seems that there are people that call themselves Christian that seem to whole-heartedly embrace it in the name of self-preservation.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
(notice here that the Truth doesn't read, "whatever way seems right to you based on the letter I've sent to you, do it THAT way - notice it doesn't read, "even though you have conflicting opinions on what it is I wrote to you, simply agree to disagree for the sake of appearing "agreeable" and break off into different schisms. Neither does the letter read, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of opinions which are relative, subjective, cultural, dependent upon the culture, times and subjective to any civilization or global "progress".)
1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 3:1
[ On Divisions in the Church ] Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
(notice here that he's not talking about a local single do-it-as-it-seems-right-to-them-personally "church")
How can we reconcile our conflicting ecclesiology with scripture and save face? We can't. Jesus even prays that it won't (and it won't).
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
I highlighted verse 15 and 20 for the folks that might believe in the rapture....
Can't get much clearer than that. He asks that his followers not be taken out of the world and goes onto to clarify that this prayer is not only for the followers that are present at the time Jesus prayed this prayer but also for ALL believers that will believe in him through the message of the disciples.
In a weird way this reply relates to the dancing thing because the dancing thing is just yet another little red flag that The Truth is low on the priority list.
Seek first the Kingdom...
God bless
You know brother you make a lot of really valid points. I hope you don't think I was being double minded in my comments there. My belief is there is absolute truth, no church perfect they all have some type of doctrine inherent that is corrupt not because of God but because of Man. They also surely have something we can take good away from.
I've been to many different churches and you hope the one common unifying point is Salvation through Christ. You hope one common point is the Shema in Deuteronomy chapter 6:5. "love the your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." You hope they follow those two God based commands.
Unfortunately there are a lot of churches denom and non denom that refuse to teach salvation in its purest form. They refuse to teach repentance because its not politically correct and they don't want to offend people and lose there money. It's sad thats what the body of Christ has dwindled down to. Thank the Lord for good MInistries that are accountable to Christ and Christ alone.
Thank the Lord for young men like you who seek the truth because you know who is truth. God Bless you brother. I sent you another add on facebook, wondering why you deleted me. Anyway i hope my last post didnt' come off contradictory..
God Bless
Keith
J
In 1 Corinthians 6:12 It say, All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient, all things are lawful to me but I will not be brought under the power of any. There are things we can do that are not necessary things that benefit our spirit man, but we have the liberty and freedom of the spirit to enjoy as long as there is not overindulgience. Jesus knew, or, God knew that when the Gentiles were brought into the family of God that all the Gentile nations because of having different customs and different foods and different days of celebration according to custom that nailing the law to the cross removes all condemnation from us to be who God has made us to be. Paul even said, Romans 13:7 & 8 Render therefore to all their dures, tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom: fear to who fear: honor to who honor. Owe no man anything, but to love one another for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
This is why it is so sad that when Roman Catholic and other denominations sent out their missionaries during the 19th century to places like Hawaii and other countries, they forced the people to dress like the white man and made them submit to white man customs instead of respecting their heritage and allowing the work of transformation by the Holy Spirit to work from the inside out. Instead the worldy church system did more damage than good.
This is why it is so sad that when Roman Catholic and other denominations sent out their missionaries during the 19th century to places like Hawaii and other countries, they forced the people to dress like the white man and made them submit to white man customs instead of respecting their heritage and allowing the work of transformation by the Holy Spirit to work from the inside out. Instead the worldy church system did more damage than good.
R
Ok I can understand the drinking, but drinking is only a sin if you get drunk. But then I understand why they may not want to partake of it at all. But what's so bad about dancing? And why do Baptists believe its a sin?
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod." 2 Samuel 6:14
There's a fine line between "dancing before the LORD" and dancing in a way that is sexually suggestive. I would definitely not say ALL types of dancing are sin, but a lot of them ARE sexually suggestive(which then makes it sin). Anything that the world does that does not glorify God is sin(and Christians shouldn't be following after things of the world).
Anyone teaching that "doing this or that" will cause someone to go to hell, better understand and teach that it is only by faith in Christ that one is saved, and once saved, they are secured forever...(Eph 1:13-14).
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod." 2 Samuel 6:14
There's a fine line between "dancing before the LORD" and dancing in a way that is sexually suggestive. I would definitely not say ALL types of dancing are sin, but a lot of them ARE sexually suggestive(which then makes it sin). Anything that the world does that does not glorify God is sin(and Christians shouldn't be following after things of the world).
Anyone teaching that "doing this or that" will cause someone to go to hell, better understand and teach that it is only by faith in Christ that one is saved, and once saved, they are secured forever...(Eph 1:13-14).
It's funny that you ignore how Jesus came and said that his burden was light, and the way he talked of how the Pharisees weighed people down with man-made, impossible requirements.
Yet a lot of people put this burden on people who are striving to follow God--the idea that everything we do, every day, must have some sort of religious significance, that it has to be consciously done for God or otherwise there is a moral error--as if having fun is a sin.
Yes, it's based on an admonishment to 'do all' for the glory of God, but the way you're interpreting it, it's an impossible burden to put on someone.
The point is to live your life in a way that pleases God--love others, trust God, avoid sin, be merciful.
Yet a lot of people put this burden on people who are striving to follow God--the idea that everything we do, every day, must have some sort of religious significance, that it has to be consciously done for God or otherwise there is a moral error--as if having fun is a sin.
Yes, it's based on an admonishment to 'do all' for the glory of God, but the way you're interpreting it, it's an impossible burden to put on someone.
The point is to live your life in a way that pleases God--love others, trust God, avoid sin, be merciful.
J
I grew up in a Baptist church, and even attended a Baptist college. Well, they took the "Baptist" out of their name awhile ago, but they're still considered a Baptist college by most I think. I was pretty much always taught in church that dancing and drinking were wrong, although I knew of plenty of people who did both outside of church. At college, there was a no drinking policy and I believe the way they wrote the rules, only choreographed dancing was allowed. I don't think that anyone ever really managed to explain why we had those rules. You were pretty much just expected to go along with it. I can see how either thing could lead to sin, but then so many other things can too, and we don't ban them. 
We even had a split in our church because of something so silly as having drums (very tame drums) and a guitar that someone dared plug into an amp in the evening service to go with a couple of praise choruses we sang instead of hymns.... I can't find anywhere in the Bible that would disallow that. I honestly think that it's just another way Satan attacks the church and tries to divide us.
We even had a split in our church because of something so silly as having drums (very tame drums) and a guitar that someone dared plug into an amp in the evening service to go with a couple of praise choruses we sang instead of hymns.... I can't find anywhere in the Bible that would disallow that. I honestly think that it's just another way Satan attacks the church and tries to divide us.
D
If this school is teaching this stuff to be a sin, then they should also teach you the reason behind it.....have you asked why?
I suggest you find out what is wrong and right by reading your bible, studying it and praying about your answers. Then stand in confidence (not arrogance), when your teachers contradict the truth you know from scripture. They can give you all the detentions they want but dont let them steal the truth from your heart. God will commend you for standing in faith in His truth, not theirs.
I suggest you find out what is wrong and right by reading your bible, studying it and praying about your answers. Then stand in confidence (not arrogance), when your teachers contradict the truth you know from scripture. They can give you all the detentions they want but dont let them steal the truth from your heart. God will commend you for standing in faith in His truth, not theirs.
They obviously are wrongly dividing God's Word in these areas.
Some religions just like commandments and doctrines of men.......that's how they keep people enslaved to their religion by making up rules trying to make the flesh perfect which can never happen......but it's the spirit of God, the new birth that's perfect, not the flesh
Some religions just like commandments and doctrines of men.......that's how they keep people enslaved to their religion by making up rules trying to make the flesh perfect which can never happen......but it's the spirit of God, the new birth that's perfect, not the flesh
- Status