The Israel of God

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 12, 2012
1,563
929
113
68
Stop with the lambasting, both sides! Some take the preterist position, some the futurist. There is warrant for both sides. We can all hold strongly to our positions but aren't we supposed to be known for our love! They'll know we are Christians by our love.

If you have to ridicule the other side then you really don't understand the issues. There are scholars on both sides of these issues. But they respect each other because much study has gone into both sides. If you don't understand that then you don't deserve to argue on either side of the issue.
There is no warrant to dispensationalism!
The Kingdom of God does not warrant one false prophecy, after another, day after day; for 300 yrs!
There are many people who love God under this spell of Satan;
they must decide for themselves.
I would say you don't deserve to argue your case here, how about that?
many blessings
 
B

BradC

Guest
Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.

This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.

It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC



none of your Dispensationalist comrades say anything about that ludicrous (yet oddly consistent) heresy.
i wonder why....Israel excluded from the Church. never promised to Israel.
heresy. damnable heresy.
You seem to be infatuated with attaching (not attacking) me to this post. The problem for you is that I wrote it but I am not attached to it and I understand what I said and you don't because of the 'dipsie veil' you have over your mind and heart. I explained it and you rejected the explanation, so that puts you in a predicament of practicing deceit. Many never commented because they probably knew exactly what I meant and you did not. You will never understand these things when you have hardened your heart to them. Only bitterness and resentment will follow you on this and not the love and grace of God with any understanding from the Spirit.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
Excalibur, understand this. To understand that the time of Jacob's trouble is past and the great and terrible day of the Lord has already occurred takes downplaying what the prophets say about these times. The preterist position consistently interprets the OT prophets as being hyperbolic, describing things in descriptive and imaginative language, like saying that this isn't literal about the sun and luminaries:i
6
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Yes, there are some pictures of this in the return from captivity, but the futurist position says that the prophets meant what they said, it isn't just a picture, the luminaries really will dwindle, there is real meaning here. To interpret this way, there must be gaps in the prophecy, like looking at a mountaintop and seeing several mountains but not seeing the valleys between. This may seem like inconsistency but here's the issue.

The Preterist sees fulfillment, but not literal fulfillment, just a picturesque spiritualized one that seems to diminish the intensity of what the prophets saw.

The Futurist sees real literal fulfillment, and to do so has to interpret gaps in the prophecy, which raises chronological questions.

The Preterist has interpretive problems, the Futurist has chronological problems. Satan may well have his hand in stirring the pot, but human fallibility probably also has a lot to do with it.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
There is no fruit and no benefit in Christ arguing with you and others about this. Go your way and believe as you wish and leave the others alone. Take your doctrine and go build a church with it, if you think it is of God and according to the scriptures. Let us know how fervent the believers are who you have given the gospel and led to Christ and the kind of relationship they have with the Lord. That is the proof and the fruit of a Spirit filled and Spirit led life that is constrained by the love of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified. If we abide in Christ and his words abide in us then we will bear MUCH fruit and that fruit will remain.
Do you not think NT teaching can stand on its own merit?
 
Oct 12, 2012
1,563
929
113
68
Excalibur, understand this. To understand that the time of Jacob's trouble is past and the great and terrible day of the Lord has already occurred takes downplaying what the prophets say about these times. The preterist position consistently interprets the OT prophets as being hyperbolic, describing things in descriptive and imaginative language, like saying that this isn't literal about the sun and luminaries:i
6
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Yes, there are some pictures of this in the return from captivity, but the futurist position says that the prophets meant what they said, it isn't just a picture, the luminaries really will dwindle, there is real meaning here. To interpret this way, there must be gaps in the prophecy, like looking at a mountaintop and seeing several mountains but not seeing the valleys between. This may seem like inconsistency but here's the issue.

The Preterist sees fulfillment, but not literal fulfillment, just a picturesque spiritualized one that seems to diminish the intensity of what the prophets saw.

The Futurist sees real literal fulfillment, and to do so has to interpret gaps in the prophecy, which raises chronological questions.

The Preterist has interpretive problems, the Futurist has chronological problems. Satan may well have his hand in stirring the pot, but human fallibility probably also has a lot to do with it.
Your putting your words in my mouth, and your twisting the prophetic words of the Ancient Prophets of Israel!
But that is what you people do.

All of these prophecies of Jacob's Trouble; and the Great And Terrible DAY of the Lord,
was aimed at the prophetic time of Jesus and the Early Church, 4bc to 70ad.
This was the prophetic timeline in the history of the world that changed everything!!!
Take your blinders off!

There is another prophetic timeline in the future of the Church, but you will never see it coming.
because your to busy trying to compromise, while speaking of things you know nothing of!

There is no gap, in the fulfilling of these certain prophecies of Ancient Israel.
You have been taught a LIE, through dispensationalism that there is a gap!
There is no gap! There is no supernatural GAP!

God does not work that way in prophetic things in His Word.
Isaiah, prophesied that Cyrus, would set captives free to return to Israel,
and 400 years later that's exactly what happened.
Jeremiah prophesied the Jews captivity for 70 years; and that's what happened.
Daniel prophesied 70 wks until Messiah, and destruction of the Old Way!
and that's exactly what happened.
All 3 of these prophecies were tied together through out a certain time period.

The only gap was between 30ad and 70ad;
between the 1st 31/2 yrs and 2nd 31/2 yrs of Dan 70 week.
and between this small gap was the fulfilling of other prophecies.

You cannot be this ignorant with all the tools available to you today,
that God would not leave something like this,
to test those in this hour who say they are of God, but are not!?


and there is yet prophecy to be fulfilled so don't put your words in my mouth.
There is no Gap!
many blessings
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
There are many gaps in prophetic scripture, you putting a gap in the middle of Daniel's 70th week has disastrously less evidence then seeing a more natural gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

I could say the same to you about all the tools at your disposal to see the truth of Dispensationalism. The conversation has been raging for many years, and there are Dispensationalists in every christian denomination. You are ignorant to think this is not so.

Here's Jesus understanding of a gap: He reads Isaiah and proclaims is fulfilled:

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

Jesus stops mid-sentence, and proclaims a gap, here is what Isaiah says:
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


So to Jesus, everything in bold is a gap waiting to be fulfilled. This is where I see a gap, where Jesus does.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Your putting your words in my mouth, and your twisting the prophetic words of the Ancient Prophets of Israel!
But that is what you people do.

All of these prophecies of Jacob's Trouble; and the Great And Terrible DAY of the Lord,
was aimed at the prophetic time of Jesus and the Early Church, 4bc to 70ad.
This was the prophetic timeline in the history of the world that changed everything!!!
Re: The Israel of God

if ppl don't know who is The Israel of God ; what do you expect?

the timeline in the history of the world that changed everything!, hasn't happened yet....seriously:rolleyes:
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
There are many gaps in prophetic scripture, you putting a gap in the middle of Daniel's 70th week has disastrously less evidence then seeing a more natural gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

I could say the same to you about all the tools at your disposal to see the truth of Dispensationalism. The conversation has been raging for many years, and there are Dispensationalists in every christian denomination. You are ignorant to think this is not so.

Here's Jesus understanding of a gap: He reads Isaiah and proclaims is fulfilled:

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

Jesus stops mid-sentence, and proclaims a gap, here is what Isaiah says:
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


So to Jesus, everything in bold is a gap waiting to be fulfilled. This is where I see a gap, where Jesus does.
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem

21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
 
B

BradC

Guest
Do you not think NT teaching can stand on its own merit?
Do you think that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the shed blood of that cross can stand on its own merit and finished work in providing salvation, cleansing and the forgiveness of sins that took place under the New Testament?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Do you think that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the shed blood of that cross can stand on its own merit and finished work in providing salvation, cleansing and the forgiveness of sins that took place under the New Testament?
but none of that was offered to Israel. it excluded them...their kingdom was postponed - until you fly away.
 
B

BradC

Guest
but none of that was offered to Israel. it excluded them...their kingdom was postponed - until you fly away.
Israel rejected him the first time he came except for a remnant, but they will receive him when he comes a second time and that will be their day and time of salvation for they will see him as he is and they shall mourn over the one who they rejected and pierced. That will be a great and notable day for those who live in confusion as to the Messiah and to the kingdom he will set up and reign over and there will be great rejoicing in heaven and on earth.
 
Oct 12, 2012
1,563
929
113
68
There are many gaps in prophetic scripture, you putting a gap in the middle of Daniel's 70th week has disastrously less evidence then seeing a more natural gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

I could say the same to you about all the tools at your disposal to see the truth of Dispensationalism. The conversation has been raging for many years, and there are Dispensationalists in every christian denomination. You are ignorant to think this is not so.

Here's Jesus understanding of a gap: He reads Isaiah and proclaims is fulfilled:

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

Jesus stops mid-sentence, and proclaims a gap, here is what Isaiah says:
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


So to Jesus, everything in bold is a gap waiting to be fulfilled. This is where I see a gap, where Jesus does.
Yes, thank you, konroh! Isaiah, prophecy was designated to a specific TIME;
to the prophetic timeline of Jesus and the Early Church!

Your twisting a prophecy of Ancient Israel and it's fulfillment (a designated time table);
with an undesignated gap with no time table of your choosing!
Making yourself the prophet, instead if interpreting the prophecy;
keep leading your sheep to the pit, because that's where your headed.

You do not understand the language of the Ancient Prophets of Israel,
if you study philosophy, you must learn the language;
psychology, you must learn the language;
a Scientist of any kind, you must learn the language;
if not with any of the above you can't get to the 2nd page.
But God knows how to hide things in plain sight,
so that He can keep the wicked until the day of their judgement.

There is no supernatural gap; this is just the new face of Gnosticism, hidden in Dispensationalism.
The Gnostic says He/she has hidden knowledge that only they can know,
they cannot share it with others, you must just trust them!
Christian Gnostic's hide it with multitude of Scriptures,
and say stuff like, me and Jesus believe in the same gaps?

Blow your smoke somewhere else!

many blessings
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
BradC said:
BradC said:
Elin said:
ChosenbyHim said:
The pre-trib. Rapture and Premillennialism are Bibilcal and it
is the only system which the Holy Bible teaches.
Please show pre-trib from certain and unequivocal NT teaching,

not from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,

which can be, and are
, interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

I do not find such teaching in the NT.

The teaching I do find is totally to the contrary.
ChosenbyHim, you do not have to show or prove a single thing to any of those who remain foolish hearted and have hangups because of their unbelief. Let them be who they are and live with their own leaven corrupting others with their foolish doctrine. Keep building yourself up in the most holy faith and in the love of God and let them wrestle with these things to their own hurt.
Rich. . .

It can't be done.
There is no fruit and no benefit in Christ arguing with you and others about this.
Go your way and believe as you wish and leave the others alone. Take your doctrine and go build a church with it, if you think it is of God and according to the scriptures. Let us know how fervent the believers are who you have given the gospel and led to Christ and the kind of relationship they have with the Lord. That is the proof and the fruit of a Spirit filled and Spirit led life that is constrained by the love of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified. If we abide in Christ and his words abide in us then we will bear MUCH fruit and that fruit will remain.
Do you not think NT teaching can stand on its own merit?
Do you think that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the shed blood of that cross can stand on its own merit and finished work in providing salvation, cleansing and the forgiveness of sins that took place under the New Testament?
Relevance?

I find no pre-trib in the presentation of those things.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
Relevance?

I find no pre-trib in the presentation of those things.

And you are clearly wrong. You are deceived Elin.

The Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. There are no Jews in the Body of Christ. There are only Christians (Gal. 3:28 & Col. 3:11).


In the time of Jacob's trouble, there are Jews (Rev. 7:3-8).


Therefore we know that the Church does not go through the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble.


You have to rightly divide the word of truth.
 
Last edited:
2

2Thewaters

Guest
You may not realize this:
In The original Aramaic the peoples names mean something...
and there is no punctiaton
no capitols
and no chapters
and no verses
Just a letter everything all run on

So Israel is Aramaic word that means to "RULE WITH GOD"

so sometimes the meaning or the name is interchangeable

in the original whenever ISRAEL is used they thought it was a name because they couldnt conceive of us ruling with God
but it actually means
THOSE WHO WILL RULE WITH GOD
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

the manchild are the children of the Woman church (who dies in childbirth) and the people that came out and were delivered of and from that woman will be the living 144,000....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
2

2Thewaters

Guest
This doesnt change anything it is just interesting
for when we are called ISRAEL
that MEANS we who rule with God anyway for that is what Israel means

so either way, same outcome. That is how you know it is inspired

when something is inpired it has many meanings...deeper and deeper
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
And you are clearly wrong. You are deceived Elin.

The Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.
There are no Jews in the Body of Christ. There are only Christians
(Gal. 3:28 & Col. 3:11).
There are also no Gentiles according to your reading of those verses,
so who then is in the Body of Christ. . .according to your reading of those verses?

Nor are these verses the certain and unequivocal teaching of pre-trib I requested.

My request goes unanswered, so I will repeat it:

Please show pre-trib from certain and unequivocal NT teaching,

not from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,

which can be, and are
, interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

I do not find such teaching in the NT.

The teaching I do find is totally to the contrary.







 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
There are also no Gentiles according to your reading of those verses,
so who then is in the Body of Christ. . .according to your reading of those verses?

Nor are these verses the certain and unequivocal teaching of pre-trib I requested.

My request goes unanswered,



I answered it.




so I will repeat it:

Please show pre-trib from certain and unequivocal NT teaching,

not from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,

which can be, and are
, interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

I do not find such teaching in the NT.

The teaching I do find is totally to the contrary.





I have been showing from the Scriptures the clear teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture for a good while now Elin.


In the Church Age today, every born again Christian has eternal security. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 and 4:30).


In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is only one group of sealed servants mentioned and that is the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the Children of Israel (Rev. 7:3-8). There is no other group of sealed saints and servants in the book of Revelation.


Therefore the body of Christ is already in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble even starts. There is a multitude of redeemed saints in Heaven from every kindred, tongue, people and nation (See Revelation 5:8-12). In fact, the four and twenty elders are already crowned with crowns of gold and clothed with white raiment in Revelation 4:4. Which means by Revelation 4:4, the Judgment Seat of Christ has already taken place and is completed. And keep in mind also Elin that this is almost 2 chapters before the antichrist is unleashed by the opening of the first seal in Revelation 6:1-2.

So again, this clearly shows Elin that there are already redeemed saints in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) even begins.
 
Oct 12, 2012
1,563
929
113
68



I answered it.







I have been showing from the Scriptures the clear teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture for a good while now Elin.


In the Church Age today, every born again Christian has eternal security. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 and 4:30).


In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is only one group of sealed servants mentioned and that is the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the Children of Israel (Rev. 7:3-8). There is no other group of sealed saints and servants in the book of Revelation.


Therefore the body of Christ is already in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble even starts. There is a multitude of redeemed saints in Heaven from every kindred, tongue, people and nation (See Revelation 5:8-12). In fact, the four and twenty elders are already crowned with crowns of gold and clothed with white raiment in Revelation 4:4. Which means by Revelation 4:4, the Judgment Seat of Christ has already taken place and is completed. And keep in mind also Elin that this is almost 2 chapters before the antichrist is unleashed by the opening of the first seal in Revelation 6:1-2.

So again, this clearly shows Elin that there are already redeemed saints in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) even begins.
your a blow hard Chosen! You don't know nothing about Daniel's 70th Week,
nor do you know what the time of Jacob's trouble even means,
nor do you know anything about the Great and terrible Day of the Lord!
many blessings