There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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A
[SUP]Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][h][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Questions:
1.) Yahweh is speaking here -- but if Yahweh is only the Father, why does He say, "they will look on Me whom they have pierced?"
2.) Why does Yahweh change tenses in the middle of the verse, starting out using "Me," and then switch to "Him?"
It seems to me, at least according to this verse, that Yahweh is at least two Persons.
10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][h][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Questions:
1.) Yahweh is speaking here -- but if Yahweh is only the Father, why does He say, "they will look on Me whom they have pierced?"
2.) Why does Yahweh change tenses in the middle of the verse, starting out using "Me," and then switch to "Him?"
It seems to me, at least according to this verse, that Yahweh is at least two Persons.
A
I'm sorry to hear that you'll be backing out of this debate. If you ever would like to talk to me privately about this subject, feel free to PM me at any time. I know how confusing debates like this can be in public forums. If you would prefer to talk about this with someone else on this site, I'm sure they would also welcome a private message from you.
I think instead of looking for "proving" and "disproving," the Trinity, it would be better to think in terms of "evidence for" and "evidence against." The doctrine of the Trinity, as other matters of Christian doctrine, really comes down to faith. As you can see from this debate, it's possible to "explain away" some of the proofs that are given....that doesn't mean that the explaining away is right....but I think that's what tends to happen when we go about this in terms of "proof."
In the end, a person must believe in the Trinity by faith.
I think instead of looking for "proving" and "disproving," the Trinity, it would be better to think in terms of "evidence for" and "evidence against." The doctrine of the Trinity, as other matters of Christian doctrine, really comes down to faith. As you can see from this debate, it's possible to "explain away" some of the proofs that are given....that doesn't mean that the explaining away is right....but I think that's what tends to happen when we go about this in terms of "proof."
In the end, a person must believe in the Trinity by faith.
A
Thanks. I'll turn that around and say that I hope that you find the truth. Do look over some of the Scripture that I quoted earlier, such as the Isaiah 45 passage and compare it to the Philippians passage.
Like I said before, if you'd like to discuss any of this with me in private, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, I pray that you come to the truth, and I wish you well.
Like I said before, if you'd like to discuss any of this with me in private, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, I pray that you come to the truth, and I wish you well.
I haven't checked my private messages. Great.
Then you do not agree with what the BIBLE actually says:
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
John 8:58 (HCSB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
Revelation 13:4-8 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 17:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
I think it is time you repent, TURN BACK TO THE TRUE GOD, and confess the lies you have been deceived into believing and have been preaching.
Wrong, because "offspring of GOD" would automatically be a SECOND GOD, because GOD says reproduction always produces ONLY their "own kind". "SON OF GOD" is a TITLE, that denotes WHO the Father has given the right to inherit all that the HE has, INCLUDING HIS DEITY. It is also called the "BIRTHRIGHT" and it could be given to any man the father chose to give it to, not necessarily the traditional eldest son. If a father thought all his son's were worthless drunkards, he could even give the birthright TITLE "SON OF" to someone outside the family, even a servant; and that Servant would instantly gain the TITLE, "Son of" that Father. AND after receiving it, the possessor of that birthright TITLE, could sell it like ESAU did. AND THE NEW OWNER OF THE TITLE, became KNOWN AS "SON OF" whoever. Now be prepared to have your eyes opened, the TRUTH MIGHT BE BLINDING. HERE IS JESUS PASSING ON THE BIRTHRIGHT TITLE "SON OF JOSEPH", JUST BEFORE HE DIED.
John 19:26-27 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!"
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
That was a binding passage of the BIRTHRIGHT Title "Son of Joseph"; that gave all of the inheritance and property Jesus had that HE inherited from Joseph, to John, so that John could use it to take care of Jesus' Mother. Because HIS brothers still were lacking in Faith, JESUS passed His Birthright TITLE, "Son of Joseph" on to JOHN. What many do not realize is that in ISRAEL at that time, all property had to be in the Husband's Name, and could only be passed on to another male, even a non family member.
HENCE "SON OF GOD" does not mean "offspring of GOD".
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Let's start with the biggest Trinitarian lie of all "God is a person" or rather "God is multiple persons."
When are Trinitarians going to repent of their unscriptural, speculative heresies by which they endeavor to deceive the world?
WHere is it ever said "God is made in the image of man?"
You show me.
When are Trinitarians going to repent of their unscriptural, speculative heresies by which they endeavor to deceive the world?
WHere is it ever said "God is made in the image of man?"
You show me.
YOU ARE TRYING TO USE THE WRONG DEFINITION OF THE WORD "Person"
Merriam-Webster
Person = Individual
Individual = of, relating to, or existing as just one member or part of a larger group
Sorry, you do not get to use the Definition you want,
You have you use the definition we used when our Doctrinal Statements were written.
Night.
Re: Study up...
I reckon that there is no answer for 1 Corinthians 15:28 that says "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him"....In all reality I have a hard time with this verse, and I really wanted it explained and confirmed with other scriptures. Thanks in advance for anyone that has input confirmed by the entire Bible.
I reckon that there is no answer for 1 Corinthians 15:28 that says "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him"....In all reality I have a hard time with this verse, and I really wanted it explained and confirmed with other scriptures. Thanks in advance for anyone that has input confirmed by the entire Bible.
A
[SUP]John 8:23-30 (NASB)
23 [/SUP]And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that [SUP][a][/SUP]I am He, you will die in your sins.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “[SUP][b][/SUP]What have I been saying to you from the beginning? [SUP]26 [/SUP]I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. [SUP]28[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that [SUP][c][/SUP]I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And He who sent Me is with Me; He [SUP][d][/SUP]has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
23 [/SUP]And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that [SUP][a][/SUP]I am He, you will die in your sins.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “[SUP][b][/SUP]What have I been saying to you from the beginning? [SUP]26 [/SUP]I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. [SUP]28[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that [SUP][c][/SUP]I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And He who sent Me is with Me; He [SUP][d][/SUP]has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.