Attack of the Judaizers

[Elin]

Paul was under the law of God.

Yes, which is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), the law of love
which fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8-10).

 

[vic1980]

no, he was definitely speaking about the Law of Moses, which displays our imperfection to us, because it is perfect.
We are no longer bound by it, because we are already made perfect in the sight of God, by the shed blood of Christ. To continue serving the Law is to serve 2 masters.... be careful here, because this is not to go against the Law, but to seek the Law giver instead of the letter.

Don't hate the Law of the Lord, but do not enslave yourself to it either. Do as the Spirit guides you, which is to do good.

Remember that the Spirit of the Law is to seek good, not just abstain from bad. If you are only abstaining from bad, you are like the man who hid his talent in a hole... no productivity.

Who is hating the law of the Lord ???

The Law of God is written in your Heart , you can't take it out He put it there.

God Bless

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Paul is the greatest offense to a modern day Judaizer.
He was one of them, but now he points everything toward Christ, and everything away from the shadows.
No wonder they try their hardest to discredit him.

Paul is not offensive to me, and I believe the 4th is still relevant today. I believe that the Fall Feasts are shadows of Christ second coming yet to be fulfilled. I believe God in declaring what is holy and unholy, clean and unclean. I see Paul fighting off those that Christ had stern words to, those vipers, those hypocrites, those Pharisees, with their "oral law", adding to the word of God and putting their man made traditions and doctrines above God's commandments, making their religion of no effect. Now, if Paul were here today he would be arguing against those who have become lawless. First it was the one extreme of adding law, then came the other extreme of deleting law. There is a perfect balance between the two errors. It is Law and Grace. Law does not redeem you from the punishment of sin, only Grace does that. However, Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What you want is to cut out the WORD OF GOD and many of us know better and what the consequences of that will be.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

LOOK! This is Jesus teaching us/commanding us:

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, BLESSED are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

2Sa 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


Who is your brother? Is it not Judah? Christians are of the house of Israel, we are grafted in, and our brother is Judah.

1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

I realize many anti-semitic folks think they are in the dispensation of the church and apart from Israel. This is the basis of their prejudice.

When the WORD OF GOD is viewed from His perspective, His people, Israel, then one can see the relevance of the entire WORD OF GOD, both OT and NT. They blend perfectly together, when you take out the false idea that Christ deleted and added to the Word of God.

As long as modern day traditional mainstream Christians insist that God's Son came and changed the Torah, those "Jews" will never accept that Jesus, or that false gospel. SEE DEUTERONOMY 13 (Jews see and understand Deuteronomy 13 as well.)

 

[LT]

To those who claim that those in Christ are still under the Law of Moses:

Do you believe we must abstain from pork? Do you believe we must observe the Holy Feasts? Do you believe we must not intermarry with Gentiles?

If you say no to these, how do you justify it?

Do you claim that only these portions were abolished?

I don't understand why this topic causes arguments, when the basis of Christ's sacrifice was to remove the penalty of Law from us, and to free us from it's burden. Not for lawlessness, but for a new Law, which is the Covenant of Christ.

 

[LT]

Who is hating the law of the Lord ???

The Law of God is written in your Heart , you can't take it out He put it there.

God Bless

I was not speaking to you about hating the Law. It was just explaining that my love for the Law doesn't mean that I am under it.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Did you forget this?

1 Corinthians 9:20 To those under the law, I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

I love the NT gospel.

Me, too!! We were scattered, dispersed, without hope, divorced and doomed to hell, until Christ came and first preached He would restore the Kingdom (the kingdom had been divided and dispersed and scattered into all nations) and then He died for our sins, and made us pure, as a virgin for her Bridegroom.

 

[vic1980]

Yes, which is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), the law of love
which fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8-10).

I agree with you on that.

Psalms 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

Psalms 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

God bless

 

[weakness]

i don't see much people here preaching the grace of God, they've completely forgotten about the holy spirit and the baptism of the holy spirit, i don't people even know what the holy spirit is now, the world is so far gone, if someone can tell me... joshua we need to keep the sabbath to the saved well then you know the time is at hand and soon most of the denomination system will be doing the same thing that is when God is going to come on the scene but it will be too late for them... don't be the foolish virgins be the wise ones and receive the baptism of the holy spirit, then the spirit will bare record to you what is the correct thing[/QUOTE We do need to keep the Sabbath, but not the shadow of the one day a week Sabbath of the old testament. which was a school master while we were yet spiritual children as far as the plan of God goes.. It is the Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews ch. 4 that was left to gods people now , and will be even greatly more fulfilled at Christ return.It is so simple that we rest in God's works he has done for us, and not our own. Even in the old that is what it was all about. That it was God's work and care,provision ,that brought the children out of Egypt(world) and this same resting in God;s works led them through the wilderness, Supplying all there needs ,both spiritual ans physical.there cloths not warring out , the bread from heaven for food the meat , water out of the rock. His voice speaking ,the pillar fire leading them. He just wanted to be their father and provider, which is still the case today. But they hardened there hearts and stiffened their necks and provoked and tempted God in the wilderness and he swear that they would not enter the rest of his care ,the substantive spiritual Sabbath, of which the Sabbath of the law, and the Sabbath God proclaimed upon finishing his works was only a shadow cast by the true.It was good and meant for that time but now we have been given rest to our souls if we take his burden upon us and ,rest from the fruitless struggle to earn by our sinful works .All things are provided for us ,he is made our salvation, sanctification ,wisdom any Good thing Christ has to be made for us, and as Abraham by faith believed ,Christ's righteousness shall be imputed to us also, without work of following outside commands ,but as the love of God in our heart compels us .We become the law itself , the standard of love , the testimony of Jesus Christ,therefore a testimony of the father.All the Father wants is or confidence that he is the worker and has supplied all that we need to live a godly and peaceful life in Christ Jesus. But the law has not been abolished we are to fulfill it in the truest sense. Because of the nature of God is put in our hearts by the adoption of sons through the Holy Ghost.Did God need laws to follow ? why? because he had the love that spawned the law meant to teach, us within himself.Paul said you ought to be teacher by now but you still have need for milk, to be told what is right and wrong you have not matured enough,

 

[LT]

What I love about this topic is that: Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism fully agree on the matter of the Law and the Christian.
The only disagreements happen on the fringes, where legalism and licence have crept in. As long as we keep from these extremes, we agree in the Lord.

 

[weakness]

And it is commanded in Heb 10:25.[/QUOTE Remember they were continually in one accord at first,not just the Sabbath,And as far as gathering together, any and all time is good the more the better. Persecution scattered the church. But God use it for good spreading the good news where ever they went.

 

[weakness]

Whoa, that's a whole lot of pot calling the kettle black around here.

Judiazers? Is that another name for heretic, or is more of a subset of heresy?

The OP goes right to Paul as the standard "Christianity". Paul is not God. If following Christ makes you a Christian then what does following Paul make you?

Jesus' gospel, the first that he preached and continued was "Repent, for the kingdom has drawn near." Paul's was not.

Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." Martin Luther, the father of Protestant said "Go and sin boldly" and you are his children.

Jesus said that not one jot or iota will be gotten rid of gotten rid of, you say Paul said the law is no more. And yet Paul makes all kinds of rules that you do not follow, so what do you call a person who follows Paul's words instead of Christ's words, but only the ones they want to? I don't know.

Paul says you are assured salvation and you will not be judged by works.

Jesus says you will find out your salvation or damnation on judgment day and that you will be judged by all of what you say and do.

So pot, stop ripping on kettle and fix yourself.[/QUOTE Paul did not say the law was no more .He said we are dead to the law through Christ. He said as many as have not the law shall be Judged without law ans as many who have the law shall be judged by the law, Rom 7: 12 he says the law and the commandment is wholly just and good. he said it was not the law ,but sin appearing sin working death in us by that which is good(the law) Paul said in Christ the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us

 

[danschance]

danschance, you need to be reminded that Jesus and the New Testament writers did not eat swine's flesh and other unclean things. Neither did they reduce the Ten Commandments to nine by abrogating the Fourth.

You have no proof that the NT writers never ate unclean food. That is a broad brush assumption based on you own misplaced fantasies. Peter was told 3 times by God to kill and eat unclean animals.(Acts 10:13) Jesus said it is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of him defiles him (Matt 15:11).

Not a single sentence in all the NT states we are to observe the Sabbath--not once. The early church did not meet on sabbath, they met on the Lord's day or Sunday. No can tell me to observe the sabbath or eat clean meat only according to Col. 2:16.

They like to quote Galations, as though this is addressing the moral law. It is not. "Law," in the context of Galations is describing the Old Covenant ceremonial law (circumcision, ect), not that which defines sin. Paul, in Galations, is not telling us that sin is no longer "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Galatians (not Galations) was written to counter the deception of the Judaizers who wanted the gentile converts to have to mutilate their foreskins. Strange how you will even state circumcision is to be obeyed when Paul spoke out against it! Christians are not commanded to follow the Mosaic law, but we are commanded to obey Christs law and yes that is the moral law. (See my previous post on that)

Your definition of grace implies of something other than unmerited forgiveness, that it includes some moral compass other than the Law of the Lord.

I never stated my definition of grace. Grace is undeserved favor/forgiveness to those who believe in Jesus so that they can be saved. It is a free gift from God to those who ask for it. As I mentioned I have a post on how Christians are to obey the laws and commandments of Christ. You claim I am for lawlessness with out a shred of evidence.

 

[danschance]

Christ stated that all the law of Moses must remain, and anyone who said different was not of the kingdom of God. . Do you not believe Christ, as well as not believing God?

Yes the Mosaic laws do remain but they have been "fulfilled" thru Christ.

This means that the law of circumcision was about cutting the foreskin but now it does remain but we are circumcised in the heart. It is error to claim to be a Christian and be under the Old covenant as it was before the death of Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

LOL. It would be helpful is you added some content to your, eh, rebuttal.

If you are going to say that you listen to the instruction of Paul because he speaks for God, you are not going to be able to address any male here on religious topics in a contrasting form. This is the bible forum and Paul says that women are not to instruct males. Do you cover your head in church and remain quiet until you get home as Paul instructs? You can answer the question to my instruction of the bible, but you cannot question it.

Just curious as to where you get off telling everyone your personal interpretation of the Bible?

I am a woman and I probably know the Bible better than you and your petty legalism ever will.

So sad when a newbie comes on here and starts bossing people around.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

If you look at some of the threads on this issue, you will find there are a lot of women here who are able to answer with the Bible to your obvious arrogant misogyny.

Look up the culture and history of Ephesus and Corinth, and you may get a clue. Then again, you are so caught in your own idolatry of self and men, you probably wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the face!

 

[danschance]

Yes, which is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), the law of love
which fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8-10).

Amen. The NT does speak of the law of Christ and I am sure it is the only law we are under. It is purely a moral law and only has two rituals to it, baptism and communion.

 

[RedTent]

So basically, the differences we have is that one says that God wants us to not listen to written law, the other says that all the written law stands for it all expresses love.

All agree that God does not demand we adjust our eating, etc. to obey. Some on one side say that we can choose to do that as long as we know our choice is Godly, and not for salvation. Some say that obedience of any of that is sinful.

It all comes down to what Paul meant by the law of Moses. Some say that Paul meant that for all law, and some say Paul was talking about ceremonial law as not being required.

If everyone would believe Christ when he said law stands always, and believed that was the final answer to all arguments, we would all agree.

Mat 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. (18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (19) Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Historicist]

Nope, it is your own misunderstanding of scripture. All Christians are under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses. The three passages below very clearly state we are not under the Mosaic law.



These verses clearly state we are not under the OT laws but does that mean we are not under any law? NO! We are still under the law of Christ and Christ's commandments. The verses below are a summary of NT law of Christ.


The laws and commandments of Christ are valid and we are to obey them. This causes confusion for the Judaizers when they see law or commandment in the NT they assume it is referring to the Mosaic laws. Then they falsely conclude, "Yes, obey the sabbath. Yes, cut your foreskin. Yes, eat kosher foods, etc. Some how you must view scripture so it all harmonizes. Not just a few verses that harmonize with your world view.

danschance, scripture, old and new, proves that Jesus did not: eat swine's flesh; purchase victuals and wares on the sabbath; "putteth out his money to usury;" tell us that Dueteronomy is not profitable for intstruction in righteousness; tell us that Psalm 1 and Psalm 119 are no longer profitable for doctrine; tell us that he came to abrogate the commandments of the law; tell us that the three sins described in Ezra and Nehemiah, (i.e., sabbath desecration, interracial marriage, usury) are now okay. He did not, why do you?

 

[Historicist]

So basically, the differences we have is that one says that God wants us to not listen to written law, the other says that all the written law stands for it all expresses love.

All agree that God does not demand we adjust our eating, etc. to obey. Some on one side say that we can choose to do that as long as we know our choice is Godly, and not for salvation. Some say that obedience of any of that is sinful.

It all comes down to what Paul meant by the law of Moses. Some say that Paul meant that for all law, and some say Paul was talking about ceremonial law as not being required.

If everyone would believe Christ when he said law stands always, and believed that was the final answer to all arguments, we would all agree.

Mat 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. (18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (19) Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Right on RedTent, this was the real Jesus, not that of anti-nomianism.

 

[danschance]

danschance, scripture, old and new, proves that Jesus did not: eat swine's flesh; purchase victuals and wares on the sabbath; "putteth out his money to usury;" tell us that Dueteronomy is not profitable for intstruction in righteousness; tell us that Psalm 1 and Psalm 119 are no longer profitable for doctrine; tell us that he came to abrogate the commandments of the law; tell us that the three sins described in Ezra and Nehemiah, (i.e., sabbath desecration, interracial marriage, usury) are now okay. He did not, why do you?

That is an easy question to answer. Jesus lived under the old covenant and he obeyed it. I am under the covenant of Grace and the law of Christ. As a gentile I am not under the mosaic law.

 

[Historicist]

Amen. The NT does speak of the law of Christ and I am sure it is the only law we are under. It is purely a moral law and only has two rituals to it, baptism and communion.

"Whosoever sinneth transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4