The Israel of God
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Because of your mindset you did not understand what I said nor how it applies. Let me give you my amplified version so that it can be relevant to you. When Jesus came to his own people they rejected him as Messiah in unbelief and made him, his claims and his ministry to be irrelevant to them, to the law and to their understanding of the Messiah to come. However, those who remain in unbelief during the time of great tribulation will become very destitute, discouraged and having no hope because of the trouble that will have come upon them. But the Lord will come at the end of that time of unsurpassing tribulation in the clouds with great armies following him and every eye shall see him and those who represent the Jews who pierced him will see him, and each family will mourn in their homes as one would for their only son.
The second coming will bring great conviction to their hearts and they will receive him, believe and repent and God will deliver them and bring them a great salvation and restore them to their King and their kingdom on the earth. His first coming was irrelevant to them and they continued in unbelief, but his second coming will be their salvation for they shall see him as he is and believe and he will be their Prince of Peace. I think that what God has promised in his faithfulness to Israel is very relevant and the church will see it come to past from divine viewpoint and not human viewpoint. That should do it.
The second coming will bring great conviction to their hearts and they will receive him, believe and repent and God will deliver them and bring them a great salvation and restore them to their King and their kingdom on the earth. His first coming was irrelevant to them and they continued in unbelief, but his second coming will be their salvation for they shall see him as he is and believe and he will be their Prince of Peace. I think that what God has promised in his faithfulness to Israel is very relevant and the church will see it come to past from divine viewpoint and not human viewpoint. That should do it.
Well here is the first thing that you need to consider Sarah. Number 1: The phrase: "song of Moses" appears only one time in the entire King James Holy Bible. And that is in Revelation 15:3:
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Now let us consider and look at the Context of this passage:
Revelation 15:4-8
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Sarah, we see from the context that this time period would have to be FUTURE. You see, the phrase: "seven plagues" appears exactly two times in the King James Holy Bible (Rev. 15:6, 8).
And the phrase: "seven angels" appears only nine times in the King James Holy Bible, and every occurrence of this phrase is in the book of Revelation. Therefore Sarah, given the context of Rev. 15:3, we conclude from the testimony of Scripture that the time period for the time of Jacob's trouble is indeed in the future.
In other words,what it seems you're saying is you really have no idea what John is referring to. Go back and read Exodus and you will find that the magicians could duplicate the first three plagues,the final seven were by God's hand alone.
And you still IGNORE Deuteronomy 31 when GOD TOLD MOSES this
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.”22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
When God tells something does it mean we can go ahead and make it mean SOMETHING ELSE or does it mean EXACTLY what He told us when He explains it?
And you still IGNORE Deuteronomy 31 when GOD TOLD MOSES this
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.”22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
When God tells something does it mean we can go ahead and make it mean SOMETHING ELSE or does it mean EXACTLY what He told us when He explains it?
I am trying to show that if one takes Revelation as being literal it becomes problematic. The verse says the water is turned to blood NOT BLOODY WATER.
Revelation 16
3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
you who are and who were;
6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
You also leave OUT two medical facts about blood. The first is blood contains SALT which will dehydrate a person. And the second,even if God were to leave the salt out is that BLOOD STARTS TO CLOT after 15 minutes. So again what are they going to have to drink once the blood starts to clot,and starts going bad due to the proteins in the blood?
Revelation 16
3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
you who are and who were;
6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
You also leave OUT two medical facts about blood. The first is blood contains SALT which will dehydrate a person. And the second,even if God were to leave the salt out is that BLOOD STARTS TO CLOT after 15 minutes. So again what are they going to have to drink once the blood starts to clot,and starts going bad due to the proteins in the blood?
those who represent the Jews who pierced him
...interesting.
why would the jews living in The Jewish State today be held accountable in any way (different from the whole world - unbelief) for the piercing of Christ.
they were not there.
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11.In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
John 19:37
Jesus' Side is Pierced
36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." 37And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
Acts 2
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
Acts 10:25
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
and the Lord will come and what...save them all
because thats not what happened, nor was it prophesied to happen.
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence"
- JOSEPHUS, Jewish Wars, VI-V-3
"Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world."
- Tacitus (A.D. 115), Histories, Book 5, v. 13
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
those who pierced Him were judged; according to the Covenant Curses.
you dont seem to believe this: it was JUDGMENT. not salvation.
those who believed were saved out of it - they fled to Pella....they were Jewish Christians.
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
Matthew 16:28
Amen, I say to you, that there are men who are standing here who will not taste death until they will see The Son of Man who comes with his Kingdom.”
you dont understand there was a very real TRANSFER made...from earthly to heavenly (where God always was)
Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
the Bible says nothing like that.
it says His Kingdom is not of this world.
it says those who reject Him are condemned.
you theory that ALL Israel living in the Jewish State:
is error, since
1) they dont represent anything other than individuals is desperate need of being transferred to the Kingdom of the Dear Son TODAY, since today is the the day of salvation
2) your interpretation of ALL Israel in Romans is faulty and drives all your other errors - it`s either all as in every single one ever - or it means something else. that something else, Paul explains quite clearly.
ALL of them
or did the remnant believe exactly as Paul said and exactly as the prophets foretold.
and THEN: Jerusalem was demolished, and the Old Covenant system; and everything about it became obsolete.
there is One Covenant, people enter eternity through it (Christ) or they dont.
making up stories about God having unfinished business is idolatry; taking His Name in vain; and not loving Him by keeping His words.
you would do well to stop making up and believing stories.
He is bringing salvation only to those who know Him and are waiting for Him.
He is bringing eternal Judgment for His enemies who do not acknowledge Him.
where does the Bible say Jesus returns to save antichrists
1 John 2
Beware of Antichrists
21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also
Luke 16
27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
2 Corinthians 3
The Glory of the New Covenant
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:13
We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.
Romans 11:23
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
John 6
Jesus the Bread of Life
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Acts 13:40
Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
...interesting.why would the jews living in The Jewish State today be held accountable in any way (different from the whole world - unbelief) for the piercing of Christ.
they were not there.
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11.In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
John 19:37
Jesus' Side is Pierced
36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." 37And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
Acts 2
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
Acts 10:25
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
and the Lord will come and what...save them all
because thats not what happened, nor was it prophesied to happen.
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence"
- JOSEPHUS, Jewish Wars, VI-V-3
"Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world."
- Tacitus (A.D. 115), Histories, Book 5, v. 13
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
those who pierced Him were judged; according to the Covenant Curses.
you dont seem to believe this: it was JUDGMENT. not salvation.
those who believed were saved out of it - they fled to Pella....they were Jewish Christians.
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
Matthew 16:28
Amen, I say to you, that there are men who are standing here who will not taste death until they will see The Son of Man who comes with his Kingdom.”
you dont understand there was a very real TRANSFER made...from earthly to heavenly (where God always was)
Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
the Bible says nothing like that.
it says His Kingdom is not of this world.
it says those who reject Him are condemned.
you theory that ALL Israel living in the Jewish State:
is error, since
1) they dont represent anything other than individuals is desperate need of being transferred to the Kingdom of the Dear Son TODAY, since today is the the day of salvation
2) your interpretation of ALL Israel in Romans is faulty and drives all your other errors - it`s either all as in every single one ever - or it means something else. that something else, Paul explains quite clearly.
ALL of them
or did the remnant believe exactly as Paul said and exactly as the prophets foretold.
and THEN: Jerusalem was demolished, and the Old Covenant system; and everything about it became obsolete.
there is One Covenant, people enter eternity through it (Christ) or they dont.
making up stories about God having unfinished business is idolatry; taking His Name in vain; and not loving Him by keeping His words.
you would do well to stop making up and believing stories.
He is bringing salvation only to those who know Him and are waiting for Him.
He is bringing eternal Judgment for His enemies who do not acknowledge Him.
where does the Bible say Jesus returns to save antichrists
1 John 2
Beware of Antichrists
21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also
Luke 16
27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
2 Corinthians 3
The Glory of the New Covenant
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:13
We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.
Romans 11:23
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
John 6
Jesus the Bread of Life
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Acts 13:40
Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
Last edited:
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem
21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
B
those who represent the Jews who pierced him...interesting.
why would the jews living in The Jewish State today be held accountable in any way (different from the whole world - unbelief) for the piercing of Christ, they were not there.What is this suppose to mean? Don't you want it to mean those Jews and Gentiles (Romans) who were actually at the cross who were part of the literal piercing of Christ along with those who saw this happen with their own eyes? Isn't this why you bring up John 19:37, there can be no other reason?
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11.In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
John 19:37
Jesus' Side is Pierced
36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." 37And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
...interesting.why would the jews living in The Jewish State today be held accountable in any way (different from the whole world - unbelief) for the piercing of Christ, they were not there.What is this suppose to mean? Don't you want it to mean those Jews and Gentiles (Romans) who were actually at the cross who were part of the literal piercing of Christ along with those who saw this happen with their own eyes? Isn't this why you bring up John 19:37, there can be no other reason?
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11.In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
John 19:37
Jesus' Side is Pierced
36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." 37And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; (this is the second advent not the first) and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Who are these who will see him who are specified as 'they also which pierced him' ? You want us to believe that these ARE NOT present day Jews who are living at the time of the second advent because they could not be held responsible. Rev 1:7 is more similar to Zech 12:10 then John 19:37 is. I will say this... John 19:37 was a reference to Zech 12:10 that was speaking of the time of the second advent that we see in Rev 1:7. John 9:36 speaks of the cross but verse 37 speaks of the what takes place when Christ comes back and every eye shall see him in Rev 1:7.
You can't be serious Brad!? Saying the Jews of today, who still try to call themselves 'God's Chosen People', are not responsible for the death of Jesus on the Cross. As their forefathers were, being cut off from Israel and cast out of the kingdom where their descendants are until this very day. Whom, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached to more than any other people in the history of the world.
Therefore, in your Gnostic Gap theory, these modern day Jews are going to be saved in some other way than Christ and Him Crucified, the Blood of God's Lamb?! Who was Crucified before the foundation of the world! The reason the Jews are held responsible to this very day, by God; is because, they continue to proclaim they are 'God's Chosen People'; (while for those Jews who do not, they, are not held under this curse.)
While you and others like you bolster their unbelief, by telling them that they can reject the Gospel of Jesus; because they as Jews, are all going to be saved in some other manner. And O by the way, these are the last days again, now for 300 years, correct?!
This is absolute madness, and the poison of Dispensationalism!
The Church, is New Covenant Israel, 'the Israel of God', whom Paul was an Apostle of in the Early Church!
Which rests upon the foundation of the faithful of the Old Way, in Adam!
Of which, these modern day Jews; are not apart of those faithful in the Old Way, which ended with Jesus.
This is why the Gospel is preached to the Jews just like any other people, there is no other special salvation.
God is still for a little longer, holding out His Olive Branch, Jesus Crucified, to them!
many blessings
Therefore, in your Gnostic Gap theory, these modern day Jews are going to be saved in some other way than Christ and Him Crucified, the Blood of God's Lamb?! Who was Crucified before the foundation of the world! The reason the Jews are held responsible to this very day, by God; is because, they continue to proclaim they are 'God's Chosen People'; (while for those Jews who do not, they, are not held under this curse.)
While you and others like you bolster their unbelief, by telling them that they can reject the Gospel of Jesus; because they as Jews, are all going to be saved in some other manner. And O by the way, these are the last days again, now for 300 years, correct?!
This is absolute madness, and the poison of Dispensationalism!
The Church, is New Covenant Israel, 'the Israel of God', whom Paul was an Apostle of in the Early Church!
Which rests upon the foundation of the faithful of the Old Way, in Adam!
Of which, these modern day Jews; are not apart of those faithful in the Old Way, which ended with Jesus.
This is why the Gospel is preached to the Jews just like any other people, there is no other special salvation.
God is still for a little longer, holding out His Olive Branch, Jesus Crucified, to them!
many blessings
It is not Dispensationalism that is a poison, it is various forms of making too many distinctions in the Bible that is a poison. For one to say that Jews will be saved because they are blood and not because they also will believe is a form of Ultradispensationalism, same with saying that salvation will somehow be by works in the future, not salvation by grace through faith. This is taking an extreme form of seeing distinction in Scripture.
There are also extreme forms of Covenant theology seeing continuity. How about those who believe we should obey all the OT Law today? Or saying that everyone is saved by grace without faith, a form of universalism? Or those who believe that not only should infants be baptized, they should also take the Communion since it is a means of God's grace? Or even Preterism, which already sees Christ as having come, no Second coming? All these are examples of taking continuity too far.
It is not the evil of Covenant theology which sees too much continuity any more than the evil of Dispensationalism which sees too much distinction. There is continuity and discontinuity in Scripture, it is behoven upon us to see the difference and not overemphasize one or the other.
There are also extreme forms of Covenant theology seeing continuity. How about those who believe we should obey all the OT Law today? Or saying that everyone is saved by grace without faith, a form of universalism? Or those who believe that not only should infants be baptized, they should also take the Communion since it is a means of God's grace? Or even Preterism, which already sees Christ as having come, no Second coming? All these are examples of taking continuity too far.
It is not the evil of Covenant theology which sees too much continuity any more than the evil of Dispensationalism which sees too much distinction. There is continuity and discontinuity in Scripture, it is behoven upon us to see the difference and not overemphasize one or the other.
So too Covenant Theology's methodology is to see similarity rather than contrast. Covenant Theology puts the Old and New Covenants into one Covenant of Grace, a theological Covenant which sees similarity between the greatest distinction the Bible makes, that of the Old Testament and New, before Christ came and after.
Dispensationalism's methodology is to try to interpret Scripture as having the real meaning that was intended by the original authors to the original audience. This by definition makes distinctions, biblical ones. We are all in agreement that there are Biblical distinctions, it is just a question of how far we press them. To me it's not biblical to speak of a Covenant of grace that encompasses Old and New Testaments. Neither is it biblical to not see how the same God who gave the Law also gave Christ.
Seeing distinctions in Scripture is not poison, everyone does it. Not pressing a distinction far enough or pressing it too far is what is the poison.
Dispensationalism's methodology is to try to interpret Scripture as having the real meaning that was intended by the original authors to the original audience. This by definition makes distinctions, biblical ones. We are all in agreement that there are Biblical distinctions, it is just a question of how far we press them. To me it's not biblical to speak of a Covenant of grace that encompasses Old and New Testaments. Neither is it biblical to not see how the same God who gave the Law also gave Christ.
Seeing distinctions in Scripture is not poison, everyone does it. Not pressing a distinction far enough or pressing it too far is what is the poison.
But that's exactly the point. The greatest Scriptural distinction we have is between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. And yet we should lump them into the same time period and call it the Covenant of Grace? There is warrant for seeing that we are all saved by faith just as Abraham was, but glossing over theological distinctions that range from Adam to Cain to Noah to Abraham to Jesus and putting them all into one really seems to overemphasize continuity at the expense of real meaning. We are always saved by faith, Noah had faith so he built an ark, Abe believed God would give Him children, the Israelites believed so they followed the law, we believe so we follow Christ. There are differences.
20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace abounds in the present time because of Jesus. The sins were passed over until Christ came, they weren't covered by grace until the efficacious death of Christ.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Again, the greatest distinction is between the promise made and the promise fulfilled in Christ. Dispensationalism understands biblical distinctions. It's at the heart of Biblical interpretation, hermeneutics.
Don't ridicule biblical distinctions with continuity nonsense. (I speak as Paul did, in human terms.)
20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace abounds in the present time because of Jesus. The sins were passed over until Christ came, they weren't covered by grace until the efficacious death of Christ.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Again, the greatest distinction is between the promise made and the promise fulfilled in Christ. Dispensationalism understands biblical distinctions. It's at the heart of Biblical interpretation, hermeneutics.
Don't ridicule biblical distinctions with continuity nonsense. (I speak as Paul did, in human terms.)
What are you saying?
Okay, I don't do "isms," "ists" and "theologies."
I do Bible.
It's been a covenant of grace since Abraham.
What other covenant prior to that is there but Noah?
And the Sinaitic Covenant was temporarily added (Ro 5:20; Gal 3:19) to the covenant of grace,
not to give salvation, but to reveal sin and the coming salvation in shadows, patterns and copies.
The New Covenant replaces the Sinaitic Covenant and fulfills the Abrahamic covenants.
I have no comment regarding covenant prior to Abraham, nor do I find any in the NT, right?
Okay, I don't do "isms," "ists" and "theologies."
I do Bible.
It's been a covenant of grace since Abraham.
What other covenant prior to that is there but Noah?
And the Sinaitic Covenant was temporarily added (Ro 5:20; Gal 3:19) to the covenant of grace,
not to give salvation, but to reveal sin and the coming salvation in shadows, patterns and copies.
The New Covenant replaces the Sinaitic Covenant and fulfills the Abrahamic covenants.
I have no comment regarding covenant prior to Abraham, nor do I find any in the NT, right?
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You guys are so funny, Konroh; you crack me up! You just ramble all over the place wanting to make a point that is moot!
Dispensationalism is the Devil's brew! It is a poison that uses false prophecy to create a gospel that doesn't exist to replace the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are millions of Christians who love the Lord, who have drank it and are now trapped in it's woes! It can be traced back to it's beginning, where a man and his cult wanted to be someone special, and make Biblical Prophecy what they wanted it to be...The Plymouth Brethren and John Darby in the UK; then it's spread in the US in a Revival in the mid to late 1800s. Feel free to Google dispensationalism, and you can read for 1 to 2 days without stopping.
This is not a Thread about grace theology, or Covenant Theology, it's about The Israel of God!
And it seems most of the time, the only people on here that it scares, is Dispensationalist!
Who continually point to a Agnostic Gap that keeps widening and never stops; and a last days promise by your 21st Century Prophets, of a 7 yr. end of the world that doesn't exist! Because it was made up and then made worse, by the present day machines of Dispensationalist writers. ie ... left behind...!!! etc...
My point to Brad, was the special Salvation to the Jews of this Gnostic Gap and the 7 yr end of the world!
It doesn't exist! It was made up and it is the glue of this toxic brew called Dispensationalism.
Do a little research, this is what your defending! People in here saying, 'we'll have a supernatural experience with God and then just feel our way to heaven'? And in the end, if that's what people want, have to it!
But Dispensationalism, was made by man and has now crept into almost all of the church;
here's an interesting point for you; most all the Christian Cults teach the same thing.
Who was the Israel of God who Paul spoke of? Jesus!!! The Head Apostle
It was New Covenant Israel, whom Paul was a chief Apostle of!
Which was made up of the faithful of that last generation of Old Covenant Israel.
may you be blessed
Dispensationalism is the Devil's brew! It is a poison that uses false prophecy to create a gospel that doesn't exist to replace the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are millions of Christians who love the Lord, who have drank it and are now trapped in it's woes! It can be traced back to it's beginning, where a man and his cult wanted to be someone special, and make Biblical Prophecy what they wanted it to be...The Plymouth Brethren and John Darby in the UK; then it's spread in the US in a Revival in the mid to late 1800s. Feel free to Google dispensationalism, and you can read for 1 to 2 days without stopping.
This is not a Thread about grace theology, or Covenant Theology, it's about The Israel of God!
And it seems most of the time, the only people on here that it scares, is Dispensationalist!
Who continually point to a Agnostic Gap that keeps widening and never stops; and a last days promise by your 21st Century Prophets, of a 7 yr. end of the world that doesn't exist! Because it was made up and then made worse, by the present day machines of Dispensationalist writers. ie ... left behind...!!! etc...
My point to Brad, was the special Salvation to the Jews of this Gnostic Gap and the 7 yr end of the world!
It doesn't exist! It was made up and it is the glue of this toxic brew called Dispensationalism.
Do a little research, this is what your defending! People in here saying, 'we'll have a supernatural experience with God and then just feel our way to heaven'? And in the end, if that's what people want, have to it!
But Dispensationalism, was made by man and has now crept into almost all of the church;
here's an interesting point for you; most all the Christian Cults teach the same thing.
Who was the Israel of God who Paul spoke of? Jesus!!! The Head Apostle
It was New Covenant Israel, whom Paul was a chief Apostle of!
Which was made up of the faithful of that last generation of Old Covenant Israel.
may you be blessed
Zone, beware of dispensationalism, a chain of interpretations that was unknown to the early church and Protestant Reformers. Evangelical greats as recent as Charles H. Spurgeon did not use the dispensationalist-futurist method.
Dispensationalism would have us identify twelve tribed Israel by its mantra, "Israel rejected Jesus." That this is a lie is proved by many verses in Acts, example: "Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe" (Acts 21:20). And then there is Hebrews. Written, obviously, to Hebrew Israelites it clearly describes them in a Christian New Covenant context. Chapters 8-10, especially, attest to this. James also, written "...to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1) describes these Israelites in a Christian New Covenant context. Hebrews, James and the general epistles refute the lie that Israel rejected Jesus and the New Covenant, that the church therefore is found apart from Israel.
Scripture clearly tells us that the first century church was comprised of those "thousands of Jews," and thousands more of non-Jew Diaspora Israelites, those called "Gentiles" in the New Testament epistles. The religious establishment does not want us to know this.
Historicist
Dispensationalism would have us identify twelve tribed Israel by its mantra, "Israel rejected Jesus." That this is a lie is proved by many verses in Acts, example: "Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe" (Acts 21:20). And then there is Hebrews. Written, obviously, to Hebrew Israelites it clearly describes them in a Christian New Covenant context. Chapters 8-10, especially, attest to this. James also, written "...to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1) describes these Israelites in a Christian New Covenant context. Hebrews, James and the general epistles refute the lie that Israel rejected Jesus and the New Covenant, that the church therefore is found apart from Israel.
Scripture clearly tells us that the first century church was comprised of those "thousands of Jews," and thousands more of non-Jew Diaspora Israelites, those called "Gentiles" in the New Testament epistles. The religious establishment does not want us to know this.
Historicist
Check your translations maybe use more than one and compare ALL notes. Maybe try learning hebrew too. But I have a objection to your english reference of Zecharia 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
It is somewhat different in Hebrew and quite frankly a totally different meaning. I understand it as the nations having pierced Israel. And they will one day see what they have done to Israel and mourn and weep over him.
ושפכתי על-בית דויד ועל | יושב ירושל ם רוח חן ותחנונים והביטו אלי את אשר-דקרו וספדו עליו כמספד על-היחיד והמר עליו כהמר על-הבכור:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look towards me, regarding those whom the nations have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and shall be in bitterness over him, as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
It is somewhat different in Hebrew and quite frankly a totally different meaning. I understand it as the nations having pierced Israel. And they will one day see what they have done to Israel and mourn and weep over him.
ושפכתי על-בית דויד ועל | יושב ירושל ם רוח חן ותחנונים והביטו אלי את אשר-דקרו וספדו עליו כמספד על-היחיד והמר עליו כהמר על-הבכור:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look towards me, regarding those whom the nations have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and shall be in bitterness over him, as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.