Attack of the Judaizers

[john832]

Your issue is with the writer of Hebrews and with Paul, not with me.

Take it up with them.

As far as issue, my issue is with you for twisting and misrepresenting scripture by lifting it out of context and misapplying it.

 

[danschance]

Nope. Jesus never taught the NT believer to obey the sabbath, not even once as a hint. Jesus was a Jew and attend sabbath but never once are the NT believers ever told to obey the sabbath.

Mark 6:5 And He said to them The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord of sabbath. He is our sabbath rest. By the way, the verse you have posted, Jesus was under the old testament up until His death. So in the Gospels we see Christ observing the sabbath as He was a Jew. NT believers are never told to observe the sabbath. The Mosaic laws were given to the Israelites (Jews?). NT believers are under the law of Christ which is a ratification of OT moral laws.

 

[Elin]

God's plan was to temporarily add (Ro 5:20; Gal 4:9) the Sinaitic Covenant and the Mosaic law on
which it was based, with its unavoidable and, therefore, inseparable curse (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10, 13),
to the Abrahmaic Covenant.

God's plan was to make the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13) and
to set aside the Mosaic law with its curse (Heb 7:18-19)
at the inauguration of the New Covenant (Lk 22:20) in the poured-out blood of Christ Jesus.

God's plan was to replace the Mosaic law and its necessary curse with
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39), which has no curse (a huge difference between the two, Ro 8:1)
and which fulfills (accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:10).

Those in Christ are under Christ's law, which has no curse for imperfect obedience,
and are not under the set-aside Mosaic law with its curse.

The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ for all those in Christ,
for he is our Sabbath; i.e, our rest from our own work (to save)
as God rested from his own work (to create). (Heb 4:9-10)

However, those in Christ do assemble together (Heb 10:25)
for prayer, worship, fellowship, instruction and participation in the Lord's Supper,
they do obey the law of Christ, which fulfills (accomplishes) the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8),
and they do set themselves apart from sin and to God.

Nothing is lost in the Christian life with setting aside of the Mosaic law with its curse,
and replacing it with the law of Christ which has no curse.

I saw cut and paste of various bible verses out of context to support one's doctrine.
1st century believers didn't have the cut and paste buttons.
They didn't even have the last 27 books.

That explains a lot. . .I don't do cut and paste.

Non responsive. . .addresses nothing.

 

[chubbena]

Not gentile bellievers...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Carnal unbelievers is the correct word here.

Lord have mercy!

 

[john832]

That explains a lot. . .I don't do cut and paste.

Especially the scripture, you post opinion.

 

[just-me]

arguments are going so fast that they are being missed by others who are arguing with each other. LOL No learning happening here.

 

[danschance]

Wrong scriptural reference: If you err on scripture reference with no attempt at correction how can you be reliable to teach from the scriptures?

No one here is a teacher. I have never claimed to be a teacher either. The admin team also discourages anyone from setting themselves up as a teacher on this site for some good reasons. We all are here to discuss scripture.

The scripture was being used by someone else in a feeble attempt to "prove" Christians must obey sabbath as the Jews do.

 

[Elin]

Elin, Jesus, in Mark 7:19 is not telling us it is now okay to eat donkeys, pigs, chimpanzees, gorillas, snakes, cats, spiders, catfish and dogs, etc. Do you really think Jesus would eat gorilla, or pig? Go back to verse 8 and learn that 7:19, in context, is condemning of ceremonial washings invented by the Pharisses. This is why there is not one example in scripture of Jesus or the Bible writers eating these unclean things.

Mk 7:19 could not be clearer:

"(In saying this, Jesus declared all food 'clean.')" no matter your attempt to wriggle around it.

Take it up with Mark.

 

[john832]

Mk 7:19 could not be clearer:

"(In saying this, Jesus declared all food 'clean.')" no matter your attempt to alter it.

Take it up with Mark.

All food? How about nighshade mushrooms? Fugu?

 

[danschance]

Why do the 10 Commandments have to be a Mosaic law? God asked Cain where his brother Abel was? God put a mark on Cain because he killed his brother - The law not to kill was in place before Moses. I venture a guess that the law of God - 10 Commandments will stand in heaven after the return of Jesus - Why? Because God's law is a law of love and we keep it not because it saves us but because we honor our Father love and want to obey Him.

All humans on the planet have the moral laws of God written on their hearts. Moral laws have always been in effect and always will. The sabbath is not a moral law, it is ceremonial and has only been given to the Jews. Christians are under the laws of Christ, which are a ratification of the moral laws given to Moses and all of humanity.

More on what is the law of Christ: What is the law of Christ?

 

[Elin]

Example:
I threw a buffet party at home. When guests arrived I said "foods are in the kitchen, eat all you want". A few didn't know better and went for the garbage can because it looked like a nice container. I had to stop them by posting a note there saying "whatever in there are unclean and detestable". Some late comers couldn't read, they went for the garbage can and thus missed out the food on the island. Doesn't really matter to me. At the end they all thanked me.

Noah knew what He meant. You probably need a note.

Please provide a Biblical basis for the example illustrating your personal opinion.

 

[JaumeJ]

I don't think you have had much experience with humanity to make that declaration. Where do you read, or where did you learn all humans have the moral laws on their hearts? This idea is curious at best.

All humans on the planet have the moral laws of God written on their hearts. Moral laws have always been in effect and always will. The sabbath is not a moral law, it is ceremonial and has only been given to the Jews. Christians are under the laws of Christ, which are a ratification of the moral laws given to Moses and all of humanity.

More on what is the law of Christ: What is the law of Christ?

 

[john832]

Mk 7:19 could not be clearer:

"(In saying this, Jesus declared all food 'clean.')" no matter your attempt to wriggle around it.

Take it up with Mark.

And again, lifted out of context and twisted. What are we talking about here?

Mar 7:1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.

Two things to note..

1) it was bread and not meat, from Thayer's...

G740
ἄρτος
artos
Thayer Definition:
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one’s thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord’s Table
2) food of any kind
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G142
Citing in TDNT: 1:477, 80

2) The disciples were condemned for eating with unwashed hands.

Aw but there is more...

Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"

The rule being referenced here is a tradition of the elders.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
Mar 7:7 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.'
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
Mar 7:9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

The problem here is not God's Law of clean and unclean, it is the commandments of men.

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"—' (that is, a gift to God),
Mar 7:12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,
Mar 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

What was the problem? Making the Word of God of none effect by their traditions which they have handed down.

Mar 7:15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
Mar 7:16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"

So, if you eat with unwashed hands and get some dirt in your mouth, it will not spiritually defile you, the foul and filthy things that come out of your mouth will defile you.

Mar 7:17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"

Now it is obvious that he is saying here that if something dirty enters your mouth, that it passes through and is eliminated but it does not defile you spiritually.

This is not teaching about God's Law of clean and unclean, it is teaching about the traditions of men replacing the Law of God.

Like misrepresenting this passage to be speaking of doing away with the Law of clean and unclean by the traditions of men.

 

[JaumeJ]

Forget this post, it is off OP.....................

I don't think you have had much experience with humanity to make that declaration. Where do you read, or where did you learn all humans have the moral laws on their hearts? This idea is curious at best.

 

[danschance]

How can the One who gave the law through a contract that was delivered through Moses be under that law?. He is over that law because He is the law.

And the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel. As long as they were a sovereign nation under God with protected borders they were obligated to keep the contract (Sabbath). But when that nation dissolved through conquest the people as individuals were no longer obligated to the contract because it was a national contract (covenant). It applied to the sovereign nation of Israel not to individual Israelites (Jews) under the authority of gentile nations.

Christ's death fulfilled the ceremonial laws of Moses. As an example of what this means The Mosiac law of circumcision of the foreskin has been changed to circumcision of the Heart. The temple in Jerusalem was changed to our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and so on. I have posted on this several times before on this thread. Here is a link that explains this in greater detail. What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

The Mosiac laws were never meant to be permanent and the mosaic ceremonial laws have no hold on NT Christians.

16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Col. 2

 

[john832]

Forget this post, it is off OP.....................

Your post was right on. It seems that anyone that stands up for the Law of God is denigrated for being a Judaizer.

 

[danschance]

So certain parts of the NT are OT so where do you draw the line?

OT ceremonial laws have been fulfilled by Christ. The NT believer is under the law of Christ which essentially is the ratification of OT moral laws. That is where the line is.

 

[john832]

OT ceremonial laws have been fulfilled by Christ. The NT believer is under the law of Christ which essentially is the ratification of OT moral laws. That is where the line is.

Can you produce some scripture that delineates the Old Testament ceremonial Laws?

 

[Brother_Don]

some of these threads are great bible studies, bringing and keeping things in remembrance. Although they usually have 2 or more opinions, i can usually agree with one of them, and some day those of us that really want to know our Lord Christ Jesus, will be in agreement with Him. i don't have nothing else to add to thread, all that needs to be said has been said, all scripture has been shown. SALUTE.

 

[danschance]

You say "The sabbath was given to the jews and it was never given to gentiles." Define gentiles? Define Jews?

The Bible says (not I) that the Sabbath was given before the Ten Commandments were given. It was given to all 12 tribes of Israelites (Not to just the tribe of Judah) and those who were strangers and sojourners from Egypt with them. Those non-Israelites were "Gentiles".

Your statement is offensive because it does not reflect truth. You made that up and therefore are adding to the word of God.

I am using the term jew to mean Hebrews, Israelites and even modern jews. In Modern times that is how this term is used.
The dictionary defines Jew as:

a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

Gentiles are everyone else. The dictionary defines them as:

1. Not Jewish