Christians and military service

[tucksma]

For anyone to say Christians should be a pacifist is ignoring over half the bible. Jesus is God. same God that commanded the Israelites to go to war.
In Psalm 144:1 David says
"Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:"

Is God not also the same yesterday, today and forever or did He just change his mind on that?

In Matthew 8 Jesus talked with the centurion(soldier). Not ONCE did he denouce his career. Not once did he tell soldier to get out of the military. As a matter of fact Jesus praised him for his faith. Verse 10 Jesus said the centurion had more faith than anyone he had met.

So for you to say Jesus wants us to be a pacifist is completely ignoring important scriptures.

Ecc 3 also tells is there is a season for everything under Heaven. Including a time to kill, and a time for war.

You also mention military leaders. Well, normally the military leader is the leader of the country. Like
President Obama is commander and chief. If you question your countries authority are you going to just leave the country and look for another leader? I don't know many people that can just pack up and leave like that. Or are you going to obey his potential ungodly demands?

The difference is God commanded it. A leader commands the military, not God. Also with the concept of WW2 "protecting" does the bible say it is okay to kill in self defense? I could be wrong here. I see some in the law where it says its okay to kill a thief, but I'm talking about self defense. Jesus says if you are struck on the cheek, turn the other. Killing is killing. Unless commanded by God it is NEVER okay.

 

[tucksma]

Ecclesiastes 3 is a verse that I hold to. Notice that it says there's a time to kill and there's also a time for war.
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:[SUP]2 [/SUP] a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

So do you get to pick that time to kill? Does your military leader? NO. God does. That's why God can control armies and kill and it is OKAY, but if you do, or your leader does, then you are relying on your own understanding of this section, not Gods.

 

[tucksma]

Where in the bible does it say to surrender your family and friends in the event of a deadly attack? Tell me.


Not once did Jesus condemn a soldier yet you and others do. He even told a parable about a king going to war.
God doesn't like bloodshed. That's obvious. In a fallen world it will happen. God knows this. He also knows Christians have to live in this fallen world and we are commanded to take care of each other. Time will come when we may have to fight to protect each other as well. Wars are a result of sin. How can you fight sin when you do nothing, and let the evil take over and kill those you love?
God doesn't think fondly of the cowardly either.

"thou shalt not kill" ok now find me a verse where it says its okay to kill to protect your family. Just cause God understands why we sin, doesn't make it okay. If your family is saved, then why worry about them dieing?

 

[tucksma]

You are correct in stating God did not use physical violence while walking on Earth, because His mission was to redeem not condemn. Also Jesus is our example of Christian living.

You'll read in the OT that God is a God of War. And you'll read in both the OT and NT that God does not change. That does not mean we pick up our weapons and avenge ourselves. That's God's job, hopefully we agree on that. But how does God avenge His people? How does God inflict Justice to one nation? It is by whom God has put into authority and by whom what nation God choices to carry out His justice and punishment. It's all over the OT, Cobus, I am surprised you don't see it, and Romans 13 speaks of this very thing.

Jesus did not pick up a weapon to kill the body during His sojourn here on Earth, but he certainly described what he's going to do if nations/tribes/people don't repent.

Matthew 21:33-46
The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers

33“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit.35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?[j]

43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

God used the Roman empire to fulfill this Cobus.

Matthew 22

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattleare killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Who do you think the king is here Cobus?

Why don't you go walk in the heart and nations of all the Islamic radicals Cobus, if your theory is correct you could bring peace to the world. The Devil would have flee from you and you could make peace and heal the nations.

God is a God of war. But your leader of your military is not God and the wars that you (or your military) are put in is not Godly, God didn't tell your leader to attack. God can fight in wars and it not be sinful because whatever God does is automaticallly righteousness! We cannot though.

 

[Rockbysea]

2 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

One should never distort this scripture. A soldier who fears God and believes in Christ Jesus is more likely to be brave under fire even if the cause is wrong. He will be more interested in saving lives rather than killing. The camaraderie with his comrades is more important than anything else when all is said and done. A Christian military man can be the best witness for Christ Jesus under fire. Have a nice day.

Those scriptures you used have nothing to do with obligating or sanctioning those in Christ to join a military of any nation of this world nor do those scriptures have anything to do with followers of Christ taking up arms to go fight in this world’s battles. You’ve just provided a clear example of how to “distort... scripture.”

 

[Elizabeth619]

"thou shalt not kill" ok now find me a verse where it says its okay to kill to protect your family. Just cause God understands why we sin, doesn't make it okay. If your family is saved, then why worry about them dieing?

Understand the meaning to "kill". It is referring to premeditated killing, murder. This was a law found in the OT yet you see David, Abraham, Moses, etc killing in wars at the command of the Lord. If God allowed killing under certain circumstances then why would he say "thou shall not kill"? He would be contradicting himself. God doesn't contradict. So obviously "killing" is justified under certain circumstances. If it wasn't then God broke his own commandment. I also posted several scriptures earlier about my argument. We are commanded by God to take care of each other. That means protect them. Not deliver them to slaughter.

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked
.
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Looks to me by your words you ignorantly promote the killing of Christians by feeling one should do nothing about it. How is that righteous?


Now tell me. Where in the bible does it say to surrender your family in the event of a deadly attack?​

 

[Elizabeth619]

God is a God of war. But your leader of your military is not God and the wars that you (or your military) are put in is not Godly, God didn't tell your leader to attack. God can fight in wars and it not be sinful because whatever God does is automaticallly righteousness! We cannot though.

Romans 13:1-7

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience

 

[Elizabeth619]

The difference is God commanded it. A leader commands the military, not God. Also with the concept of WW2 "protecting" does the bible say it is okay to kill in self defense? I could be wrong here. I see some in the law where it says its okay to kill a thief, but I'm talking about self defense. Jesus says if you are struck on the cheek, turn the other. Killing is killing. Unless commanded by God it is NEVER okay.

We are told to obey authority. God ordained human authority.

I see some in the law where it says its okay to kill a thief, but I'm talking about self defense

Why would one kill a thief if it wasn't in self defense? What would be the justification?

"Turning the other cheek" is referring to civil matters.
"But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

It says if someone slaps you to turn the other cheek. If you slap me I am not going to shoot your head off. If you insult me I am not to insult you back. It means not to take revenge out on someone. Don't retaliate. This is not referring to breaking the law or military matters.

 

[Elizabeth619]

The difference is these people were told by God to kill where the military is told by a leader of Man.

And God ordained human authority
Read Romans 13

 

[Kerry]

What about Joshua? Modern day Generals still study his warfare.

 

[Elizabeth619]

SO with the first verse, when we were under the law this was okay because God said to. That's different, we aren't under the law anymore.

Then why do you keep saying "thou shall not kill" as your argument if the law is null and void?

With the second, it never says it is okay to kill, just to guard. Also taken in context, it is clear it is talking about spiritual armor and a spiritual place.

Why would we need to guard anything? According to you we shouldn't. Evidently we aren't to protect anything because God loves a coward.

With the third, does the ruler of a country decide who is a wrongdoer? According to the military's stance he does. I though it was God.

Romans 13

 

[Elizabeth619]

What about Joshua? Modern day Generals still study his warfare.

I love your signature.

 

[Kerry]

Thou shall not kill, God killed Aaron's two sons, God killed Reubens two sons, God killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, God killed Ananias a Saphira

 

[Elizabeth619]

Thou shall not kill, God killed Aaron's two sons, God killed Reubens two sons, God killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, God killed Ananias a Saphira

Correct, and we should never question what God does or why He does it(and I know that isn't what you are doing).
One thing that I am not understanding here is how one person is saying "we aren't under the law" but has repeatedly posted "thou shall not kill". Isn't that one of the laws "we are not under?"

Why is "You shall not murder" in the Ten Commandments?
nswer:Simply stated, the sixth of the Ten Commandments forbids the unjustified taking of a human life. However, the commandment itself has a couple of interesting elements that bear mentioning. First and foremost, different Bible translations give the appearance of different meanings, and there is potential for misunderstanding the actual meaning of the verse. Second, man was never created for the act of murdering another, and there needs to be an explanation for such a violent and final act towards another human being. Third, because of the translational challenge, we need to understand the difference between “murder” and “killing.” And last but not least, how does God view murder? To God, murder is not just physical in nature but also the condition of one’s heart towards another.

There are two different Hebrew words (ratsakh, mut) and two Greek words (phoneuo, apokteino) for “murder” and “killing.” One means “to put to death,” and the other means “to murder.” The latter one is the one prohibited by the Ten Commandments, not the former. In fact,ratsakhhas a broader definition than the English word “murder.”Ratsakhalso covers deaths due to carelessness or neglect but is never used when describing killing during wartime. That is why most modern translations render the sixth commandment “You shall not murder” rather than “You shall not kill.” However, a very large issue can arise depending on which translation one studies. The ever-popular King James Version renders the verse as “Thou shalt not kill,” therefore opening the door to misinterpreting the verse altogether. If the intended meaning of “Thou shalt not kill” was just that—no killing—it would render all of the God-endorsed bloodletting done by the nation of Israel a violation of God’s own commandment (Deuteronomy 20). But God does not break His own commandments, so, clearly, the verse does not call for a complete moratorium on the taking of another human life.

Why does man murder? We know that we were created in God’s image (Genesis 1:27) and we were made to live in harmony with God and with our fellow man. This harmony became impossible once sin entered into the picture (Genesis 3). With sin came the propensity for acting violently against one another. Anger, jealousy, pride and hatred can fuel man’s evil bent towards life-ending aggression. The first recorded act of murder was when Cain killed his brother Abel (Genesis 4:8). From that moment on, taking the life of another has been commonplace and, in some circles of society, acceptable. However, to God every life is important, and since God knew that man was sinful and evil and had become “lawless,” He enacted guidelines that would seek to modify man’s behavior (1 John 3:4).

So, is there a difference between murder and killing? First, it is important to note that not all killing is wrong. For instance, the apostle Paul talks about the right of the state to take the lives of evildoers (Romans 13:1-7). This relates to what is commonly referred to as capital punishment. Most countries have consequences for murder. In some cases this requires the life of the perpetrator and a suitable means of putting one to death is chosen and administered (Matthew 5:21;Exodus 21:14). Another instance of acceptable “killing” is that which is done during times of war and at the command of superiors. There were quite a few instances in Scripture where God endorsed and allowed the taking of other lives (1 Samuel 11; Judges 6–7). And finally, although far from acceptable, manslaughter is yet another form of killing someone. This unintentional act apparently happened so often in biblical times that cities of refuge were designated for the manslayer to seek refuge in (Exodus 21:13; Joshua 20). Again, it was never God’s intent to have to use such a drastic measure as taking one’s life to rectify a situation. So, God does make exceptions for the taking of another’s life as long as it lines up with His will. However, premeditated murder of an individual is never God’s will.

What is murder in God’s eyes? From the human perspective, murder is the physical act of taking another’s life. However, we also must consider that God defines murder asany thought or feeling of deep-seated hatred or malice against another person. In other words, it is more than just a physical act that constitutes murder to God, who tells us that “everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15 ESV). When we harbor hatred in our hearts for another, we have committed the sin of murder in God’s eyes. The disdain towards another person never has to be demonstrated outwardly because God looks upon the heart for the truth (1 Samuel 16:7;Matthew 15:19). As Christians and as human beings, we know that unjustified killing is wrong. God’s Word is very clear on this point: “You shall not murder.” And what God says we must obey, or we face the consequences on judgment day.

 

[Kerry]

Sister if you are of Christ then you are not under law. Paul said all things are lawful to me but they all things are not expedient.

Meaning that if I slip and sin I do not lose my salvation and yet I cannot continue in sin as it harms my well being and endangers me of hell. we are all sinful. show one OT person who was void of sin. King David a man after Gods own heart was a murderer and adulterer. Yet their faith was in the cross. thats where are faith must be. Yes we should put to death the killer according to the word. But at the same time we must trust in Christ and Him crucified .

 

[Rockbysea]

"thou shalt not kill" ok now find me a verse where it says its okay to kill to protect your family. Just cause God understands why we sin, doesn't make it okay. If your family is saved, then why worry about them dieing?

So if someone attempts to kill your child, your wife, your friend or a stranger and you have no choice but to use lethal force to save them then you are sinning against God.

This discussion is like one bizarre extreme arguing against the other bizarre extreme…. It’s a sin to disobey authority (God) to protect the innocent and it’s not a sin to obey authority (man) to go kill the innocent.

These bizarre extremes happen when people use their carnal intellect to interpret the letter in contrast to the gift God gives to all His children: the spirit of a “sound mind.”

 

[Nautilus]

So if someone attempts to kill your child, your wife, your friend or a stranger and you have no choice but to use lethal force to save them then you are sinning against God.

This discussion is like one bizarre extreme arguing against the other bizarre extreme…. It’s a sin to disobey authority (God) to protect the innocent and it’s not a sin to obey authority (man) to go kill the innocent.

These bizarre extremes happen when people use their carnal intellect to interpret the letter in contrast to the gift God gives to all His children: the spirit of a “sound mind.”

Some people just cant understand rationality

 

[Rockbysea]

Some people just cant understand rationality

Yes… and unbelievers view these bizarre dialogues and say, “I don’t want to be affiliated with these folks. If this is the kind of reasoning one can develop after years of bible study I’m atta here.”

One can only wonder if that's part of the true aim of some of these discussions: to make the God of the bible look as bizzare as possible.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I love your signature.

Then isn't it possible that both you and Kerry are biased and possibly blinded by a passionate hobby? I'm sorry, I do not mean to be offensive. I just wanted to bring up a possibility. I feel like it is good for all of us to get our biases in check before we approach a biblical debate. If we don't, we could very well just be chilling in a state of error, never allowing someone to get close enough to our hearts to turn them to the truth.

I've called out some people on issues and the people who are most likely to frown on an activity being thrown out are those who have invested a lot of their time and effort into it, or otherwise, just really enjoy the activity.

If I questioned if Christians should watch secular TV, I'm sure I'd get some colorful and passionate retorts by people who LOVE television. Even though I'd probably have a more biblical argument then them, they'd look at Scripture at a different, unnatural angle and would seem to have a plausible answer that would suit them.

I once did the very same thing to justify the belief that in order to be saved, you got to speak in tongues. Maybe you guys should take a step back and re-examine the matter? I'm not suggesting anything that I haven't done myself. I always question my doctrine to keep myself on my toes. If something doesn't hold up, it gets tossed, or filed in the "I think so but I'm not sure" file.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

So if someone attempts to kill your child, your wife, your friend or a stranger and you have no choice but to use lethal force to save them then you are sinning against God.

This discussion is like one bizarre extreme arguing against the other bizarre extreme…. It’s a sin to disobey authority (God) to protect the innocent and it’s not a sin to obey authority (man) to go kill the innocent.

These bizarre extremes happen when people use their carnal intellect to interpret the letter in contrast to the gift God gives to all His children: the spirit of a “sound mind.”

I kind of have had a similar feeling at times. I have never pulled up the verse "Thou shalt not kill" because I don't think it is relevant to the discussion. It is obvious that people murdered and were sanctioned to murder in OT times. However, in NT times things seem to have become much different in that aspect. Opposed to killing, followers of God were being killed in masses.

The disciples were rebuked on more than one occasion when they tried to use violence as a means-Even when it seemed justifiable. And, once again, never have I heard of one example of an apostle using force against another man or telling someone else to.