The Letter to the Romans...

[Keren]

I have also seen a terrible thing here. Taking the words of Paul and making them say that by the Spirit we now are empowered to obey Mosaic Law better? This also is from Satan. Paul never said anything like that. The Mosaic Law was added, because of transgressions , to show how exceedingly sinful all mankind is, that we do not obey the Law according to God's standard. Not while we were unsaved and not after we are saved. The Law condemns, it can not save, it can not add to righteousness. It was never intended to. Jesus Christ is God Himself and He came because in Adam all men fell and sinned. That means all. There is not any time at all in anyone's life, including the Christian life where the Work of Jesus Christ is not central and critical. I don't care how moral you think you are, or how much you think you obey God's Law. The Law was ADDED to SHOW unrighteousness. And to lead to the ONLY other way. Jesus Christ on the Cross. What God expects from us is gratitude and love! Will you break any of Moses`Laws if you love God for giving Jesus.
When Jesus said if you love me you will keep mu commandments He meant keep and guard and hold dear and treasure and listen and obey and pass on to future generations. He did not sy to to the woman caught in adultery, If you go and sin no more I will not condemn you. He said, neither do I condemn you. Now go, and sin no more. Is this not the Christian life, and do we not STILL fall short. Please tell me if you do not.

 

[Elin]

Romans 2:1-5

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ​

What Paul's Saying...

In context of post #7; Paul then turns his attention to those Unrighteous persons (those who know the truth but who don’t act on it). Speaking to them directly, Paul has 2 problems with them: 1) they are hypocrites who judge others for sins they also continue to do; 2) they take advantage of God’s kindness by continuing to sin (because [post #2] grace is the power to be *obedient* to God). Paul says God’s kindness is to help us to repent (i.e. “turn away from sin”), not to continue in it. But those who continue in it have hard hearts and are storing up wrath for the Day of Judgment.


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Alternative.
Paul moves from the unbelief and depravity of the Gentiles to the self-righteousness of the Jews.

He digresses to the judgment of God, giving the first principle whereby God judges: truth.

And he warns the Jews about looking down on Gentile ignorance of the revelation given to Israel, and on their immoral lives.

The purpose of God's kindness is to give opportunity for repentance (2Pe 3:9). The Jews had misconstrued his patience to be a lack of intent to judge.

Paul reminds the Jews that the truth is they are likewise under sin and subject to the wrath of God.

 

[Elin]

Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ​

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul continuing with the last point) when gentiles - who are not aware of God’s law - naturally obey something in God’s law (found in their hearts), *that* becomes the law Christ will judge them by on the last day, even though they may not be totally aware of God’s law...because at least to that extent they know right from wrong.


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Those not under the law will be judged by their conscience.

 

[Elin]

2 options, perish (without Law) or be judged (by Law), those who are perishing dont even have a chance.

The text does not state that those without the law perish.

They are judged by their conscience, as the Jew is judged by the law.

Like the Jew who obeys the law, if they obey their conscience they will not perish.

All this is prior to Christ.

 

[Elin]

Romans 2:17-24

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself area guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth - you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” ​

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul continuing with a contrast) However, those who call themselves “Jews” are aware of God’s whole law. And although they pride themselves on being the light bearers to the world, they’re hypocrites because they are continuously disobedient; breaking God’s law. This leads to the nations blaspheming God saying “wow, so that’s a follower of God? They don’t act any different than anyone else...God must be a mental illness some people go through.” [I took the liberty to modernize this last sentence for a better effect.]


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Paul applies to the Jews he is addressing in chap 2 the principles of God's judgment in vv. 2:1-16:
truth,
according to deeds,
according to the light one has.

 

[Elin]

Romans 2:25-29

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.​

What Paul's Saying...

(Following the context of the hypocrisy of “preaching God’s law but not doing it”) Paul uses the example of circumcision to explain. He says there’s nothing wrong with physical circumcision for anyone who obeys the law of God, but if they disobey God’s law it’s as if they were never circumcised. Likewise, any uncircumcised person who obeys God’s law would be counted as being circumcised...because it’s not about what you can show people (like physical circumcision) but more about an inside conversion. So a true “Jew” is anyone who’s had a true change of heart from the world’s way to obeying God’s law, it’s not about outward symbols.


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A Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit, not by the law.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:1-2

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.​

What Paul's saying...

But for anyone who thinks being a Jew or being circumcised isn’t valuable, Paul explains that both are very valuable, noting that the Jews were given all of the revelations of God.


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Yes, while they were not saving advantages, it is better to have the word of God and the law of God than untruth and lawlessness.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:3-4

What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”​

What Paul's Saying...

(Continuing) and if the Jews are unfaithful (in context of the hypocrisy he’s been discussing unfaithful means “disobedient to God by breaking his law”), it doesn’t negate God’s faithfulness, as God’s word is shown as true.


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Alternative.

Ro 3:4 is a quote of Ps 51:4, where "are" is not in the text.
It reads: "prevail when you judge."

Note the nature of God's faithfulness which Paul affirms: it is his judgment.

Paul is saying that Israel's unfaithfulness will not nullify God's faithfulness to his promises to punish sin, and God would be faithful to his justice and punish the unbelief (v.3) of Israel (v.5).

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:5-8

But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then counters the opposite thought that some may reason with man’s logic: “well if our sins show how righteous and holy God is, then our sins benefit God and we shouldn't be punished.” Paul says they receive fair condemnation.


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Alternative.

If God is glorified in judging sin, then Israel's sin benefits God, and he is unrighteous in inflicting his wrath on their sin.

God cannot be unrighteous, for he is the just judge of the world.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:9-18

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul concludes the matter with the Jews by equalizing both Jews AND non-Jews as “all under sin”, so no one is righteous. All are in the same boat. Paul equates "being under sin" with "unrighteousness".


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Paul concludes the matter with having shown that Gentiles (1:18-32) and Jews (2:1-3:8) are both under sin/unrighteous.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:19-20

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.​

What Paul's Saying...

(Following the previous point) The context is “how EVERYONE is under sin”, so here Paul explains how the law makes this possible. So the subject of this passage is “The Law and how *IT* specifically functions”; how it works to reveal unrighteousness (i.e. sin) in the world. In Context, this passage has nothing to do with the works of men, positively or negatively. The subject of this thought is The Law's works...not men's works.

[Letting the bible interpret itself; the same phrase "work of the law" is first used in Romans 2:14-16 and shows that The Law itself has a "work"; a job to perform. Other translations of the same phrase say "the requirements of the law" (the law's requirements), and "the deeds of the law" (the law's deeds).]

Paul says “The Law Speaks” (an action)...and no one is justified because of what The Law *says* (an action). The Law has a necessary job to do: to show what is a sin (and why we are ALL unrighteous). So “the works of the law” [i.e. "The Law's works" or "The Law's requirements" or "The Law’s actions"] hold the world accountable to a Just God.


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Alternative.

God gave the law to shut up all men in sin.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:21-26

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

What Paul's Saying...

(Contrasting the previous point) On the other hand, Paul says "righteousness" is manifested separately through faith in Christ, available to all. That “faith” gives us his grace as a gift (post #2: grace is the power to be obedient to God...a power that is Christ’s alone) (post #5: Christ’s grace is the power of God for salvation) (post #34 & #35: to be unrighteous = to sin). So in context, Christ’s grace alone gives the power not to sin (i.e. to be righteous; to be obedient to God’s law).

This gift of grace (post #2) was purchased by Christ’s blood, and showed God’s willingness to forget *PAST* sins. And with this grace we can now be justified. So The Law shows God is Just, while Grace shows God is the Justifier. Without BOTH existing together (performing their unique "works"), God could not display his FULL righteousness to the world.


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Alternative.

v. 25 in the Greek reads: propitiation through faith in his blood.

But now God's righteousness, apart from the law, a gift through faith, which has always been the teaching of the OT, (but the Jews go it wrong) is revealed.

The righteousness Paul speaks of here is not power to obey, which is sanctification.

The righteousness Paul is speaking of here is justification, a gift of God, by which we are given right standing (righteousness) with God because Christ has paid our debt for sin.

 

[Elin]

Con't.

God presented Christ as propitiation for the OT saints because he had passed over the punishment due them.

And he presented Christ as propitiation for the sins of the NT saints.

Therefore, God is both just in requiring punishment for sin, and the justifier in providing the punishment for sin.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:27-30

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.​

What Paul's Saying...

Following the context; because it’s not by our own power that we can be obedient to God (but by Christ’s power/grace), and without that power/grace we are found unrighteous by God’s Just Law, we’re in no position to boast. And (in context to the “boasting”) Paul says any boasting is tossed out by a law of faith, not "a law of works" [a shot at his fellow Jews, and not to be confused with "works of the law" (post #35)] or any other “law”, because (post #36) our justification comes by faith, which is separate from the "works of the law" [i.e. "The Law’s actions" or "The Law's Job"] (post #35).

This shows Yah is God and Justifier of all, both of the circumcised and uncircumcised.


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Alternative.

This is about justification (right standing before God, guiltless), a matter of faith only, not a matter of obedience.

This is not about sanctification, the practice of obedience.

 

[Elin]

Romans 3:31

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul says because it’s faith that justifies us some may argue to do away with The Law, but Paul emphatically denounces such an idea. (In context to what Paul says in Post #9, #10, & #12) Paul says we maintain The Law (because as he said earlier, it’s “obeying the law” that makes us righteous)...we simply can’t do that without Christ’s grace, which alone comes from having faith in him.

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Ephesians 2:8 - Salvation is by Grace through faith in Christ​

1. post #37: Faith in Christ...

2. Christ’s gift of Grace...

3. Post #2: Grace is the Christ's power to be obedient to God...

4. Post #36: Obedience to God's Law is righteousness...

5. Post #10: As all will be judged based on their works

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The law of God is the “lock”...Christ’s grace is the “key”...and our faith is how we receive that key. And when we use it we are freed from our bondage to sin and finally able to be obedient to God.


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Okay, misunderstanding of Paul's meaning is now coming home to roost.

Nowhere does Paul say, or imply, "it's obeying the law that makes us righteous."

That is anti-gospel.

Righteousness is justification (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God), which is a gift of God through faith (Ro 5:17).

We are not made righteous by obeying the law, we are made righteous by faith, because Christ remitted our sin and guilt.

The faith that gives us the gift of righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God) then obeys , whereby our character is changed in sanctification (imperfect holiness).

Justification (righteousness) does not change our character,
it simply gives us a guiltless (right) standing before God because Christ has remitted our sin and guilt.

Sanctification (imperfect holiness) through the obedience of faith changes our character.

Righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, character unchanged) is not by law keeping, it is by faith.

Sanctification (change of character, imperfect holiness) is through the obedience of faith.

 

[Elin]

Con't.

We uphold the law because we are made both unrighteous according to it,
and righteous according to it, in our sin and guilt being removed by faith in Christ's atonement for it (Ro 3:25).

 

[Yahshua]

Okay, misunderstanding of Paul's meaning is now coming home to roost.

Nowhere does Paul say, or imply, "it's obeying the law that makes us righteous."

That is anti-gospel.

Righteousness is justification (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God), which is a gift of God through faith (Ro 5:17).

We are not made righteous by obeying the law, we are made righteous by faith, because Christ remitted our sin and guilt.

The faith that gives us the gift of righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God) then obeys , whereby our character is changed in sanctification (imperfect holiness).

Justification (righteousness) does not change our character,
it simply gives us a guiltless (right) standing before God because Christ has remitted our sin and guilt.

Sanctification (imperfect holiness) through the obedience of faith changes our character.

Righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, character unchanged) is not by law keeping, it is by faith.

Sanctification (change of character, imperfect holiness) is through the obedience of faith.

First Elin, thanks a bunch for posting your alternative interpretations...and sticking as close to the format as I asked. Others who see this thread can either "like" an interpretation that's posted or post their alternative.

Again, this thread was for reading of the letter and to zero-in on specifically where our differences are so we can maybe take them to a new thread and hash them out (instead of us always painting such broad strokes with each other)...so I'm going to take this reply of yours as a request for my explanation...and then if you want to debate it we can start a new thread about this passage.

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A big key to the context of Paul's letter (at least for my interpretation) is Romans 2:6-11 (which I think you may have overlooked while posting alternative interpretations).

Post #10

Romans 2:6-11

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.​

What's Paul's Saying...

Paul says God will judge everyone according to their works, and based on your works you will either receive eternal life or wrath. Anyone who does evil (i.e. does not obey the truth) will have distresses and anyone who does good (i.e. obeys the truth) will have peace. It doesn’t matter who.


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Romans 2:6-11 (direct greek-to-english)

6. who will give to each according to the works of him [kata ta erga autou].

7. To those that indeed with endurance in work good, glory and honor and immortality are seeking, life eternal;

8. to those however of self-interest and disobeying [apeithousi = "who disobey"] the truth, being persuaded about [peithomenois = persuaded; obeying; trusting] however - unrighteousness, wrath and anger,

9. tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man - working - evil, of Jews both first, and also Greek

10. glory however and honor, and peace to everyone doing good, to Jews both first, and to Greek

11. not indeed there is partiality with - God​

...In this passage, Paul tells us that "God is going to judge everyone according to their works", and the "disobedient" will see wrath. This passage confirms that indeed this is a matter of obedience that Paul's talking about. Paul then uses words like Righteousness and Unrighteousness through sections that follow in context of this passage and how we must be obedient. Then when we get through to Romans 3:31, we read from Paul - in no uncertain terms...

Romans 3:31 (direct greek-to-english)

Law then do we nullify through faith? Never may it be! but law we uphold [histanomen = stand; standing; establish; steadfast; I cause to stand]​

Question: Do we nullify the law?

Paul Answers: Never may it be.

"But" [a conjunction *contrasting* the thought of "nullifying the law", suggesting "instead"]

"We [collective pronoun that includes Paul & fellow believers] uphold the law".

Even in our modern language when one is said to "uphold the law" it means they're obeying it and not breaking it.

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Again, thanks for your posts Elin...if you'd like you can start a new thread about this passage and we can further analyze and debate it.

 

[chubbena]

I think context is found a few lines earlier in the same passage where Paul says "that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.

A "harvest" is reaped from the work provided. Paul was eager to see the harvest of believers which would strengthen his own faith even more. Like a return on investment of faith.

....in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles.....
I could understand reaping some harvest among the rest of the gentles is reaping the harvest of believers but isn't the "among you" here referring to the believers in Rome? If it is then what was Paul harvesting among believers?

 

[chubbena]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” ​

What Paul's Saying...

A few thoughts ago (in post #2) Paul said that the gospel is “grace from Christ to be obedient”. Now Paul says the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”. So in context, the Power of God for Salvation IS the grace to be obedient...that is the power...offered to anyone who believes. And in it [in the grace to be obedient] the righteousness of God is found from faith, fulfilling scripture.


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I am not so sure of your interpretation of post #2 - see my post #43.
Did Paul quote Habakkuk here? What does "the righteous shall live by his faith" mean in the context of Habakkuk 2?

 

[chubbena]

Alternative.

The gospel is: Christ is declared to be the Son of God. . .by his resurrection from the dead.

Grace is: given to Paul to bring about in others the obedience of faith, through his preaching.

In this statement, grace is working in Paul through his preaching, to bring about in others the obedience of faith.

Was Paul here giving definitions of the words "gospel" and "grace" which the readers of this letter had already received? Isn't gospel preaching in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins which Paul later elaborated in chapters 5, 8 and 10?