There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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It most definitely does.
Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)
“Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’”
Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isaiah 43:13 (NASB)
“Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
Isaiah 48:12 (NASB)
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.
Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)
“Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’”
Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isaiah 43:13 (NASB)
“Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
Isaiah 48:12 (NASB)
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.
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You have got to be kidding. Even the JEWS knew EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT. I called HIMSELF GOD, THEE "I AM".
In fact the Jews understood Him so well that they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy.
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
[SUP]59 [/SUP] Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
Now when I was a Volunteer Chaplain in a super max prison, I asked them in Chapel one day, "If everyone one on the yard had a stone at his feet, and EVERYONE decided to stone to death one man at the same time; what are the ODDs of EVERYONE losing site of that MAN they wanted to stone?" They got the answer right, ZERO, he was a dead man walking.
I believe JESUS make Himself invisible to hide Himself from that crowd that wanted to STONE HIM TO DEATH FOR CALLING HIMSELF THEE "I AM".
You have got to be kidding. Even the JEWS knew EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT. I called HIMSELF GOD, THEE "I AM".
In fact the Jews understood Him so well that they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy.
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
[SUP]59 [/SUP] Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
Now when I was a Volunteer Chaplain in a super max prison, I asked them in Chapel one day, "If everyone one on the yard had a stone at his feet, and EVERYONE decided to stone to death one man at the same time; what are the ODDs of EVERYONE losing site of that MAN they wanted to stone?" They got the answer right, ZERO, he was a dead man walking.
I believe JESUS make Himself invisible to hide Himself from that crowd that wanted to STONE HIM TO DEATH FOR CALLING HIMSELF THEE "I AM".
Question 1 & 2.) I believe there is a mistranslation in Zechariah 12:10, I say this for two reasons. One, because the verse contradicts itself, the "Me" in the first half doesn't agree with "Him" in the first half. Secondly because Johns quote of this texts expresses the true rendering of the verse, saying "Him" or "the One" whom they pierced in the verse instead of the debated "Me".
(John 19:37) "...And, again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the One whom they pierced...”
It also makes no sense for John to change the verse to this since he wasn't trying to express any type of divinity of Jesus but rather his death as a Man in the chapter. Some of the best and oldest Hebrew manuscripts use "Him" instead of "Me", along with many different translations of Bibles, such as: RSV, NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB(1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington.
Even so, lets say for argument sake the verse should read "Me" in reference to YHWH, (Which it might well be) then the verse can still be understood, Jesus Christ was YHWH's representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, so by piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing YHWH. When Jesus sent out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” So we can clearly see that receiving Jesus is the same as receiving the one whom sent Jesus forth, namely the Father. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one.
Another example of this principle can be found in Samuel chapter 1;
(1 Samuel 8:5,7) "...and said to him [Samuel]: “Look! You yourself have grown old, but your own sons have not walked in your ways. Now do appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations...Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them.
The people rejected Samuel as Judge over them, this was in effect the same a rejecting Jehovah since Samuel was a representative of him. So again the same way by rejecting Samuel they in effect rejected God is the same way that by the people piercing Jesus they are piercing Jehovah who sent him. 1 Samuel doesn't prove that Samuel was Jehovah (if that is you point in the versing your citing) anymore than Zec 12:10 shows Jesus was Jehovah.
I understand that it may seem like I'm jumping the gun a little as I haven't yet seen any reasoning on your part as yet, so for i'll assume these aren't your points and keep waiting patiently.
(John 19:37) "...And, again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the One whom they pierced...”
It also makes no sense for John to change the verse to this since he wasn't trying to express any type of divinity of Jesus but rather his death as a Man in the chapter. Some of the best and oldest Hebrew manuscripts use "Him" instead of "Me", along with many different translations of Bibles, such as: RSV, NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB(1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington.
Even so, lets say for argument sake the verse should read "Me" in reference to YHWH, (Which it might well be) then the verse can still be understood, Jesus Christ was YHWH's representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, so by piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing YHWH. When Jesus sent out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” So we can clearly see that receiving Jesus is the same as receiving the one whom sent Jesus forth, namely the Father. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one.
Another example of this principle can be found in Samuel chapter 1;
(1 Samuel 8:5,7) "...and said to him [Samuel]: “Look! You yourself have grown old, but your own sons have not walked in your ways. Now do appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations...Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them.
The people rejected Samuel as Judge over them, this was in effect the same a rejecting Jehovah since Samuel was a representative of him. So again the same way by rejecting Samuel they in effect rejected God is the same way that by the people piercing Jesus they are piercing Jehovah who sent him. 1 Samuel doesn't prove that Samuel was Jehovah (if that is you point in the versing your citing) anymore than Zec 12:10 shows Jesus was Jehovah.
I understand that it may seem like I'm jumping the gun a little as I haven't yet seen any reasoning on your part as yet, so for i'll assume these aren't your points and keep waiting patiently.
It makes no mention of what that name was, nor does it directly call the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit Jehovah, it's merely an assumption to assume that the "name" was Jehovah especially when there isn't any other scripture which applies the name Jehovah to either the Jesus or Holy Spirit. If you could show me a verse(s) which show what the name mentioned in Matt 28:19 was the name Jehovah or a verse which calls Jesus or the HS Jehovah then I'd readily proclaim that your assumption is indeed fact.
Until that time I have to simply stick to my belief that the "name" mentioned was in regard to power and authority, and I'm sure it's impossible to put a name on that, the same way the "name" of the Law ("stop in the name of the Law") is an unknown name, because its regards to authority and not a person.
Until that time I have to simply stick to my belief that the "name" mentioned was in regard to power and authority, and I'm sure it's impossible to put a name on that, the same way the "name" of the Law ("stop in the name of the Law") is an unknown name, because its regards to authority and not a person.
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First, when the NT quotes from the OT it is usually quoting from the Septuagint (which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew), which is why the NT quotes are usually a little different from the OT verse, if you look it up.
Since the Septuagint is itself a translation, and with all translations, the translators have to make a decision between translating things literally or translating thought -- perhaps those who were translating the Septuagint couldn't make sense of the pronoun switching, so they went more with a thought translation there?
The point I'm trying to make with this is that it wasn't John who changed it, but it was those who translated the Septuagint who did.
I don't know Hebrew, so I don't know for sure what the text actually says. But I do know that the NASB is a very highly respected literal translation. Even theologically liberal scholars (many of whom would deny Jesus' deity) accept the NASB as a very accurate translation. If it was a mistranslation here, I think some of these scholars would denounce the NASB as being inaccurate.
I have to go for a few hours, so I won't be able to respond for a bit.
So what your basically trying to say is that John who was guided and inspired by God himself through the holy spirit quoted a text which was wrongly translated which is now forever written in Bibles at John 19:37, this I find hard to believe. We don't even know what Manuscript John quoted from, so for anybody to assume he did would be foolish.
The fact remains, John, the anointed, the apostle of Christ would of surely spoken the correct translation, by accurate direction by God and also through his knowledge on the scripture by being time spent with Jesus. You spoke of logic to me before so think for a second, if the "him" in Zec 12:10 with regard to Jesus is not disputed, and neither is the text john writing in John 19:37 but the "me" in Zechariah 12:10 is then would it be logical to base a belief on such a debated verse, I know I wouldn't.
So again my statement still stands, Zechariah 12:10 cannot be used to show Jesus is Jehovah, even if it is the correct translation which it most probably isn't, reasoning based on Matthew 10:40 along with 1 Samuel 8:5,7 shows how its still possible.
No worries, take your time friend.
The fact remains, John, the anointed, the apostle of Christ would of surely spoken the correct translation, by accurate direction by God and also through his knowledge on the scripture by being time spent with Jesus. You spoke of logic to me before so think for a second, if the "him" in Zec 12:10 with regard to Jesus is not disputed, and neither is the text john writing in John 19:37 but the "me" in Zechariah 12:10 is then would it be logical to base a belief on such a debated verse, I know I wouldn't.
So again my statement still stands, Zechariah 12:10 cannot be used to show Jesus is Jehovah, even if it is the correct translation which it most probably isn't, reasoning based on Matthew 10:40 along with 1 Samuel 8:5,7 shows how its still possible.
No worries, take your time friend.
Thank you. 
You did exactly as I wanted -- answering solely based on the text from Isaiah 45.
Question 4 is important, and I by "true God" I meant God in the absolute sense.
Now, I will want to refer back to this passage later....but I do have another one from the OT to look at first:
Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][h][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Questions:
1.) What do you make of this verse?
2.) Why do you think the speaker, God, switches the pronouns there? -- He starts out saying "Me," and then says "Him."
You did exactly as I wanted -- answering solely based on the text from Isaiah 45. Question 4 is important, and I by "true God" I meant God in the absolute sense.
Now, I will want to refer back to this passage later....but I do have another one from the OT to look at first:
Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][h][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Questions:
1.) What do you make of this verse?
2.) Why do you think the speaker, God, switches the pronouns there? -- He starts out saying "Me," and then says "Him."
Zechariah 12:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.
It makes perfect sense to me too, but I too believe wholeheartedly in the Holy Trinity. If someone changed the pronouns, I do not think the change would have been on the part of our translators, but rather the Jews changed the Me to Him, because they thought it was an illogical error, because they had no spiritual understanding of the Trinity. It also may be the pre-incarnate Christ differentiating between His Deity and His Humanness. The Deity part of Himself cannot die, while the Human part of Himself did die.
They would have had the problem understanding this verse:
Isaiah 6:8 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.
T
The interpretation fits actually very well in context.
"[h=3]John 8:48-59[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)
[h=3]Before Abraham Was, I Am[/h]48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."
In the beginning they are basically saying to Jesus "you think you are better than Abraham!?"
After Jesus saying how Abraham saw his day and continues saying God glorifies him. The Jews take this as Jesus boasting about himself saying how great he is. Then Jesus says the thing that makes them flip, which is him saying he is better than Abraham, which is basically saying he is the best to ever live, because that's who Abraham was to the Jews.
"[h=3]John 8:48-59[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)
[h=3]Before Abraham Was, I Am[/h]48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."
In the beginning they are basically saying to Jesus "you think you are better than Abraham!?"
After Jesus saying how Abraham saw his day and continues saying God glorifies him. The Jews take this as Jesus boasting about himself saying how great he is. Then Jesus says the thing that makes them flip, which is him saying he is better than Abraham, which is basically saying he is the best to ever live, because that's who Abraham was to the Jews.
The proof that the NAME Yahweh is the same, comes from the very same Book of Isaiah that you used for your example.
Observe...
Isa 9.6
For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Now that I have more time to give a reply, I just looked up John 19:37 in the NASB.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
When John quoted the Scripture from Zechariah 12:10, it appears that either the whole verse wasn't present in the Septuagint, or it wasn't meant to be a direct quote of the actual verse, but rather just enough words that gave reference to the Scripture, so everyone would know what verse he was referring to.
I'm not sure what the Septuagint actually says there....but we do know that John intended to refer back to Zechariah 12:10, showing that Jesus was pierced, yes.
Since I don't know Hebrew, I cannot argue that it should be the way that the NASB renders it for sure....but it does present an interesting viewpoint...that YHWH might use both pronouns to refer to Himself. This doesn't prove anything, though, and isn't as strong an argument, since some translations translate it differently from others. But it does provide something for us to think about.
But how can this be -- really -- unless Jesus and the Father are both Jehovah? Any explanation short of this makes absolutely no sense to me.
But Samuel was not the exact image of God, nor did he ever claim, "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father." Nor did he claim, "I and the Father are one."
The statements that Jesus makes about Himself imply that there is a much greater connection between Himself and the Father -- something more than just a mere representative of Him.
The reason I asked about Zechariah 12:10 was because it was a prophecy about Jesus, and because of the switching of the pronouns there, and it was God who was speaking in that verse.
Thanks for being patient with me....there is specifically something I want to do here.