Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

[aMessianic]

Tell me this, do you discount all of Paul's teaching, or just selected parts of it?

I accept any teaching that agrees with Torah/Law/Messiah and the Neviim/Prophets: "To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isa 8:20, cf Deu 13:1-5, Deu 18:21-22, etc.

Do you accept his veracity, or is he a liar in everything he says?

I believe that he spoke many truths, yes.

Why is he in the bible if what he says isn't truth?

Who put him in your "Bible"? Even if YHVH did put Paul's words into the Bible, would you agree that it is possible that they are there to test His people (cf Deu 13:1-5), as the tree tested Adam and Eve in the Garden?

3 simple questions. Shouldn't take you too long to lay out the answers.

Hope that answered your questions.

 

[BradC]

I accept any teaching that agrees with Torah/Law/Messiah and the Neviim/Prophets: "To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isa 8:20, cf Deu 13:1-5, Deu 18:21-22, etc.

I believe that he spoke many truths, yes.

Who put him in your "Bible"? Even if YHVH did put Paul's words into the Bible, would you agree that it is possible that they are there to test His people (cf Deu 13:1-5), as the tree tested Adam and Eve in the Garden?

Hope that answered your questions.

Do you think that Paul, as an apostle, left the righteousness of the law and followed Christ under grace?

 

[The_highwayman]

Tell me this, do you discount all of Paul's teaching, or just selected parts of it? Do you accept his veracity, or is he a liar in everything he says? Why is he in the bible if what he says isn't truth?

3 simple questions. Shouldn't take you too long to lay out the answers.

Phil,
Missionaries tell me the hardest soil to toil is Jewish and the gentile to Jewish.

All you seem to be doing is beating the air...Did not Paul warn against that sort of thing in 1 Cor 9.26?

 

[phil112]

Originally Posted by phil112

Tell me this, 1.do you discount(a) all of Paul's teaching, or (b)just selected parts of it?
I accept any teaching that agrees with Torah/Law/Messiah and the Neviim/Prophets: "To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isa 8:20, cf Deu 13:1-5, Deu 18:21-22, etc.


2.Do you accept his veracity, or is he a liar in everything he says?


I believe that he spoke many truths, yes.


3.Why is he in the bible if what he says isn't truth?
(a)complete error
(b)partial error (most of what he said shouldn't be there)
(c)left in so we would be able to see what a false doctrine looks like


Who put him in your "Bible"? Even if YHVH did put Paul's words into the Bible, would you agree that it is possible that they are there to test His people (cf Deu 13:1-5), as the tree tested Adam and Eve in the Garden?


3 simple questions. Shouldn't take you too long to lay out the answers.


Hope that answered your questions..

I thought that would be too easy.
Question 1...A or B
Question 2...yes or no
Question 3...A, B, or C
Now try again

 

[phil112]

Phil,
Missionaries tell me the hardest soil to toil is Jewish and the gentile to Jewish.

All you seem to be doing is beating the air...Did not Paul warn against that sort of thing in 1 Cor 9.26?

As long he is lending an ear......one excuse he will not have on that day is "bbbut no one told me"

 

[sc81]

well if paul really was a false prophet that wouldn't bode well for any christian considering the bulk of his writings make up christian theology.

 

[The_highwayman]

As long he is lending an ear......one excuse he will not have on that day is "bbbut no one told me"

Phil,
Did Jesus run after the young rich ruler?

In fact, did Jesus run after anyone who rejected him?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Eh whether or not you consider Paul an apostle or not I think Paul was so brutally honest about his own short-comings that I can deem him to at least be an honest writer worthy of inclusion into the Bible. Not only that but also consider the fact that if you do include Paul as an apostle that he was the only one (that is mentioned in scripture) of being most highly educated and holding Roman citizenship as well as possibly being distantly related to Herod (roman puppet king of the jews.) Plus he was a pharisee and part of the jewish religious establishment of the time. All these things make that man called Saul of Tarsus one of the most historically provable people of the 1st Century AD.

Now whether or not I personally believe Paul was an Apostle. Yes I personally do believe he was. Here is my reasoning:

1. He would have been witness to parts of Jesus' life, although as Saul of Tarsus at that time he would have started out against Jesus and his followers (this makes his Road to Damascus incident more credible as it would have taken quite a miracle to turn one of the biggest enemies of Christianity into one of their greatest supporters.)

2. He worked with the other Apostles of the time.

3. The messages of his writings are in harmony with the rest of the Apostles' teachings

4. He suffered much persecution, and eventually execution for his belief in Christ.


Here's an interesting thought. It seems the early churches of the 1st Century AD pondered the same question as this topic to which Paul himself answered.

Now even though I call Paul an Apostle, I also called him The Least of the Apostles.
Why do I call Paul The Least of the Apostles? Answer is simply because Paul himself calls himself The Least of the Apostles so I will take his word for it.

1 Corinthians 15: 9-10
9) For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10) But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[megaman125]

Hmm?

Is Paul above Christ and above God's former prophets?

I trust GOD, not a man (not even me).

You're absolutely right that we should not be placing Paul above Jesus. Paul isn't the one who died for our sins.

However, given your statements here, could you explain to me how you trust anything written in the Bible? After all, none of the Bible was physically written by Jesus, so how do you trust it?

 

[aMessianic]

Do you think that Paul, as an apostle, left the righteousness of the law and followed Christ under grace?

I don't believe his self-proclaimed status as an "apostle", but yes, I believe he taught against righteousness by obedience and taught a new message of grace- and faith- alone.

 

[aMessianic]

I thought that would be too easy.
Question 1...A or B
Question 2...yes or no
Question 3...A, B, or C
Now try again

Sorry, trying to box me into your preconceived notions won't work.

It's a "Have you beaten your wife lately?" kind of thing.

 

[aMessianic]

well if paul really was a false prophet that wouldn't bode well for any christian considering the bulk of his writings make up christian theology.

Exactly. Wouldn't it be wise for anyone concerned with his or her eternal soul wish to examine both sides of the story, then?

 

[aMessianic]

... most highly educated and holding Roman citizenship as well as possibly being distantly related to Herod (roman puppet king of the jews.) Plus he was a pharisee and part of the jewish religious establishment of the time....

It's interesting that you consider these things to be in Paul's favor ... I consider them to be points against him.

 

[phil112]

Sorry, trying to box me into your preconceived notions won't work.

It's a "Have you beaten your wife lately?" kind of thing.

No, you simply know you are proposing a false picture of Paul and you are trying to leave wiggle room. It's too late, you have already painted yourself in that corner. Paul was picked by God, before he was born, Christ gave Paul God's word, AFTER He(Christ) was resurrected so that all gentiles would recive the word that Christ brought to the world. Christ taught, himself, for 3.5 years, and Paul finished Christ's ministry.
If you discount Paul, you are attempting to say that God made a mistake by choosing him, and Christ wasted His time teaching him in Arabia.
Since the Holy Ghost brought us scripture, you also insult the Spirit by saying some of Paul's words are false.
You made your bed, now lie in it. Too bad the blankets won't cover you up.

For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

 

[aMessianic]

No, you simply know you are proposing a false picture of Paul and you are trying to leave wiggle room. It's too late, you have already painted yourself in that corner.

I don't perceive myself to be in any corner.

Have you beaten your wife/girlfriend/child/friend lately? Yes or no.
Have you read the books of the prophets Sirach and Enoch lately? Yes or no.

Answer my questions, and I'll then gladly answer yours

Paul was picked by God, before he was born, Christ gave Paul God's word, AFTER He(Christ) was resurrected so that all gentiles would recive the word that Christ brought to the world. Christ taught, himself, for 3.5 years, and Paul finished Christ's ministry.

I'm sure that's what you believe. I believe otherwise.

If you discount Paul, you are attempting to say that God made a mistake by choosing him, and Christ wasted His time teaching him in Arabia. Since the Holy Ghost brought us scripture, you also insult the Spirit by saying some of Paul's words are false.

You believe Paul's words to be "Scripture". I do not.

What if I reword what you said: "If you discount Joseph Smith, you are attempting to say that God made a mistake by choosing him, and Christ wasted His time teaching him in America. Since the Holy Ghost brought us scripture, you also insult the Spirit by saying some of Joseph Smith's words are false."?

You made your bed, now lie in it. Too bad the blankets won't cover you up.

Your bed you made for yourself is not my bed.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

It's interesting that you consider these things to be in Paul's favor ... I consider them to be points against him.

Lol that's quite ironic because it seems so did Paul. Therefore you ironically agree with Paul.

I merely put these not so much in his favor as an Apostle, but rather in favor of him being a historically provable person. This adds ironically in his favor because it displays he began bad as Saul of Tarsus, and was made a new man through Jesus, becoming The Apostle Paul. Perhaps these things are why Paul himself claims he himself is The Least of the Apostles (though an Apostle nonetheless.)

 

[aMessianic]

Lol that's quite ironic because it seems so did Paul. Therefore you ironically agree with Paul.

I merely put these not so much in his favor as an Apostle, but rather in favor of him being a historically provable person. This adds ironically in his favor because it displays he began bad as Saul of Tarsus, and was made a new man through Jesus, becoming The Apostle Paul. Perhaps these things are why Paul himself claims he himself is The Least of the Apostles (though an Apostle nonetheless.)

Can I claim to be an apostle too?

 

[phil112]

I don't perceive myself to be in any corner.

Have you beaten your wife/girlfriend/child/friend lately? Yes or no

I wouldn't dignify that accusation with a response..

Have you read the books of the prophets Sirach and Enoch lately? Yes or no.

No

Answer my questions, and I'll then gladly answer yours

There are your answers

 

[chubbena]

Shalom, friend.

I earnestly desire and seek out correction, and for anyone to show the errors of my reasoning. In fact, I've earnestly prayed for that very thing, that, if I am in error, that YHVH would show me clearly so, and bring people into my life that can guide me so. But I have yet to encounter such correction. For example, I've brought up many things in this very thread that nobody has satisfactorily argued against in a rational manner with references (but they instead resort to ad hominem attacks and red herrings).

I do not seek to be different and out of the mainstream in this area. It is difficult enough as it is to be Messianic, but to be a non-Pauline Messianic ...

So, yes, if you can do so, please be my guest and try to convince me

In your post #121 you said Paul's letters might be there to test His people. I once had that thought but was soon replaced by another - that Paul's letters are like Yeshua's parables.
The disciples asked why Yeshua speaks to the people in parables.
We ask why Paul's letters are so hard to understand.
Yeshua said "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." He says to those who not only listen but keep asking Him questions. Those who seek shall find.
Paul quoted many scripture verses in his letters particularly the one to the Romans. Those who spend the time to understand the so called OT, which is spoken by the Word, shall understand what he said.

 

[aMessianic]

In your post #121 you said Paul's letters might be there to test His people. I once had that thought but was soon replaced by another - that Paul's letters are like Yeshua's parables.
The disciples asked why Yeshua speaks to the people in parables.
We ask why Paul's letters are so hard to understand.
Yeshua said "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." He says to those who not only listen but keep asking Him questions. Those who seek shall find.
Paul quoted many scripture verses in his letters particularly the one to the Romans. Those who spend the time to understand the so called OT, which is spoken by the Word, shall understand what he said.

I respect that you found truth in Paul's writings.

How do you handle Messiah's warning against following the teachings of the Pharisees, and the fact that Paul is a Pharisee?