Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

[pickles]

How sad that such fear tactics are used to steal the word of God given.
As another said well, about being familier with scripture, because Peter often spoke about how well Paul explained salvation in Jesus.
Knowladge of the scriptures does help, but also faith, for God never fails in Jesus to keep us from confusion.
And this false teaching about Paul is trully a tactic of confusion.

God bless
pickles

 

[nathan3]

Sorry for getting on your case JaumeJ about not watching the video. Maybe I will transcribe it later. Not anytime soon, because its going to take some time.

 

[JaumeJ]

NP....not to worry...........keep posting.

 

[Karraster]

I did ask for anyone to let me know which part of the Word is quoted in the video. I asked because if it is all from the Epistles there would be a grievous conflict of interest in relation to Paul; he authored most of them.

Hi brother JJ, I just watched it, took skimpy cliff notes, but maybe I conveyed the basic message.

The video man is strongly for Paul. (He's a pastor, forget his name, sorry)goes on to say, that Paul not being for Jesus is a lie from the adversary who wants to divide and conquer. If you start thinking Paul is false, you have to question Peter, John, Acts, it's like dominoes. furthermore, he considers it a test whether to believe or not.

References:
Acts 9 (mostly used this)
Acts 22 and 26

Isaiah says ..."it shall come to the Gentiles....to spread the Word to the Nations..."
Context is key******he stresses this several times throughout
Esp Acts 9:20***where he preached Son of God***
he didn't preach against the law......God forbid quote
What greater witness could there be? God used a man who had persecuted followers of Jesus.....the same people who wanted to kill Jesus and the rest of the disciples also wanted to kill Paul......
."Workers in the vineyard Parable"
2 Peter2
2 Peter3:11-18....esp 16/17
Malachi

Study Torah^^^you cannot understand Paul without studying Torah!!!

And ya better get your head on straight..believe the Bible...we're in for rougher trials!!! (Hey, I really like this guy

John 21:15-17...3 levels of believers..beginner, intermediate, learned../////some people use this verse to discredit Paul, saying it concerns him. ridiculous!
John21:18-19???????maybe this was the one they use to discredit///wait, it's both

Closing prayer(just a portion) When that serpent raised his head, kick him back down to the ground where he belongs. Don't sow seeds of discord and division, the Bible is true, believe it..in Yahshua's Name. Amien
^^^^^^^



My belief of Paul, he's the real deal. Hard to understand perhaps. Keep studying. Keep reaching. We can't know all things, but we believe that our Creator has sent His only begotten Son to redeem us from sin, we got a good start.

 

[JaumeJ]

So, anyone who wonders, the jury is still out. Some of the quotes are from Paul's own writing, while others from the Old Testament are rather general, having nothing to do with Paul's status.

Although Paul may seem a ball of confusion at times, I do like his teachings, one in particular is when he teaches, "Consider your calling............etc." He is the first to say we do not belong to Paul, for Paul did not suffer and shed his blood for the salvation of all who come to the cross. Yeshua is our Salvation, and Paul is sent out by Him, according to Paul's writings...

 

[nathan3]

So, anyone who wonders, the jury is still out. Some of the quotes are from Paul's own writing, while others from the Old Testament are rather general, having nothing to do with Paul's status.

Although Paul may seem a ball of confusion at times, I do like his teachings, one in particular is when he teaches, "Consider your calling............etc." He is the first to say we do not belong to Paul, for Paul did not suffer and shed his blood for the salvation of all who come to the cross. Yeshua is our Salvation, and Paul is sent out by Him, according to Paul's writings...

Paul taught salvation of Christ. is that a ball of confusion ? He wen from a comfortable life, to people trying to Kill him. the same people that killed Christ.

Peter said he taught Christ. Do we then throw away Peter's writings ? Luke, Penned much of Acts for Paul, do we then throw out Acts then , And the Gospel of Luke ? Do you believe in the virgin birth of Christ? because its recorded in Luke.

If the verdict is still out, you have little hope to understand any of God's words. It will All, be one big ball of confusion, and Satan is going to have his way with those, who entertain, the thought, that Paul was false. But its just right for Satan.

 

[JaumeJ]

Were you prudent in your critique, you would see I read Paul for instruction, however because some of the proof is not valid in a court of law because it is penned by Paul, it disqualifies iteself as being a pure conflict of interest in determining his status as an apostle. He is not one of the twelve, so he is defintely not going to have his name on one of the foundations of the New Jerusalem. The other scriptural references could be to anyone, you, me, anyone. Strictly speaking, it is not truly coherent. As for Paul preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, yes, he does, but he also throws in his personal opinions, especially when it comes to women teaching, covering the head, and other traditions of man, just as do many today. Also were his teaching concise there would not be so much debate within the ranks of true believers on his stance on the law, grace and obedience. I believe he is in line with our Lord, Yeshua, however when something he has purported is not clear, I get the straight dope from our Savior. If there is error in my approach, it is certain Yeshua will not hold it against me since I always go to Him.

 

[nathan3]

Were you prudent in your critique, you would see I read Paul for instruction, however because some of the proof is not valid in a court of law because it is penned by Paul, it disqualifies iteself as being a pure conflict of interest in determining his status as an apostle. He is not one of the twelve, so he is defintely not going to have his name on one of the foundations of the New Jerusalem. The other scriptural references could be to anyone, you, me, anyone. Strictly speaking, it is not truly coherent. As for Paul preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, yes, he does, but he also throws in his personal opinions, especially when it comes to women teaching, covering the head, and other traditions of man, just as do many today. Also were his teaching concise there would not be so much debate within the ranks of true believers on his stance on the law, grace and obedience. I believe he is in line with our Lord, Yeshua, however when something he has purported is not clear, I get the straight dope from our Savior. If there is error in my approach, it is certain Yeshua will not hold it against me since I always go to Him.

I think the problem is not with Paul; but our understanding the scriptures. Peter said this was the case, and it would lead some to their own, destruction. The covering on the head of women is Christ ( because of the angles ) the fallen ones.

If we dont understand the scriptures then people would be confused about Paul also. Because Paul taught Christ's teachings . Anyway. Not much I can say about this thread, but I would read all of Peters letters.

 

[JaumeJ]

You know, most of the folks who post here have read all of the Epistles at least ten times, me, I have probably read them ten times that.

I understand what is being said by Paul, but often I do not find what he specifies in the rest of the Word. This is why many wonder about his odd approach to many situations, specific to each assembly.

Thus I have determined, not concluded, that his resolutions are correct for those specifiec assemblies.

I do know if I obey the Lord, I am not in any danger of condemnation, so when Jesus, Yeshua, says not to teach against the least of the laws, I do not, yet while obeying Him, I know I am forgiven any transgression resulting from sin residing in me, as teaches Paul in this particular case also.

You are addressing many sage yet cautious folks who are not necessarily against Paul, they simply admit there are areas they do not know, yet to be revealed.

I think the problem is not with Paul but understanding the scriptures. Peter said this was the case, and it would lead some to their own, destruction. The covering on the head of women is Christ ( because of the angles ) the fallen ones.

If we dont understand the scriptures then people would be confused about Paul also. Because Paul taught Christ's teachings . Anyway. Not much I can say about this thread, but I would read all of Peters letters.

 

[Karraster]

Paul was many things, to appeal to a variety of people. He spread the Word like crazy! I agree with JJ, in that some I don't understand. However, I have no doubt he was chosen.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For although I am a free man, not bound to do anyone’s bidding, I have made myself a slave to all in order to win as many people as possible. [SUP]20 [/SUP]That is, with Jews, what I did was put myself in the position of a Jew, in order to win Jews. With people in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah, I put myself in the position of someone under such legalism, in order to win those under this legalism, even though I myself am not in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. [SUP]21 [/SUP]With those who live outside the framework of Torah, I put myself in the position of someone outside the Torah in order to win those outside the Torah — although I myself am not outside the framework of God’s Torah but within the framework of Torah as upheld by the Messiah. [SUP]22 [/SUP]With the “weak” I became “weak,” in order to win the “weak.” With all kinds of people I have become all kinds of things, so that in all kinds of circumstances I might save at least some of them.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I do it all because of the rewards promised by the Good News, so that I may share in them along with the others who come to trust.

 

[Karraster]

To that I add, he understood Torah so well, and the Message of Messiah. He stayed within the framework of those.

 

[BradC]

There are things that Paul wrote that we have recorded in scripture that JaumeJ and others do not agree with because Paul no longer trusted in the righteousness of the law. They do not believe that all he wrote was inspired of the Holy Spirit and for the Jewish and Gentile believers alike. Paul also separated the people and nation of Israel in unbelief from the church, which he got much revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ. Without the revelation he received we would not fully know about the body of Christ and how that body functions with Christ as the head. Because Paul was not one of the original twelve that walked with Jesus and because his persecution of the church prior to conversion, somehow his apostleship is deemed to be of a lesser sort and not worthy of the attention that we give to the writings of the other apostles. This is a troublesome passage they have problems with...

1 Cor 15:1-10 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

The underlined portions of this passage is difficult for them because of the favor of God that was bestowed upon Paul, a murderer by mandate and by accessory and persecutor of the church. Therefore he is looked upon as one who can not be fully trusted and his teachings are suspect because they went beyond what Christ had taught the disciples but were given to him, by his own claim, as revelation from Christ (Gal 1:12).

 

[JaumeJ]

People should really not speak for what is in the hearts of others. Only Yahweh knows what is in the hearts of men. It isnot good when people will make a list of what others do not believe while they have no understanding whatsoever of holy tolerance within the ranks of the Body of Yeshua.

Sometimes it is best to shut up about others.

 

[Karraster]

[h=3]Brad's post reminded me of this..


Luke 7:36-50
[/h]Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]36 [/SUP]One of the P’rushim invited Yeshua to eat with him, and he went into the home of the Parush and took his place at the table. [SUP]37 [/SUP]A woman who lived in that town, a sinner, who was aware that he was eating in the home of the Parush, brought an alabaster box of very expensive perfume, [SUP]38 [/SUP]stood behind Yeshua at his feet and wept until her tears began to wet his feet. Then she wiped his feet with her own hair, kissed his feet and poured the perfume on them.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]When the Parush who had invited him saw what was going on, he said to himself, “If this man were really a prophet, he would have known who is touching him and what sort of woman she is, that she is a sinner.” [SUP]40 [/SUP]Yeshua answered, “Shim‘on, I have something to say to you.” “Say it, Rabbi,” he replied. [SUP]41 [/SUP]“A certain creditor had two debtors; the one owed ten times as much as the other. [SUP]42 [/SUP]When they were unable to pay him back, he canceled both their debts. Now which of them will love him more?” [SUP]43 [/SUP]Shim‘on answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.” “Your judgment is right,” Yeshua said to him.

 

[nathan3]

Just one look at some things said in the chat rooms , not about just Paul, but many things, is very worrying. All while the enemy is closing in all around.

I'm just upset with what people are saying. Because new Christians will see that, yes, and they will question their faith. Is that okay, in light of all scripture that teach against that kind of thing.

Paul, falls inline with all of the Bible, he taught the Law, which Christ, said He did not change. Paul also, taught all of Christ teachings. What more can be said, other then, we need to study his letters much closer, reading with understanding.

 

[BradC]

People should really not speak for what is in the hearts of others. Only Yahweh knows what is in the hearts of men. It isnot good when people will make a list of what others do not believe while they have no understanding whatsoever of holy tolerance within the ranks of the Body of Yeshua.

Sometimes it is best to shut up about others.

Have you never read what our Lord said in (Luke 6:45)...

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Are you trying in a polite way to tell me to shut up and keep quiet about your heart issues you have with the apostle Paul? Perhaps you should post in another thread if you feel so strong about it. You do have problems with Paul which go to the heart of his gospel.

 

[JaumeJ]

You are quite in error. Have you read all of my posting in this thread. I learn from Paul, and I have said it before, but being emperical in my approach to the resolution of the thread, I have simply submitted factual reasoning on why some do not understand for certain if he is an apostle. Yes, I have posted he is not one of the twelve, because he is not, but I am also aware anyone sent out by Yahweh is an apostle, because sent out is what apostle means, that is the Hebrew word for it.

I am no more nor less polite as you say than are you, no, probably more polite. You bother to pick out my name to use in your feigned intellectual response to what I have posted, and actually you have not read what I have posted. I will not argue with you futher about your mind reading capabilities, you are moot at this point.

I forgot, good bye.

Have you never read what our Lord said in (Luke 6:45)...

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Are you trying in a polite way to tell me to shut up and keep quiet about your heart issues you have with the apostle Paul? Perhaps you should post in another thread if you feel so strong about it. You do have problems with Paul which go to the heart of his gospel.

 

[phil112]

You are quite in error................. I am no more nor less polite as you say than are you, no, probably more polite. You bother to pick out my name to use in your feigned intellectual response to what I have posted, and actually you have not read what I have posted. I will not argue with you futher about your mind reading capabilities, you are moot at this point.

I forgot, good bye.

Sounds polite to me.

 

[JaumeJ]

Sarcasm is the most base form of humor. The content of what I state is true. Are you here to stir the pot? Is this your exhibition of courtesy?

Sounds polite to me.

 

[nathan3]

[size=+1]Just to try to direct the thread back to the scripture, consider Peter's letter here:

2 Peter 3:


15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;


( Peter says Paul wrote of Salvation, in his letters, with wisdom that was given to him. That's a good witness to Paul, from another Apostle who considers Paul a "beloved brother " )



16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


( Speaking of these things Peter just prior taught himself, in " all of his epistles " . Peter gives credence to all of Paul's letters.
There is also the serious warning, to understand Paul's letters too. Those who are unlearned and unstable wrest. In 2 Timothy 2:15 ,it tells us to study to show our self approved before God. And that there was a warning, of shame, if we did not study. And Peter takes it farther, saying there would be destruction. Paul in his own letters said in 2 Thess 2, that if people wanted to believe a lie, that even God, would send them strong delusion. )


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

( We have to stay away from the error of the wicked, and not fall from our steadfastness in our faith. Those tenets are written in all the Bible. )


18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


( The same knowledge Peter said, Paul taught of ).[/size]