The Letter to the Romans...

Hoffco · Jan 28, 2014

This has been some delightful reading , from both Yahshua and Elin, thank you both. I will comment on a couple weak points. Yahshua, Justi. and salvation are a part of the whole plan of salvation; Which God spelled out, from beginning to end, in Rom. 8:29-30 The differences are important but are part of the over all plan, purpose of God; we are saved. being saved and will be saved. I'm sure you both will agree. God's power is not "attained "by faith, it is given to those who believe; it is a forceful giving,man resists God overcomes, with His powerful grace. Elin, We are not "glorified" yet. Hoffco Must go get medicine for two sick hens.

Elin · Jan 29, 2014

Hoffco said:

Thanks.

But check out Ro 8:30.

Paul states we are predestined, called, justified and glorified--all in the past tense.

All are firmly grounded in God's sovereign and set purpose and, therefore,
are as certain as if all had already happened.
It is past tense even for the elect who are not yet born.

What a gospel . . .my salvation is part of God's plan from before the foundation of the world to glorify his mercy.

Historicist · Jan 29, 2014

Elin said:

Elin, who is the subject matter in Romans 8:28-39 addressing (i.e., what is their ancestry)? And be specific, don't just say they were "Gentiles." Use the contextual evidence in Romans (it's there) to identify if they were descended from non-Israelites such as Edomites and Canaanites, or if they were one and the same with "Abraham our father" (Rom. 4:1, 12, 16); and "our father Isaac" (9:10). Again, be specific, don't just say they were Gentiles.

Elin · Jan 29, 2014

Time for another recap before we get into imputed guilt from Adam and
imputed righteousness from Jesus Christ.

The theme of Romans is God's righteousness, both
the righteousness from God in justification,
and the righteousness of God in his judgments and actions.

We started with the unrighteousness of the Gentiles,
then moved to the unrighteousness of the Jews, and
concluded with the shutting up of all mankind in sin and unrighteousness.

Then we looked at the righteousness of God "imputed" (declared) by justification,
through Christ,
and received by faith alone, no law keeping or works of obedience involved in its reception,
according to the principle of 3:27-31--a man is justified by faith apart apart from observing the law.
and illustrated in Abraham (chp 4).

And all dedicated to one point: righteousness/justififcation is by faith alone,
and not by works of obedience.

Ro 4:1-17:

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
What does the Scripture say?

'Abraham believed God and it was credited (reckoned, imputed) to him as righteousness.'. . .

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom
God credits righteousness apart from works. . .

We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited (reckoned) to him as righteousness.
Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
It was not after, but before!

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal (guarantee) of the righteousness he had by faith
while he was still uncircumcised.
So then he is the father of all (Gentiles) who believe without circumcision (but have not been circumcised),
in order that (causality) righteousness might be credited (reckoned) to them (not earned by works of obedience).

And he is also the father of the circumcised (Jews) who not only are circumcised but who also walk
in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had (who had no Mosaic law on which to base
a righteous by obedience) before he was circumcised (circumcision was the seal guaranteeing
his righteousness, v.11; it was not guaranteed by obedience of works).

It was not through law (-keeping, obedience, because there was no law) that Abraham and his offspring
received the promise. . .but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless because
law brings wrath (not fulfillment of promise).

Therefore, the promise comes by faith (not by obedience of law keeping), so that it may be of grace and
may be guaranteed (which obedience of law-keeping cannot do unless it is faultless) to all Abraham's offspring. . .

. . .God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead
(birth of Isaac from a "dead" womb, v.19; resurrection of Christ)
and calls things that are not as though they were (completed;
ability to create out of nothing, as he did in the dead womb of Sarah)." (Ro 4:1-17)

Then in 5:1-11, Paul presents the fruits of righteousness by justification: peace and joy.

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Yahshua said:

Romans 5:9

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

What Paul's Saying...

INTERESTING POINT: Paul shows Justification and Salvation are two separate things. He defines Justification as being covered by Christ blood/life, while Salvation is future deliverance from God’s Wrath. Since Paul brings up God’s wrath again, we must return to it in context.

1. (In context) God will judge all according their works (Post #10) and his wrath will be delivered to those who are disobedient (Post #6).

2. Justification is by (having Abraham’s level of) faith in God who raised Christ (post #222), and it’s a gift from God (post #177 & #186)

3. One who is Justified is covered by Christ’s life/blood (Post #223) – past tense.

4. Grace (also received by faith in God) is the Power from Christ (Post #2); the power not to sin (Post #36). And as far as Paul says, it's the Power of Salvation (Post #5) from God’s wrath – future tense.

So it’s incorrect to say the phrase “we are now saved”...it’s better to say it like Paul says it: “we (who continue to believe) will be saved” (from God’s wrath).

Right now, believers are “justified”. And they’re no longer weak because they also have Christ’s grace; the power TO BE saved. Specifically, it’s the power to live an obedient life and not sin. It’s the "change of heart" (post #29)...and the effect of that change is having Christ’s obedience (Post #36 & Post #39).

Christ’s obedience then fulfills the Law (Post#12), as God will judge everyone according to their works (post #10).

If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

The ? here is of what works, God's or self? That I see needs clarity. so many verses seem to point to flesh self works, when no flesh will ever please God outside of Christ's

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Yahshua said:

Romans 5:10

For if while we were {past tense} enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are {present tense} reconciled, shall we be {future tense} saved by his life.

What Paul's Saying...

(In context to “salvation = future deliverance from God's wrath”) Paul confirms it a second time. He even uses different grammar tenses in this one thought, making clear distinctions between past, present and future events.

1. Were enemies...
2. Are reconciled...
3. Shall be saved.

[Hmm. Very interesting.] I think if anyone was “saved” (by *our* Christian understanding of the meaning of "saved") it was Paul...but while alive, he doesn't say he “was” saved in this letter. Again, he says he/they “will be” saved.

So again if we have faith we are justified, reconciled to God through Christ...but we are not saved yet. However, if we continue in that faith; if we endure, we will be saved through Christ's life (which is the process spelled out above).

If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

We will eventually come to the end of the energy of our own flesh, give up and plead to God, when we see we can't be complete in and of ourselves ever, as the disciples saw in Matt 19 and asked how can it be possible to be saved?
You see Paul leadingt the reader to it is all God and none of any one else?

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Yahshua said:

Once one sees the reconciliation and agree with God that they are forgiven, they are ready to be transformed from death in flesh to life in the Spirit of God, a gift from God once one finalizes they are reconciled (forgiven) by God through Son it is final. But life comes from the resurrected Christ by Faith in God's amazing Mercy through Son

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Hoffco said:

For the truth of the Gospel and the Glory of God, I will correct the "dribble drabble" coming from the mouth of Elin, Sorry, Elin, but what you say, makes as much sense as the naked man running down the middle of the road ,yelling "Repent, the end is near!" Paul begin his doctrinal truths in 1:1"Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God" Please, read that, for the first time in your life with an intelligent mind. The theme of Romans is: THE GOSPEL of GOD. NOW the doctrinal theme is heavy , with little brake, thru out the chps.1-11: Then we see more application of the Gospel for personal living, which has already been present in all the chps. Please read with some intelligence. Lets drop this and con't our study with Yahshua. Love in Christ. Hoffco

Just a ? for you Hoffco, how are we saved by works of the flesh or works of God? That is what Elin I see was stating, the difference in Spirit works and works of the flesh

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Elin said:

More precise clarification:

"Stand" is in the present tense, so we are now standing in this grace of peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are no longer God's enemies (v.10), for we have been credited with guiltlessness and righteousness before him.

And now we are confident that the glory of God for which we were created (3:23)
will be ultimately realized in his "new creation."

Grace is God's unmerited favor.

Grace is God's power at work in the believer.

Grace is the power of God regenerating our spirit, raising it from death to eternal life.

The glory of God is the "new creation" by his power,
in the grace of rebirth, justification, sanctification, glorification.

All by his resurrected life this is so. If we ask God for this new life?

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Elin said:

Alternative:

Grace is not the power of salvation.

Grace is God's power acting, saving us.

We don't gain the power of salvation.

We are saved by God's power.

All mankind is ungodly (Ro 1:18-3:20), we are neither righteous nor good,
so Christ's love is not grounded in any inherent worthiness on our part (as in obedience),
but grounded solely in God's free grace.
In fact, it is lavished on us in spite of our ungodly unrighteousness and unworthiness.

More separation of grace from works by Paul.

The power is in the resurrection of Christ where deasth is swallowed up in victory

Hizikyah · Jan 29, 2014

homwardbound said:

This is truly the greatest gift Yahweh ever gave to mankind!

Because we know Yahweh raised up Yahshua we know that we also will be raised up!

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Elin · Jan 29, 2014

Hoffco said:

Yes, there are gospel truths in the salutation identifying the writer and/or the recipients of Paul's letters,
but the salutation is not the body of the letter,
wherein is presented the doctrinal instruction of the letter.

However, Romans treats of the righteousness
from God, in justification by faith alone and
of God, in his judgments and actions,

as well as the unrighteousness of Gentile, Jews and, therefore, all mankind (1:16-4:25),
before presenting the fruits of righteousness by justification: peace and joy in (5:1-11)
then righteousness "imputed" by faith (i.e., justification) in 5:12-21
and righteousness "imparted" (i.e., sanctification) in chps 6-8.

After presenting the righteousness from God in chps 1-8, he presents the righteousness of God
in the rejection of Israel for its unbelief (chps 9-11),
and ends his presentation of righteousness with the practice of righteousness (12:1-15:13).

Works for me. . .

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Karraster said:

And was this not Christ's blood alone as done deal? Finished and secured in Father

Elin · Jan 29, 2014

Historicist said:

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but the letter is addressed to the NT believers in Rome,
who would be both believing Jews (Ro 4:1, 12, 16) and believing Gentiles (Ro 4:9-11, 16-17).

Both groups are the single church, the one body of Christ, and the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Elin said:

Does not salvation mean life in the resurrected Spirit of Christ. For no one can see the new life without the Spirit of God right?
We must be born again

homwardbound · Jan 29, 2014

Hoffco said:

I do not see God forcing God's power on anyone ever. We have free choice and God presents that free choice to all through the Holy Spirit of God and all when the time comes will have made their choice to believe and receive or not
Today is the day of salvation, to believe or not, and God shows the results through the believer as was done through Abraham. God works done through him by Faith in God

Elin · Jan 29, 2014

homwardbound said:

"The gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes,

because it reveals a righteousness from God that is by faith." (Ro 1:16-17)

Grace is not the power of salvation, the gospel is the power of salvation.

We don't gain the power of salvation, we are saved by the righteousness from God that comes
through faith by grace (God's mighty power at work in us).

The gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe.

Hoffco · Jan 29, 2014

To Homwardbound, welcome aboard, thanks for the truth that resurrection power is what saves us, but that is just a sub. point in Paul's over all THEME of HIS writtings, namely: THE GOSPEL. IT is the same POWER of GOD that raised JESUS from the dead. "THE GOSPEL is the POWER of GOD, The raising of Jesus was only Jesus, no one else was raised "WITH"Jesus. The aim of the Gospel is to make HOLY, sanctified and justified HOLY persons like Jesus to fill the new earth. That holiness is both, first, IMPARTED and secondly IMPUTED righteousness. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 29, 2014

To Historicist, Welcome aboard. The subjects of Rom.8:28-39 are : all who LOVE God and are the "called according to His,GOD'S purpose." vs,29-30 These at the only persons who will be saved of the whole human race.! "The elect of God". Only these are eternally loved by God, Secured by Jesus's death and will be raised to eternal life. love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 29, 2014

To Homwardbound. I know ,from our past talks ,that you don't believe in the GOD of the Bible, you have a god of your owe making; I truly hope That God will truly Sanctify and justify you regardless of your FAITH, doctrine. If you are not a truly holy person, you are not born of God. Please read and study the Roman with us and see if God has truly saved you. This is in reponse to post 256. Love to all. Hoffco

The Letter to the Romans...

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