The Letter to the Romans...

[Elin]

Romans 3:19-20

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.​

What Paul's Saying...

(Following the previous point) The context is “how EVERYONE is under sin”, so here Paul explains how the law makes this possible. So the subject of this passage is “The Law and how *IT* specifically functions”; how it works to reveal unrighteousness (i.e. sin) in the world. In Context, this passage has nothing to do with the works of men, positively or negatively. The subject of this thought is The Law's works...not men's works.

[Letting the bible interpret itself; the same phrase "work of the law" is first used in Romans 2:14-16 and shows that The Law itself has a "work"; a job to perform. Other translations of the same phrase say "the requirements of the law" (the law's requirements), and "the deeds of the law" (the law's deeds).]

Alternative:

More Judaizer distortion of Paul's meaning to smuggle "works" into justification by faith,
apart from works.

Since Paul links "works of the law" with "justified" (righteousness), are you saying
the "works of the law" is to perform righteousness?

The law itself performs no work.
The law is powerless, weak and useless (Heb 7:18) to perform any work of righteousness.

The "works of the law" are the deeds of men, in obeying the law.

The purpose of the law is to give knowledge (of sin),
like the purpose of a road sign or street light is to give knowledge (bearing on the driver).

Neither the law nor the road sign/street light perform anything.

"Works of the sign/street light" would be the deeds performed by the drivers,
not by the sign/street light,
just as "works of the law" are the deeds performed by men, not by the law.

Paul says “The Law Speaks” (an action)...and no one is justified because of what The Law *says* (an action).

The road sign/street light also "speaks," and the road sign/street light also "says,"
but no one is held guiltless, in knowingly and deliberately causing harm, because of what
the road sign/street light "says."
(If a little old lady is still in the intersection when the light "speaks" go, I am not held guiltless
because the light "says" go.)
Point: "speaking" and "saying" are not actions of the law, road sign or street light.

The Law has a necessary job to do: to show what is a sin (and why we are ALL unrighteous). So “the works of the law” [i.e.
"The Law's works" or "The Law's requirements" or "The Law’s actions"] hold the world accountable to a Just God.

No. . .verse 3:19 is the continuation and conclusion of Paul's thought
begun in 1:18-32, that all Gentiles are unrighteous,
moving in 2:1-3:8 to all Jews are also unrighteous, as stated in their Scriptures (3:9-19a),

"whatever the law says (vv. 10-18), it says to those who are under the law," (v. 19a), and

then incorporating what he showed in 1:18-32, he
concludes in 3:19b that all mankind is shut up in sin,

"so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Ro 3:19b)

When both natural law (1:18-32, Gentiles) and revealed law (2:1-3:19a, Jews) are taken into account,
the whole world is held accountable to God (Ro 3:19b).

 

[Hoffco]

Elin has a good point in post # 261"the works of the law are the deeds of men obeying he law." That does not save, because men can not obey the laws perfectly.otherwise righteousness would be by the works of the law. But, you both are struggling with the "work of the law' both for the bring of salvation, the law converts. psa,19:7, and to put the laws into our minds,hearts, for holy living, both the lost and the saved benefit . The Holy Spirit uses our preaching of the law ,and men's reading the Bible ,to bring conviction, there is no salvation apart from the H.S.'s conviction of sin. In Rom.2:15 everyone. I have read equates the "work of the law" as a good thing, I believe the H.S. uses the law to convert the sinner. I don't believe the natural conscience is a guide for living ,until we are saved. Yet it, conscience, can be trained by society to be good for people. doing good works for mankind, which , don't save. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin has a good point in post # 261
"the works of the law are the deeds of men obeying he law." That does not save, because men can not obey the laws perfectly.otherwise righteousness would be by the works of the law. But,
you both are struggling with the "work of the law'

Thanks, Hoffco, for your agreement, but actually I am not addressing "work of the law," only "works of the law."

 

[Elin]

Please keep in mind that what Adam had naturally ,he lost. We don't have a natural righteousness like Adam have .the image of God is renewed in the new birth. being renewed in the image of Him who made us in true knowledge of God , righteousness and holiness,
these three things are restored to us in the new birth, "MADE" HOLY, by new birth. Eph. 4:24 Col. 3:10. The Gentile is born again in Romans ch 2. Hoffco

Actually, in Eph 4:24, Col 3:10, Paul states they are to put on the new man,
so he's not talking about their past rebirth.

He is talking about putting off their former behavior (Eph 4:23) and putting on new behavior now,
in accordance with their creation to be like God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24).

 

[homwardbound]

"The gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes,

because it reveals a righteousness from God that is by faith." (Ro 1:16-17)

Grace is not the power of salvation, the gospel is the power of salvation.

We don't gain the power of salvation, we are saved by the righteousness from God that comes
through faith by grace (God's mighty power at work in us).

The gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe.

Yet none of this can be without Christ:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes and thank you Hoffco, when we get to Romans 6:1-6, we will be revealed how the new life comes by Faith, Spirit Baptized, and we are dead to flesh and alive to God, where one can't sin in God, not while walking in the Spirit of truth (God) just as Christ did nothing or said nothing without the lead of the Holy Spirit of Father. We are being taught how to walk as he walked, in total dependence on Father, if we will listen and not manipulate for our own gain

 

[homwardbound]

To Homwardbound. I know ,from our past talks ,that you don't believe in the GOD of the Bible, you have a god of your owe making; I truly hope That God will truly Sanctify and justify you regardless of your FAITH, doctrine. If you are not a truly holy person, you are not born of God. Please read and study the Roman with us and see if God has truly saved you. This is in reponse to post 256. Love to all. Hoffco

Hoffco, God knows who are his and who are not, sorry you see this way as if you got it together and I do not. The Spirit testifies to the person as to whether one is saved or not, and it is God who chooses to have Mercy on me, you or anyone that chooses belief.
Thank you for your concern, but maybe and I say this to me I am concerned with taking care of any board in my eye before I try to help me neighbor to remove the speck in their eye.
We are here to discuss each others thoughts ans look into what each says, discerning error from truth by God himself being our teacher each personally and collectively
[h=3]Hebrews 8:11
[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


I just love you Hoffco as told before just as God does, unconditionally.

 

[homwardbound]

Alternative:

More Judaizer distortion of Paul's meaning to smuggle "works" into justification by faith,
apart from works.

Since Paul links "works of the law" with "justified" (righteousness), are you saying
the "works of the law" is to perform righteousness?

The law itself performs no work.
The law is powerless, weak and useless (Heb 7:18) to perform any work of righteousness.

The "works of the law" are the deeds of men, in obeying the law.

The purpose of the law is to give knowledge (of sin),
like the purpose of a road sign or street light is to give knowledge (bearing on the driver).

Neither the law nor the road sign/street light perform anything.

"Works of the sign/street light" would be the deeds performed by the drivers,
not by the sign/street light,
just as "works of the law" are the deeds performed by men, not by the law.


The road sign/street light also "speaks," and the road sign/street light also "says,"
but no one is held guiltless, in knowingly and deliberately causing harm, because of what
the road sign/street light "says."
(If a little old lady is still in the intersection when the light "speaks" go, I am not held guiltless
because the light "says" go.)
Point: "speaking" and "saying" are not actions of the law, road sign or street light.


No. . .verse 3:19 is the continuation and conclusion of Paul's thought
begun in 1:18-32, that all Gentiles are unrighteous,
moving in 2:1-3:8 to all Jews are also unrighteous, as stated in their Scriptures (3:9-19a),

"whatever the law says (vv. 10-18), it says to those who are under the law," (v. 19a), and

then incorporating what he showed in 1:18-32, he
concludes in 3:19b that all mankind is shut up in sin,

"so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Ro 3:19b)

When both natural law (1:18-32, Gentiles) and revealed law (2:1-3:19a, Jews) are taken into account,
the whole world is held accountable to God (Ro 3:19b).

What is weak is the flesh in obedience, not the Law in itself, but the flesh where all sin is:
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And we all are in unredeemed flesh:
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

So we are to reckon ourselves dead to flesh with Christ at the death of Christ in the flesh, per Romans 6:11 and alive to God through the flesh death
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11
[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[homwardbound]

Elin has a good point in post # 261"the works of the law are the deeds of men obeying he law." That does not save, because men can not obey the laws perfectly.otherwise righteousness would be by the works of the law. But, you both are struggling with the "work of the law' both for the bring of salvation, the law converts. psa,19:7, and to put the laws into our minds,hearts, for holy living, both the lost and the saved benefit . The Holy Spirit uses our preaching of the law ,and men's reading the Bible ,to bring conviction, there is no salvation apart from the H.S.'s conviction of sin. In Rom.2:15 everyone. I have read equates the "work of the law" as a good thing, I believe the H.S. uses the law to convert the sinner. I don't believe the natural conscience is a guide for living ,until we are saved. Yet it, conscience, can be trained by society to be good for people. doing good works for mankind, which , don't save. Hoffco

[h=3]Hebrews 9:8-12
[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: [SUP]9 [/SUP]which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [SUP]10 [/SUP]which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [SUP]12 [/SUP]neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

• Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
  
  

 

[Hoffco]

homwardbound, thanks for post 269, excellent. I want to say more about context. in a verse, a concept, can be put into a context and not be directly related to the context fully. v.4:17 "God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;" in context ie. Sarah's womb, in another context, 1:6-7"called of Jesus Christ" "called to be saints" (born again). 4:17, "God...gives live to the dead..." ie. God gives eternal life to a dead soul by the new heart implantation. ALSO the two thoughts: "work of the law" and "works of the law" ,I think these are two different concepts. The law can do nothing by it self. In society the laws must be taught and enforced, SO, in the k of God. the Holy Spirit must apply the law to the heart, ie, work of the law"; but men do the works of the law. Elin, you have this right, thanks. breakfast is ready. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

A recap of 20 prinicples presented in the first 128 verses of Romans (1:1-5:11) seems in order:

1) Grace was given to Paul to (call, thereby bringing about in others) the obedience of faith. (1:5)

2) Justification = righteousness = declared guiltless, given right standing before God.
The cause of justification (righteousness) is faith only.
The result of justification is sanctification, through the obedience of faith. (1:17, 3:31).

3) God's wrath is shown by giving men over to their sin, by judging (punishing) sin
with increased sin. (1:18)

4) God judges
according to truth, for those who reject truth (2:2),
according to deeds, for those under the law and those under conscience (2:6-22), and
according to the light one has (2:12-15).

5) Jews had the advantage of the word of God and the law, but they were not
the saving advantage of faith. (3:1-2)

6) Though Israel was unfaithful to God, God is faithful to his promise to punish sin, and faithful
to his justice to punish unbelief. (3:3-5)

7) God cannot be unrighteous, for Scripture everywhere testifies that he is righteous
and can do no wrong
(Dt 32:4; 2Ch 19:7; Job 34:10-11, 36:23; Ps 119:137; Eze 18:25; Da 4:37, 9:14). (Ro 3:6)

8) God has shut up all men in sin. (3:19)

9) God is both just in requiring penalty for sin, and the justifier by providing the payment
of the penalty. (3:26)

10) Righteousness through faith, apart from the law, has always been the teaching
of the OT (Ge 15:6). The Jews got it wrong. (3:28)

11) We do not "establish the law" by being made righteous according to it. That is anti-gospel.
We "establish the law" in the NT by establishing the right use of the law,
we don't overthrow the law, we establish its standing by fixing it on the right basis;
i.e., although we cannot be saved by it as a covenant, we submit to it in Christ's two
commandments (Mt 22:37-39), which are subject to the law of grace. (3:31)

12) Salvation is the forgiveness of sin,
which removes our guilt and God's wrath on it at the final judgment.
We are saved from the wrath of God at the final judgment, by forgiveness of our sin,
not by works of obedience. (4:8)

13) Circumcision was not an action (work) required to confirm faith.
Circumcision was a sign only, given as a seal to guarantee one's righteousness by faith,
apart from works. (4:11)

14) Those under the law cannot be heirs to the promise because
inheritance by law keeping makes faith worthless, and
law keeping effectively voids the promise, by disqualifying everyone and producing
only wrath. (4:14-15)

15) The promise can be guaranteed only if it is based on faith, because basing it on
law keeping can result only in wrath, it cannot result in fulfillment of the promise. (4:16)

So righteousness by faith was guaranteed by the sign of circumcision, and
the promise is guaranteed by grace through faith.

16) True saving faith is the conviction of belief, which obeys. (4:20)

17) The resurrection shows that Jesus' sacrifice was accepted as atonement for sin and,
therefore, we have, indeed, been justified (declared guiltless, given right standing before God). (4:25)

18) We are justified by faith, apart from any other actions of obedience, as was Abraham (Ge 15:6).
(5:1)

19) We are saved. . .from the wrath of God at the final judgment, because we have been
justified (declared guiltless, given right standing before God) through faith in Christ's blood (3:25),
which is his atoning death. (5:9)

20) Since God saved us from his wrath through justification (declared guiltless, right standing
before God) by Christ's atoning death, he shall also save (sanctify) us through Christ who ever lives
to intercede for us (Heb 7:25; Ro 8:34). (5:10)

 

[Hizikyah]

4) God judges
according to truth, for those who reject truth (2:2),
according to deeds, for those under the law and those under conscience (2:6-22), and
according to the light one has (2:12-15).

Uhh what? judged by consciousness? Then Hitler is doing well. No, not judged by consciousness.

Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

Romans 2:15, "Since they show that the requirements of the Law are written in their hearts, their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts now accuse or else try to defend them."

"their thoughts now accuse" = I sinned I feel terrible and dont want to do that gain.

"or"

"else try to defend them" = I sinned but you know, the times are different and He cant expect me not to do that.

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh. For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

 

[Elin]

4) God judges
according to truth, for those who reject truth (2:2),
according to deeds, for those under the law and those under conscience (2:6-22), and
according to the light one has (2:12-15).

Uhh what? judged by consciousness? Then Hitler is doing well. No, not judged by consciousness.

Read it again.

And that should be 2:6-11, not 2:6-22.

Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

Romans 2:15, "Since they show that the requirements of the Law are written in their hearts, their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts now accuse or else try to defend them."

 

[Hizikyah]

Uhh what? judged by consciousness? Then Hitler is doing well. No, not judged by consciousness.

Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

Romans 2:15, "Since they show that the requirements of the Law are written in their hearts, their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts now accuse or else try to defend them."

"their thoughts now accuse" = I sinned I feel terrible and dont want to do that gain.

"or"

"else try to defend them" = I sinned but you know, the times are different and He cant expect me not to do that.

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh. For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Read it again.

And that should be 2:6-11, not 2:6-22.

their conscience also bears witness

to know the sin is wrong or justify the sin in their mind.

Dont matter how many times I read it, it wont say we are judged by our consciousness.

 

[Elin]

their conscience also bears witness

to know the sin is wrong or justify the sin in their mind.

Dont matter how many times I read it, it wont say we are judged by our consciousness.

Agreed. . .consciousness is not conscience.

 

[Hizikyah]

Agreed. . .consciousness is not conscience.

AHHHH! you took advantage of my poor typing!



their conscience also bears witness

to know the sin is wrong or justify the sin in their mind.

Dont matter how many times I read it, it wont say we are judged by our conscience.

 

[Elin]

AHHHH! you took advantage of my poor typing!
their conscience also bears witness

to know the sin is wrong or justify the sin in their mind.

Dont matter how many times I read it, it wont say we are judged by our conscience.

Then you do not understand Ro 2:14-15.

 

[Hizikyah]

Then you do not understand Ro 2:14-15.

14 Indeed, when Gentiles who do not
have the Law, do by nature things
required by the Law, they are a law for
themselves, even though they do not have
the Law;
15 Since they show that the requirements
of the Law are written in their hearts,
their conscience also bears witness, and
their thoughts now accuse or else try to
defend them--

please point out where it say we are judged by our conscience?

 

[homwardbound]

their conscience also bears witness

to know the sin is wrong or justify the sin in their mind.

Dont matter how many times I read it, it wont say we are judged by our consciousness.

More like rather one's motive, purpose in what and why they do or did what they do
So this brings home as to why God will have Mercy on whom God will Mercy knowing one's Motive

 

[Elin]

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law.
13 . . .it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous (which no one can do sinlessly).
14 Indeed, when Gentiles who do not
have the Law, do by nature things
required by the Law, they are a law for
themselves, even though they do not have
the Law;
15 Since they show that the requirements
of the Law are written in their hearts,
their conscience also bears witness, and
their thoughts now accuse or else try to
defend them--

please point out where it say we are judged by our conscience?

Okay. . .Gentiles do not have the law, yet they do some things required by the law:
e.g., they care for the sick and elderly, honor their parents, condemn adultery,
because of their natural impulse, not because of the constraint of the Mosaic law (v.14) .

This shows they have some of the requirements of the law written on their hearts (v. 15),
and their conscience bears witness to these laws written on their hearts by either accusing
them when they violate them, or defending them against accusation when they comply with them.

Their moral nature ("when Gentiles do my nature," v.14),
enlightened by their conscience, is their law ("they are a law for themselves," v.14)
by which they will be judged ("all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law," v.12)
they will perish apart from the Mosaic law because they sinned against their conscience,
which is their law,
just as the Jews sinned against their Mosaic law.

Those who are judged according to the law of Moses and
those who are judged according to the law of their conscience
will all be condemned because both groups sinned against their law.