"LGBT RIGHTS"

Jhana · Feb 7, 2014

I would argue that while some of the points you make in this arevalid on their own (for instance, people aren't, or shouldn't be, DEFINED by their homosexuality), the effect which it is used is to say 'LGBT people are just making a big deal out of nothing and they're wrong'. It's not nothing though. People, often christian, equate LGBT people as lesser people. 'Dogs and whoremongerers' comes to mind. Christians are the ones who actively choose to focus on it, and more than all the sins of men, except peodophilia, homosexuality is often denoted the worst, put on the same scale as rapists and sexual sadists, serial killers and child molesters, and these christians often equate that person as being defined by their sin. So while what you say may appease the LGBT community in some ways, it doesn't address the fact that these people don't care for your opinions of their lifestyle, and wish you would actively disengage from trying to tell them they're wrong, and treat them the same as the son you have who refuses to be christian.

These people don't hate God. They hate the people who are so self-righteous they think that these people are the dirt.

God hates the sins you commit equally to them, so I could say that you are equally a whoremongerer and a dog, the same as me if I want to be honest. How does that feel?

Ahh the lovely KJV, such nice words it uses. I quote from the authors, 'the harshest form of God's word is still God's word'. Sort of like saying that calling someone a witch,(the obot, yiddeoni) -an offense which was punishable by death and trialed in a mob kangaroo court not so long ago -is the same as calling someone an 'inquirer to the dead' or one who 'wails and mumbles nonsense'.

While you say disagreement is not malice or is not 'unloving', and you're right, the unloving part is the part that says 'we're better than them and they need our guidance in order to become REAL human beings'.

I doubt you'd ever listen to an LGBT person with some good life advice for you, especially if they came slating your person. What makes you think they'll listen to a christian with any attitude like that?

I have a lesbian friend, she would talk to anyone. Friendly, loving, affectionate and humorous. People think highly of her. As for christians, as soon as they find out she's lesbian what do they do? They treat her like she's an idiot that doesn't understand anything.

That woman does more good in helping others find solace , being compassionate and helfpul, than almost anyone I know. But because she has lesbian desires I guess that counts for nothing, right?

That woman has decided that the issue is between her and God. Nobody else. Not you, not me, not the pastor down the street. Her, and God.

john832 · Feb 7, 2014

Jhana said:

I would argue that while some of the points you make in this arevalid on their own (for instance, people aren't, or shouldn't be, DEFINED by their homosexuality), the effect which it is used is to say 'LGBT people are just making a big deal out of nothing and they're wrong'. It's not nothing though. People, often christian, equate LGBT people as lesser people. 'Dogs and whoremongerers' comes to mind. Christians are the ones who actively choose to focus on it, and more than all the sins of men, except peodophilia, homosexuality is often denoted the worst, put on the same scale as rapists and sexual sadists, serial killers and child molesters, and these christians often equate that person as being defined by their sin. So while what you say may appease the LGBT community in some ways, it doesn't address the fact that these people don't care for your opinions of their lifestyle, and wish you would actively disengage from trying to tell them they're wrong, and treat them the same as the son you have who refuses to be christian.

These people don't hate God. They hate the people who are so self-righteous they think that these people are the dirt.

God hates the sins you commit equally to them, so I could say that you are equally a whoremongerer and a dog, the same as me if I want to be honest. How does that feel?

Ahh the lovely KJV, such nice words it uses. I quote from the authors, 'the harshest form of God's word is still God's word'. Sort of like saying that calling someone a witch,(the obot, yiddeoni) -an offense which was punishable by death and trialed in a mob kangaroo court not so long ago -is the same as calling someone an 'inquirer to the dead' or one who 'wails and mumbles nonsense'.

While you say disagreement is not malice or is not 'unloving', and you're right, the unloving part is the part that says 'we're better than them and they need our guidance in order to become REAL human beings'.

I doubt you'd ever listen to an LGBT person with some good life advice for you, especially if they came slating your person. What makes you think they'll listen to a christian with any attitude like that?

I have a lesbian friend, she would talk to anyone. Friendly, loving, affectionate and humorous. People think highly of her. As for christians, as soon as they find out she's lesbian what do they do? They treat her like she's an idiot that doesn't understand anything.

That woman does more good in helping others find solace , being compassionate and helfpul, than almost anyone I know. But because she has lesbian desires I guess that counts for nothing, right?

That woman has decided that the issue is between her and God. Nobody else. Not you, not me, not the pastor down the street. Her, and God.

All this and God still says that homosexuality is an abomination. (I like to cut to the chase)

Jhana · Feb 7, 2014

john832 said:

If you find everything in the bible that God tells people not to do in the old testament, or that god called an abomination, then tell me whether you have followed all these rules.

The point is, these people don't particularly care what you have to say, since you focus all your energies on this crusade of 'we are better than them' and 'oh dear, no, we can't have homosexuality now, that would be awful', when you are guilty of a multitude of sins of your own.

You don't like people to define you by your sin, and neither do they.

When Jesus said 'take the log from your own eye', he wasn't just talking about having some metaphysical beliefs. When you come to the reality and have entered the kingdom of God, searched within you and know yourself, and see the light shining from God, then I would say that you have the authority to charge and command on other peoples' shortcomings since you have none left to overcome yourself.

As of yet, they don't want to hear you, and you simply don't have the means to make your words so pertinent and consistent that they do hear you, so why speak? It's a great showing of a person's methods for them to be tested by people they just can't help but focus upon and hate.

If these people really care to find the God you offer, there is an abundance of means for them to do it. They don't need your condemnation.

Nephi · Feb 7, 2014

Well, no matter what side you maybe on, being gay sure isn't going to get anyone anywhere! Its just two people that couldn't read the manual screwing each others tail pipes up!

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 7, 2014

It's pretty sad when a member of a cult understands homosexuality better than those who choose to engage in the behavior do themselves. But then, I'm about half convinced that homosexuality has transitioned into a cult.

The Hypocrites of Homosexuality - Orson Scott Card

john832 said:

IDEAtor · Feb 7, 2014

Animus said:

I was curious. So I found this... ''ok here goes. lgbttiqq2sa = “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transexual, interested, queer, questioning, two-spirited and allies''

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 8, 2014

"Imagine for a moment you bake cookies for a living, a seemingly peaceful and pleasant endeavor. One day, you’re approached by some folks who want to know if you would be interested in baking cookies for a Gay Pride rally. You politely decline the offer, delicately express that you would be in conflict with your Christian convictions supporting such an event. You thank them for giving your business consideration, suggest another vendor, and that's that, so you think. A few days later a Sheriffs deputy knocks on your door handing you a subpoena stating that you’re being sued by a group representing the Gay Pride rally for discrimination…

At the hearing, the judge determines that the civil rights of those who entered your store a few short days ago may have been breached. The judge further elaborates that being a Christian does not afford you the right to avoid commercial interests with people, or groups representing them because of their sexual orientation. Other reasons may be acceptable, but to discriminate purely on the grounds of gender, color, religion, or in this case sexual orientation, which may well be a natural born inclination, could be in violation of their rights.

To shut off further litigation, the judge offers you a choice agreeable to the plaintiffs: provide cookies to the rally, or fight it out in court. You face prison, hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and legal costs, and harassment by homosexual extremists should you decline to bake the cookies."

Second Class Citizens: Christian Business Owners Losing the Freedom of Religious Exercise in the Public Square :: iPost

Homosexuals have leveraged government to destroy you, your business, and persecute your family if you do not violate your moral and religious convictions and bake them their cookies. The fact they can go to another baker who does not have such moral and religious convictions against indirectly supporting sexual immorality, bake their own cookies, or open a bakery to serve the LGBT demographic is immaterial to them. You will bake them their cookies or be destroyed.

Welcome to homosexual extremism 101: Make Christians the new Jews of a liberal fascist state called the USA.

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

AgeofKnowledge said:

"Imagine for a moment you bake cookies for a living, a seemingly peaceful and pleasant endeavor. One day, you’re approached by some folks who want to know if you would be interested in baking cookies for a Gay Pride rally. You politely decline the offer, delicately express that you would be in conflict with your Christian convictions supporting such an event. You thank them for giving your business consideration, suggest another vendor, and that's that, so you think. A few days later a Sheriffs deputy knocks on your door handing you a subpoena stating that you’re being sued by a group representing the Gay Pride rally for discrimination…

At the hearing, the judge determines that the civil rights of those who entered your store a few short days ago may have been breached. The judge further elaborates that being a Christian does not afford you the right to avoid commercial interests with people, or groups representing them because of their sexual orientation. Other reasons may be acceptable, but to discriminate purely on the grounds of gender, color, religion, or in this case sexual orientation, which may well be a natural born inclination, could be in violation of their rights.

To shut off further litigation, the judge offers you a choice agreeable to the plaintiffs: provide cookies to the rally, or fight it out in court. You face prison, hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and legal costs, and harassment by homosexual extremists should you decline to bake the cookies."

Second Class Citizens: Christian Business Owners Losing the Freedom of Religious Exercise in the Public Square :: iPost

Homosexuals have leveraged government to destroy you, your business, and persecute your family if you do not violate your moral and religious convictions and bake them their cookies. The fact they can go to another baker who does not have such moral and religious convictions against indirectly supporting sexual immorality, bake their own cookies, or open a bakery to serve the LGBT demographic is immaterial to them. You will bake them their cookies or be destroyed.

Welcome to homosexual extremism 101: Make Christians the new Jews of a liberal fascist state called the USA.

Would you refuse to bake bake cookies if it was to feed a brothel full of starving prostitutes? What about for a prison funday? Or a muslim gathering?

Where I see issue is this; it's baking cookies. It's not sticking on a GOD LOVES LGBT t-shirt and kissing another woman. The baker doesn't engage in the practice. And the rule of her religion is 'don't engage in the practice'. She's done her bit, cookies or no cookies.

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

And as-well as that, the US is an institution of commercial rights. If I walk into a shop wearing a turban (and christians don't agree with islam, generally), does that mean that I shouldn't be allowed to buy a can of juice or order a doughnut?

The shop might be out of doughnut batter. That's a valid reason for not selling me a doughnut. But if the shopkeeper says 'you're wearing a turban so I'm not making you a doughnut', that's a validation of my rights.

IT's that often-worn adage that christian hard-nuts like to use all the time when another religion riles em 'if you don't like our rules, go to a country that doesn't have them'. I think the same applies, really, if we're to be fair.

Nephi · Feb 8, 2014

Most americans are scared to death of what they don't understand. This country is extremely closed off and one sided with everything it does. They don't understand that this world is united not divided, religion being the divider, americans think they have to defend god from the bad guys. Just go watch Bush's victory speech over 10 years old now and we are still fighting extremists over nothing.

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 8, 2014

What you've failed to comprehend is that using the law to imprison and bankrupt moral Americans for refusing to indirectly support immoral behavior is tyranny.

The homosexual extremists targeting Christian bakers across the country or deliberately attempting to set a precedent to imprison and bankrupt all Christian owned small businesses that do not support their immoral behavior.

That is evil and tyrannical and has nothing to do with starving people or prisoners (except for the fact that the homosexuals want to make Christian into prisoners if they don't bake cookies for their events dedicated to their immoral behavior).

Your analogies are, in logic, classified as faulty analogies. I'm sorry that your educational background is so poor that you were not able to properly qualify them as such before offering them as analogies. Here's a classical example of a faulty analogy:

Representative Smith attempts to argue against a bill banning chlordane by comparing it to a bill banning automobiles, but this analogy is very weak. Here are some of the relevant differences:

Banning automobiles would be economically and socially disruptive in a way that banning a single pesticide would not.
There are many alternative pesticides available to replace a banned one, but there are few modes of transportation available which could replace cars.
Automobiles play a significant role in our society, whereas chlordane was used only to prevent termite damage to houses, which is of comparatively minor importance.

As stated free and well fed people who choose to engage in homosexual immorality may go to another baker or any grocery store, bake the cookies themselves, or even open a bakery. They are not analogous to a brothel full of starving prostitutes, prisoners in prison, or a gathering of Muslims. Take a logics class. While you're at it, stop supporting tyranny against the human and religious rights of moral Americans.

Jhana said:

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 8, 2014

The U.S. is a Constitutional republic meant to protect the religious liberty of its citizens. It is not an institution of commercial rights. You're very assertion is false.

Your attempt to correlate religion with sexual immorality is logically flawed. See my previous post.

Jhana said:

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

IN reply to AGEOFKNOWEDGE:

________________________

What you've failed to comprehend is that using the law to imprison and bankrupt moral Americans for refusing to indirectly support immoral behavior is tyranny.

And disallowing free people the same rights to buy goods as others based on their sexual preference isn't? If the christians had their way, I'd imagine homosexuals would be executed or put in jail. Religious ideals of morality are quite wooly. The US has a simple premise; the state instituted right to do whatever you like, as long as it doesn't impact another person's STATE INSTITUTED rights. If you bake cookies for a living, you feed people. It doesn't matter who you feed in this world, regardless of what particular sin they commit.

The homosexual extremists targeting Christian bakers across the country or deliberately attempting to set a precedent to imprison and bankrupt all Christian owned small businesses that do not support their immoral behavior.

And religious extremists would have homosexuals executed given the chance. Again, baking cookies isn't support. It's free-commerce.

That is evil and tyrannical and has nothing to do with starving people or prisoners (except for the fact that the homosexuals want to make Christian into prisoners if they don't bake cookies for their events dedicated to their immoral behavior).

It has everything to do with starving prostitutes and prisoners. Since christians equate homosexuals on a level like prostitutes, peadophiles, murderers and rapists.

Your analogies are, in logic, classified as faulty analogies. I'm sorry that your educational background is so poor that you were not able to properly qualify them as such before offering them as analogies. Here's a classical example of a faulty analogy.

You're attacking me because you can't handle what I've said.

Representative Smith attempts to argue against a bill banning chlordane by comparing it to a bill banning automobiles, but this analogy is very weak. Here are some of the relevant differences:

Banning automobiles would be economically and socially disruptive in a way that banning a single pesticide would not.
There are many alternative pesticides available to replace a banned one, but there are few modes of transportation available which could replace cars.
Automobiles play a significant role in our society, whereas chlordane was used only to prevent termite damage to houses, which is of comparatively minor importance.

Perspective. Get a sense of proportion man. You're talking about logic and comparing cars and pesticides being sold to moral premises and human rights.

As stated free and well fed people who choose to engage in homosexual immorality may go to another baker or any grocery store, bake the cookies themselves, or even open a bakery. They are not analogous to a brothel full of starving prostitutes, prisoners in prison, or a gathering of Muslims. Take a logics class. While you're at it, stop supporting tyranny against the human and religious rights of moral Americans.

Yea they may go to another bakery, of course. But they've got the same rights to buy from THAT bakery as anyone else, whether prostitute, muslim, ex-con or christian. Problem is, a christian'd probably sell to those last four before they'd sell to a homosexual.

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

AgeofKnowledge said:

MY attempt to correlate sexual immorality with religion? lol is this not a christian thread talking about the sexually deviant homosexual you despise so much?

cfultz3 · Feb 8, 2014

Jhana said:

Can/Will you show me where he has said that HE DESPISES HOMOSEXUAL. Otherwise, it is quite presumptuous of you to have made such a bold statement without any prove. And that, in and of itself, makes your point all the more suspicious.

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

cfultz3 said:

Well I don't see him advocating that christians should refuse adulterers, Muslims, Jews, Bahai's, Buddhists, Ouija board players, unmarried couples, liars, thieves, rapists or other people the right to buy cookies, whether it's for a muslim gathering ('supporting' islam), a jewish festival ('promoting' Judaism), a Buddhist temple function ('supporting' Buddhism), a Bahai feast ('supporting' Bahai faith), a group of ex-cons having a party ('promoting' god-knows what), a prison féte, a group of prostitutes who eat at the brothel ('supporting' prostitution).

People only have this issue with homosexuals it seems. The flaw in that is that if you're going to refuse to sell products to people who are homosexual (because they promote or openly engage in something contrary to your religious beliefs), then you should also refuse to sell to someone who promotes or engages in anything contrary to your religious beliefs. That'd include all atheists and practically everyone who isn't christian. And that is where this whole premise falls apart - inconsistency.

Homosexuals go crazy about it and file lawsuits because homosexuals get singled out for sub-par treatment by christians. Other groups, not so much, and nowhere near the same degree.

It happens very rarely in the UK. People here generally understand; you sell your products to anyone who wants to buy them. That's the law.

GregoryC · Feb 8, 2014

Julie can you come up with something fresh?

Veritas · Feb 8, 2014

From the Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Unless, in the pursuit of one's happiness, they violate another's rights. That is when the harm is caused.

No one has the 'right' to force me to sell them something that I do not wish to sell them. That is not a crime.

Jhana · Feb 8, 2014

Veritas said:

First and foremost, on commerce, every civilian citizen has the right to the same goods that another civilian citizen has the right to. They are 'consumer rights'. If I come into your shop and you refure to sell me a bottle of water because I'm asian, that's discriminatory, since you'd sell that bottle of water to a white American, for instance, yet not an asian.

Regardless of someone's choice of lifestyle, race, gender, creed, colour, ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, religious background, or criminal history; if they are a free person walking the street, they have the same consumer rights as anybody else does.

Nobody's forcing you to sell anything. You chose to open a commercial business under United States law and should have understood those laws clearly before you opened.

Veritas · Feb 8, 2014

Jhana said:

First and foremost, on commerce, every civilian citizen has the right to the same goods that another civilian citizen has the right to. They are 'consumer rights'. If I come into your shop and you refure to sell me a bottle of water because I'm asian, that's discriminatory, since you'd sell that bottle of water to a white American, for instance, yet not an asian.

Regardless of someone's choice of lifestyle, race, gender, creed, colour, ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, religious background, or criminal history; if they are a free person walking the street, they have the same consumer rights as anybody else does.

Nobody's forcing you to sell anything. You chose to open a commercial business under United States law.

You don't know common law. And you certainly don't know Biblical Law.

"LGBT RIGHTS"

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