How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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stinger



Then there is nothing for you to debate. If you cannot follow not agree with, my logic ! For its plain and simple what I set forth. Its also called double jeopardy, you know what that is ?

Actually, svedbygrace, I would claim that your 'logic' is not logical. You seem to be locked in some kind of hyper-dispensational system which has blinded you to true biblical logic. I can only pray that you wake up and come to a truer, clearer understanding of scripture.
 
It says that your age is 56? Or is it that I am not saying the words you wish to hear? Or you lack a proper response? Or you think that by saying such that you have refuted? Or you simple do not know how to exchange ideas?

This is the sort of continuous response one would expect from someone who is simply rehashing by coping and pasting from those others chat rooms one can quickly find by goggling your opening statement.

If this is going to be your reply for the most part, may I ask that you at least spell out my whole name to make it seem you took effort in your reply.

Cfultz3, could this be right here what he is after to get under your skin? Just saying, are we to be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove?
 
Cfultz3, could this be right here what he is after to get under your skin? Just saying, are we to be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove?

I really do not know what he is attempting to do. I suppose the wisest thing to do is to reply to the substance and ignore his ill-purposed will. Your opinion?
 
Hello phil36,

I have decided to focus on this claim, for which you had previously cited Romans 3:9-18 as evidence (see your post #164).

In my responses to you, I was trying to get you to explain what you saw in this passage (and others) which leads you to believe the way you do. I was not able to get you to provide any significant explanation, but I think I know how you are reading this passage, so I will address that.

Here is that passage in full (plus some).

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:
There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

None of us disagrees with the importance of this passage, but it is how one reads/understands it which is important. I claim that your understanding is amiss because you do not understand how Paul is using it. For example, where it says, "There is none righteous, no not one," you take that as meaning that there are no righteous persons period - they simply don't exist. But God throughout the bible is very clear that such righteous persons do exist and have always existed. Please do the following, read through Psalms 34-37 and Proverbs 10-12. God is continually comparing and contrasting the righteous with the wicked. Also, Jesus in a number of places, like Matt. 5:45, 13:17,49, and 23:37, declares that such righteous persons have always existed. This should then then cause us to ask, what point is Paul trying to make when He makes this quote (for truly righteous people have always existed)?

If you go back and read through those portions of the Psalms as I asked, afterwards also add to it Psalm 143:2. That Psalm says,

Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight no one living is righteous.

Here is one of the very few places that the Psalmist uses the term 'righteous' (as applied to a human) in an elevated sense. It is elevated in that it is being used to indicate that no one is sinless... not that such servants as himself (do notice the term 'servant') never seek after God or never desire to do good, but in this elevated sense no servant does these things perfectly.

You need to try to understand that Paul is using his quote in Romans 3 in this same elevated sense, and he even brackets his quote with verses 3:9 and 23 indicating this elevated usage, but for some reason many people (especially calvinists) miss that.

So I challenge you to rethink what it is you think this passage is saying, for I can assure you, it neither supports or says what you have been taught.



Hi Stinger,

Thank you for the challenge. I have read your post carefully, and after much consideration find it lacking. But thanks anyway.
 
If faith is not based on the freedom to choose to either believe or not believe, then what exactly is left, if not one's everlasting destination being based on who God has or has not chosen to receive salvation or damnation? If this is the case, then what purpose does His Judgment have, seeing that one's destination has already been chosen for him?

If one does not have a sovereign choice as to whom to follow, then what purpose does the Shepherd serve?

If it is not my choice to believe, then has not God forced me to believe, although Adam and Eve, Satan and a third of the angels, those who did or did not fall in the wilderness and those who will or will not receive the mark of the beast all had/have a choice in the matter? If my faith does not come from my heart, then why would God judge my heart, if that faith came from Him in the first place?

There are so many unanswered questions which remain if we say that we do not freely choose to follow God as Jesus Himself did. We are given no indication from what we know of Jesus in Scripture that He was forced into doing what He did. But, we do have many verses which say that He freely from His heart obeyed God even unto death. It was He was said, "Not my will, but your will be done".


Hi Cfultz,

Your reply above is a good human 'I Am' sovereign response (you even say your choice is sovereign above), However it is not biblical nor can any biblical text support it.


By the way...I believe Faith is from the heart also :).
 
Hi Stinger,

Thank you for the challenge. I have read your post carefully, and after much consideration find it lacking. But thanks anyway.

Hello phil36,

Can you explain from those various texts in my post how/why I am wrong, or are you simply saying that you will stick to the calvinist position no matter how much evidence may come against it? You did say, "thank you for the challenge." Does this mean you found my response challenging? And if so, why do you not address that challenge? And what is this "much consideration" of yours that disproves my post. How, exactly, am I wrong concerning these passages? Please do share this "much consideration" of yours so that I and others can have a chance to examine it.
 
Hi Cfultz,

Your reply above is a good human 'I Am' sovereign response (you even say your choice is sovereign above), However it is not biblical nor can any biblical text support it.


By the way...I believe Faith is from the heart also :).

Did Jesus obey from the heart? Yes!!!

If we believe that faith is from the heart, then how can it also be said that it is non "biblical nor can any biblical text support" the notion that we willfully obey God inasmuch as Jesus, when Jesus said, "Not my will, but your will be done", giving us an understanding that placing one's trust in another (the pinnacle definition of faith) is done not by force but by subjecting one's self to another's will?

If my will is not sovereign, in that I freely choice to be a "servant" to God, then my service to Him has no value, other than to be in service to a tyrant, which we know God not to be, seeing that He permitted, throughout Scripture, people a choice to either follow Him or not. And if that holds true, in that faith is not my choice, then so much of what Jesus told us to do as pertaining to such things as spreading the Gospel, and being a shining light unto the World, had no purpose to have ever been spoken, seeing that such premises of saying that faith is not a choice would nullify such things.

Therefore, if Jesus had a will which He freely submitted to the commands of the Father, then it would not be logical to say that any faith from any one else is not possible, seeing that it says that He was made just like us in all things. If He had a will, would it not also be conclusive that we are also able to willfully follow Him? Let us, therefore, choice to have faith in Him, seeing that it also says that whosoever will believe will receive everlasting life. What a wonderful promise He has left behind for those who would hearken to Him and not that old serpent which lead us astray by our wiliness to hearken to our heart, as God has said, "they always go astray by the heart".

Does it not also tell us that those who did not hearken unto the Voice of the LORD, did so by the stubbornness of their own heart? How then did that stubbornness get there, was it not by their unwillingness to hearken? How then did that change for those of faith? If faith has annulled the willful heart to hearken to the Lord, then would not faith be no more than an implantation of a tyrant who seeks nothing more than menial servants?

There are still so many unanswered questions. But, for brevity, I will cut myself short here....

Chris
 
I really do not know what he is attempting to do. I suppose the wisest thing to do is to reply to the substance and ignore his ill-purposed will. Your opinion?

Yes, not to get caught up in flesh doubts and or try to convince others of what I see, and ask them their points as you have, and when get no discussion to what each other is saying is showing me there is no discussion and flesh gets in the way and tries to force and does nothing but cause division.
All you can do as well as I is lead and be led to the water, yet it is up to us to drink the correct water, which as long as one believes, I know God will teach and those that do beleive will be caused to stand by God as in:
[h=3]Romans 14:4[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

So I just post the love of God what he did for us, praying for us each to come to belief and trust God to do what is needed to be done for each includes me, I am no one, God is everything
 
World in John 3:16 !


John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

False Teachers would tell us that this verse teaches that God so Loved all mankind without exception, but that is not what the verse says or means, far from it. Yes it does state that the World is the object of God's Love, but that's because of to whom Jesus was speaking. The context dictates as much and gives us a guide in understanding who this World is. This is about Jesus being approached by a jew, a Pharisee, even a ruler of the jews. This Pharisee no doubt full of religious pride and ethnic pride by being a jew; and Jesus point in stating that God so Loved the World, was to enlighten nicodemus that God's Purpose of Grace and Salvation Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

That this gracious promise was not circumscribed to the jews; But that this Gospel Promise of Salvation, this Eternal Purpose of Grace In Christ [Salvation is no other Acts 4:12] is for all of God's Chosen Israel of God in the World at large, it extends beyond the jews to the Whole World. God's Love is for all His Elect without distinction, for there is a people amongst the Gentiles for His Names Sake Acts 15:14

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

The words take out, the greek lambanō ek means :

to take, to choose, select That's Election ! Select means:

chosen in preference to another or others; selected.

God's Love is for all His Special Chosen Ones whether jew or Gentile. For there are Sheep to be saved with an Everlasting Salvation out of God's Eternal Love in Christ Jer 31:3, not only from amongst the jews, a Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7 but also from amongst the Gentile's a Selection of Grace Acts 15:14, John 10:16

16 And other sheep [elect] I have, which are not of this fold[jews]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn 11:51-52


51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation[jews];
52 And not for that nation[jews] only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God[gentiles] that were scattered abroad [The World].

The World of Jn 3:16 is simply the World of all God's Sheep, both from among the jews and the Gentiles ! 832
 
Well that's what some do, the Bible calls it NEGLECTING SO GREAT SALVATION.

Hebrews 2:2-4


King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

2 Peter 2:22
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Basically its because God IS LOVE. And love doesn't force people to do what they don't want to do. If God did force us, it would be like rape. We were not created to be ROBOTS. And it isn't like LOVE ME OR ELSE.

If there was no free will, Lucifer would have been created UNABLE to decide to stop obeying God.

But that's why we are all here on this Earth. It is the Theatre so to speak, where God is allowing Satan (once called Lucifer) to demonstrate what it would be like if he were allowed to rule, without God's Government, His Law. It is because God wants for all to see and decide to follow HIM. because they know that His ways are right.

And in the end, all will be compelled to acknowledge that God was right all along.

Revelation 15:3 Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
 
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Its like the story of the Prodigal Son.

The Father loves the Son. He allows him to leave, and to go out and finally realize that it is not much fun going his own way. Finally the Son comes to his senses and decides to go back to his Father.

The Father who loved his Son didn't say NO! you are not allowed to leave! I will force you to love me!

The Son would never have truly loved his Father if that had been the case. He had to find out the truth for himself.
 
Its like the story of the Prodigal Son.

The Father loves the Son. He allows him to leave, and to go out and finally realize that it is not much fun going his own way. Finally the Son comes to his senses and decides to go back to his Father.

The Father who loved his Son didn't say NO! you are not allowed to leave! I will force you to love me!

The Son would never have truly loved his Father if that had been the case. He had to find out the truth for himself.

Not even related to the point !
 
World in John 3:16 !


John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

False Teachers would tell us that this verse teaches that God so Loved all mankind without exception, but that is not what the verse says or means, far from it. Yes it does state that the World is the object of God's Love, but that's because of to whom Jesus was speaking. The context dictates as much and gives us a guide in understanding who this World is. This is about Jesus being approached by a jew, a Pharisee, even a ruler of the jews. This Pharisee no doubt full of religious pride and ethnic pride by being a jew; and Jesus point in stating that God so Loved the World, was to enlighten nicodemus that God's Purpose of Grace and Salvation Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

That this gracious promise was not circumscribed to the jews; But that this Gospel Promise of Salvation, this Eternal Purpose of Grace In Christ [Salvation is no other Acts 4:12] is for all of God's Chosen Israel of God in the World at large, it extends beyond the jews to the Whole World. God's Love is for all His Elect without distinction, for there is a people amongst the Gentiles for His Names Sake Acts 15:14

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

The words take out, the greek lambanō ek means :

to take, to choose, select That's Election ! Select means:

chosen in preference to another or others; selected.

God's Love is for all His Special Chosen Ones whether jew or Gentile. For there are Sheep to be saved with an Everlasting Salvation out of God's Eternal Love in Christ Jer 31:3, not only from amongst the jews, a Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7 but also from amongst the Gentile's a Selection of Grace Acts 15:14, John 10:16

16 And other sheep [elect] I have, which are not of this fold[jews]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn 11:51-52


51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation[jews];
52 And not for that nation[jews] only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God[gentiles] that were scattered abroad [The World].

The World of Jn 3:16 is simply the World of all God's Sheep, both from among the jews and the Gentiles ! 832

So tell us how do we know if we are called or not since you present such doubt, just as the serpent in the Garden did?
You present an unloving God if God did not go to the cross for mankind?

Isaiah 49:24 Who can snatch the prey from the hands of a mighty man? Who can demand that a tyrant let his captives go?

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Christ is the only one that did this in Mercy for us, thanks, maybe it is time for us to change our minds from unbelief to belief?
 
World in John 3:16 ! 2


Now another evidence as to who this World is that God so Loved, its clearly those that are believing. Believing here in this context is not an imperative, an command, something told to do or else, but its that activity describing to what end that He Gave His Only begotten Son, Yes believing on His Son is but the effects of His so Great Love for them. It was the purpose of God that they would become Believers as a result of His Love Gift to them, and He gave all things with Him to produce the Believing effects Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Like Faith for instance ! Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

In case its overlooked, the word given here and the word give in Rom :32 are the very same greek word charizomai:

I.to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify
A.
to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent

B.
to grant forgiveness, to pardon

C.
to give graciously, give freely, bestow
i.
to forgive

ii.
graciously to restore one to another

iii.
to preserve for one a person in peril

So in Giving Christ to those He Loved, He also with Him gave them to believe on His Name for Salvation, this cannot be separated nor denied, scripture substantiates it. Its just not even possible for Christ to have died for one and that person does not become one of those believing as Per Jn 3:16 ! 833
 
Blaspheme of the True God !

Dear savedbygrace, this is what you are and so am I "Saved by grace" and that alone, you had nothing to do with it except to believe God and thank God and neither did I or do I have anything to do with God's Mercy. All that is left is to respknd in thanksgiving and praise
I ask Father for your happiness in all you state to me and have to others about how we are wrong and you are right. I know from your perspective, as where you are looking from, the angle at which you see you are correct, and all you are seeing is from your angle not anyone Else's angle.
When there are four firemen putting out the same fire, each one is putting it out from a different corner, and has a different sight on the situation, yet all four are putting out the fire from their perspective. So who am I to cal, you wrong in what you beleive. and the same goes opposite, praying you see your accusing as wrong, trusting God to sort this out and making noi Judgment of my own, For God will straighten this and all out for us each to stand in him
Romans 14 Thanks for the accusation love you anyway
 
Dear savedbygrace, this is what you are and so am I "Saved by grace" and that alone, you had nothing to do with it except to believe God and thank God and neither did I or do I have anything to do with God's Mercy. All that is left is to respknd in thanksgiving and praise
I ask Father for your happiness in all you state to me and have to others about how we are wrong and you are right. I know from your perspective, as where you are looking from, the angle at which you see you are correct, and all you are seeing is from your angle not anyone Else's angle.
When there are four firemen putting out the same fire, each one is putting it out from a different corner, and has a different sight on the situation, yet all four are putting out the fire from their perspective. So who am I to cal, you wrong in what you beleive. and the same goes opposite, praying you see your accusing as wrong, trusting God to sort this out and making noi Judgment of my own, For God will straighten this and all out for us each to stand in him
Romans 14 Thanks for the accusation love you anyway

Homie,

Remember what you told me. It was good advice. Speak towards the substance and not the darts......
 
World in John 3:16 ! 3


Another clue is given us as to why they are believing in Jn 3:16, its Jn 3:3,8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

They are believing because they are born of the Spirit, for without the New Birth they could not believe; You see without this Spiritual Birth they are nothing but flesh Jn 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Believing on Christ pleases God Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So quite frankly those believing in Jn 3:16 had to be first born again of the Spirit !834