The Letter to the Romans...

[Hoffco]

Listen to Charls wesley's AND CAN IT BE> AMAZING LOVE, "...?Thine eye deffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light, My chains fell off my heart was free: I rose, went forth, and followed Thee ." that was his Reg. experience, when God saved him. "Alive in Him, my living Head" . And the hymn, JESUS PAID IT ALL "Lord, now indeed I find Thy power,and thine alone, Can change the leper's spots, And melt the heart of stone." AND, "Born by the Spirit with life from above, into the family of God; Justifified fully in Calvary's love,oh , what a standing is mine... when at the cross I believed... Heaven came down...." AND on and on ,,..!! Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, You missed to facts that both the WEST. CONF. of FAITH and GRUDEM, teach REG.as the first part of SANCTIFICATION.

Regeneration is the first part of everything.

The original Westminster Confession states at Chp XI, I:

"Those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justifieth*,
not by infusing righteousness into them,
but by pardoning their sin, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous:
not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them (no sanctification), but for Christ's sake alone:
not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or
any other evangelical obedience, to them as righteousness,
but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,**
they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith:
which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.***
* Ro 8:30, 3:24

** Ro 4:5-8; 2Co 5:19, 21; Ro 3:22, 24-25, 27-28;
Tit 3:5, 7; Eph 1:7; Jer 23:6; 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19

*** Ac 10:44; Gal 3:6; Php 3:9; Ac 13:38-39; Eph 2:7-8."

The Confession does not present sanctification before justification.

 

[Elin]

Listen to Charls wesley's AND CAN IT BE> AMAZING LOVE, "...?Thine eye deffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light, My chains fell off my heart was free: I rose, went forth, and followed Thee ." that was his Reg. experience, when God saved him. "Alive in Him, my living Head" . And the hymn, JESUS PAID IT ALL "Lord, now indeed I find Thy power,and thine alone, Can change the leper's spots, And melt the heart of stone." AND, "Born by the Spirit with life from above, into the family of God; Justifified fully in Calvary's love,oh , what a standing is mine... when at the cross I believed... Heaven came down...." AND on and on ,,..!! Love to all, Hoffco

You are confusing regeneration with something else.

The NT order is:

Regeneration-->faith-->justification (position of right standing by forgiveness)-->sanctification-->glory

 

[Hoffco]

In Wayne Grudem's sys,theo. pgs1199 ff the Southren Bap.conv.1925 revived 1963, IV. SALVATION pgs, 1200 ff. "...2. Sanctification ..beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual perfection through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace.." Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, you are listening to these great men of the FAITH. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Your order is ok. but, your definition of Regeneration is wrong. Reg. is the moral , first stage of Sanct. that makes us act GODLY. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Listen to Charls wesley's AMAZING LOVE, "...?Thine eye deffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light, My chains fell off my heart was free: I rose, went forth, and followed Thee ." that was his Reg. experience, when God saved him. "Alive in Him, my living Head" . And the hymn, JESUS PAID IT ALL "Lord, now indeed I find Thy power,and thine alone, Can change the leper's spots, And melt the heart of stone."

 

[homwardbound]

homward. please LISTEN to these verses you quoted in post #458; They are all MORAL ,heart changes, the only word that is positional, is,redemption., the price paid. All the others have to do with moral newness in our lives. Regeneration is a Moral heart change,it is never, never positional.. the only verse in the New T. on a positional sanctification is the verse in Hebrews that states that we are sanctified by the death of Christ. And the verse on a believing spouse "sanctifying" their unbelieveing spouce. Wayne Gruden teach what I teach. and I will show others who do. Have you heard of Ted Tripp ? He wrote SHEPHERDING THE HEART OF A CHILD and his brother Paul Tripp, both teach the radical transformation of regeneration. You are poo pooing regeneration, making it a "straw " man worth of nothing of good for man, only positional. Love to all, Hoffco

My only trust is in God and not man, this includes my own flesh that never pleases God. Therefore "I" :
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The above is what it is Brother

 

[Elin]

the WEST. CONF. of FAITH and GRUDEM, teach REG .as the first part of SANCTIFICATION.

Regeneration is the first part of everything--faith, justification, adoption, sanctification,
not just sanctification.

Your order is ok. but, your definition of Regeneration is wrong.
Reg. is the moral , first stage of Sanct. that makes us act GODLY.

Yes, regeneration is the first stage of everything redemptive.

The original Westminster Confession states -

Chp X - "All those whom God hath predestined unto life, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time,
effectually to call. . ."

Chp X1 - "Those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justifieth. . ."

Chp X11 - "All those that are justified, God vouchsafeth, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ,
to make partakers of the grace of adoption. . .

Chp XIII - They who are effectually called and regenerated (new heart and new spirit created in them)
are farther (progression of redemption) sanctified really and personally. . .
lusts are more and more (progressive work) weakened and mortified. .
.they (themselves) are more and more (progressive work) quickened and strengthened in saving graces,
to the practice of true holiness. . ."

Chp XIV - "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,
is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts (not the work of the person himself). . .

The principle acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving and resting upon Christ alone for
justification, sanctification and eternal life. . ." (note the order of justification and sanctification)

Catechism, #77;

Q. Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?

A. Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification
(not justification joined with sanctification), yet they differ, in that God
in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;
in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;

in the former, sin is pardoned,
in the latter, sin is subdued:

the former doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God,
and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation;
the latter is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any way, but growing to perfection."

Chp XI of the Confession states:

"Those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justifieth*,
not by infusing righteousness into them,
but by pardoning their sin, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous:

not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them (no sanctification), but for Christ's sake alone:

not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or
any other evangelical obedience, to them as righteousness,

but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,**
they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith:
which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.***
* Ro 8:30, 3:24

** Ro 4:5-8; 2Co 5:19, 21; Ro 3:22, 24-25, 27-28;
Tit 3:5, 7; Eph 1:7; Jer 23:6; 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19

*** Ac 10:44; Gal 3:6; Php 3:9; Ac 13:38-39; Eph 2:7-8."

The Confession does not present sanctification before justification.

 

[Elin]

The NT order is:

Regeneration-->faith-->

justification (position of right standing by forgiveness)-->sanctification-->glory

Your order is ok. but, your definition of Regeneration is wrong. Reg. is the moral , first stage of Sanct. that makes us act GODLY.

So justification comes before sanctification, as presented in the NT?

 

[Hoffco]

Your order in which God applies salvation to the sinner is correct; as you stated, Regeneration come before everything. Before faith repentance Justification sanct. con't, the gradual growth, working out what God has already put into our hearts by regeneration. which is the first stage of sanctification, the principle of holiness of life. Reg. causes the sinner to repent ,trust and obey by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord and thus be justified by faith. These are regeneration verses: The first stage of Sanct, Jh.1:13; 3:3&5&21; 5:21 Rom.1:6-7,16; 2:29; 4:17; 5:19-21; 6:1-6,22-23; 8:2; 1Cor.1:2,26,30; 6:11; 2Cor.5:17; Tit.5:5; Gal.2:20. As you study all these verses, you should see how complete and full the work of Regeneration is; it prepares the child of God with all he needs for life and godliness. The added blessing of justification has nothing to do in the life of holiness of the christian. The holiness works of the child of God perfects his faith and in the end ,the believer will be justified by grace, faith and works. With out the life of holiness, begin in Reg. the faith would die and be a mockery to God; as the millions of false christians are today a mockery to the holy God we serve. and they will go to Hell. according to Gal 6:7-10. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

The NT order is:

Regeneration-->faith-->
justification (position of right standing by forgiveness)-->sanctification-->glory

Your order in which God applies salvation to the sinner is correct; as you stated, Regeneration come before everything. Before faith repentance Justification sanct. con't, the gradual growth, working out what God has already put into our hearts by regeneration. which is the first stage of sanctification, the principle of holiness of life. Reg. causes the sinner to repent ,trust and obey by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord and thus be justified by faith. These are regeneration verses: The first stage of Sanct, Jh.1:13; 3:3&5&21; 5:21 Rom.1:6-7,16; 2:29; 4:17; 5:19-21; 6:1-6,22-23; 8:2; 1Cor.1:2,26,30; 6:11; 2Cor.5:17; Tit.5:5; Gal.2:20. As you study all these verses, you should see how complete and full the work of Regeneration is; it prepares the child of God with all he needs for life and godliness. The added blessing of justification has nothing to do in the life of holiness of the Christian. The holiness works of the child of God perfects his faith and in the end ,the believer will be justified by grace, faith and works. With out the life of holiness, begin in Reg. the faith would die and be a mockery to God; as the millions of false christians are today a mockery to the holy God we serve. and they will go to Hell. according to Gal 6:7-10.

"Your order in which God applies salvation to the sinner is correct;"

In that order, justification preceded sanctification.

"Reg. causes the sinner to repent ,trust and obey by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord and thus be justified by faith."

"The added blessing of justification has nothing to do in the life of holiness of the Christian."

"in the end ,the believer will be justified by grace, faith and works."

This is not coherent.

 

[faroukfarouk]

"Your order in which God applies salvation to the sinner is correct;"

In that order, justification preceded sanctification.

"Reg. causes the sinner to repent ,trust and obey by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord and thus be justified by faith."

"The added blessing of justification has nothing to do in the life of holiness of the Christian."

"in the end ,the believer will be justified by grace, faith and works."

This is not coherent.

Elin: What do you think of the aspect of sanctification that is ongoing? i.e, those already set apart in principle but daily seeking to live sanctified lives? this follows regeneration and justification, doesn't it? (I'm not talking about sanctification positionally now, but practically.)

Blessings.

 

[Elin]

Elin: What do you think of the aspect of sanctification that is ongoing? i.e, those already set apart in principle but
daily seeking to live sanctified lives? this follows regeneration and justification, doesn't it? (I'm not talking about
sanctification positionally now, but practically.)

Blessings.

Absolutely.

Where no practical sanctification is found, there is no justification, there is only counterfeit faith
(Mt 7:21-23).

Justification and sanctification are inseparably linked.

 

[homwardbound]

Regeneration is the first part of everything--faith, justification, adoption, sanctification,
not just sanctification.


Yes, regeneration is the first stage of everything redemptive.

The original Westminster Confession states -

Chp X - "All those whom God hath predestined unto life, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time,
effectually to call. . ."

Chp X1 - "Those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justifieth. . ."

Chp X11 - "All those that are justified, God vouchsafeth, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ,
to make partakers of the grace of adoption. . .

Chp XIII - They who are effectually called and regenerated (new heart and new spirit created in them)
are farther (progression of redemption) sanctified really and personally. . .
lusts are more and more (progressive work) weakened and mortified. .
.they (themselves) are more and more (progressive work) quickened and strengthened in saving graces,
to the practice of true holiness. . ."

Chp XIV - "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,
is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts (not the work of the person himself). . .

The principle acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving and resting upon Christ alone for
justification, sanctification and eternal life. . ." (note the order of justification and sanctification)

Catechism, #77;

Q. Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?

A. Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification
(not justification joined with sanctification), yet they differ, in that God
in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;
in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;

in the former, sin is pardoned,
in the latter, sin is subdued:

the former doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God,
and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation;
the latter is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any way, but growing to perfection."

Chp XI of the Confession states:

"Those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justifieth*,
not by infusing righteousness into them,
but by pardoning their sin, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous:

not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them (no sanctification), but for Christ's sake alone:

not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or
any other evangelical obedience, to them as righteousness,

but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,**
they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith:
which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.***
* Ro 8:30, 3:24

** Ro 4:5-8; 2Co 5:19, 21; Ro 3:22, 24-25, 27-28;
Tit 3:5, 7; Eph 1:7; Jer 23:6; 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19

*** Ac 10:44; Gal 3:6; Php 3:9; Ac 13:38-39; Eph 2:7-8."

The Confession does not present sanctification before justification.

Waht about these verses standing in the Faith that by Christ alone in his death we are made Holy, what improvement can be done on this?
It either is or it is not, yet Paul is a minister of this truth, Mystery, beyond Human flesh comprehending it. So without the Spirit of God one does not see it is all God and none of us. If God is not getting all the credit, then there is error mixed in with truth.
Just take a water glass full of water and drop one drop of ink in that glass of water and is it tainted?
The flesh fights the Spirit of God and has been since day one in trying to say look at me I am Holy, when only God is the Father of Christ. We are nothing more that invited to be partakers as Christ is
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[SUP][a][/SUP] your evil behavior. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

By Faith, (belief) God the Father through the Son has past tense done it all for you personally to be able in Spirit walk as Son walked, by the Spirit of Father alone get it? Praying so. Ther is no second guessing that keeps us from the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God does love us this deeply
Romans 5:6 [ Christ in Our Place ] For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

We are by Christ reconciled to Father, so ne ye reconciled then and trust God to do in you waht you can't or have npot been able to do in self, yet trying very hard to not do, you do anyway and just can't grasp why?

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Or haven't we noticed yet, that even in wanting to not want to sin in our flesh, the mere thought of not sinning causes us to sin for flesh is still weak, we are in unredeemed bodies, therefore reckon this:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Elin]

Waht about these verses standing in the Faith that by Christ alone in his death we are made Holy, what improvement can be done on this?
It either is or it is not,

No, it is not either/or, it is both/and.

yet Paul is a minister of this truth, Mystery, beyond Human flesh comprehending it. So without the Spirit of God one does not see it is all God and none of us. If God is not getting all the credit, then there is error mixed in with truth.
Just take a water glass full of water and drop one drop of ink in that glass of water and is it tainted?
The flesh fights the Spirit of God and has been since day one in trying to say look at me I am Holy, when only God is the Father of Christ. We are nothing more that invited to be partakers as Christ is
Colossians 1:21-23

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[SUP][a][/SUP] your evil behavior. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death
to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
[SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1Co 1:2 - "to those sanctified (imparted holiness, positional) and called to be holy
(present on-going work). . ."

Eph 1:4 - "he chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless
(on-going work) in his sight. . ."

Eph 5:25-27 - "Christ gave himself up for he church to make her holy, cleansing her by
the washing with water through the word (on-going work), and to present her to himself
as a radiant church without stain or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."

Holiness is both imparted (1Co 1:2) because of Christ, as the result (not basis) of God's choosing,

as well as the believer's personal practical sanctification through the obedience of faith (1Co 1:2;

Eph 1:4, 2:25-27), which is the meaning of to "continue in your faith, established and firm."

Since they are one and the same holiness, where no practice of holiness is found,

there has been no choosing by God and rebirth, which imparts holiness.

 

[Hoffco]

In post 475 it is clearly stated in the west. conf. of Faith: That regeneration is before justification , justification must flow out of regeneration. Regeneration and or sanctification can not flow out of justification. The new life of the saint must come from his transformation of heart which is the result of regeneration, then out of the regenerated heart repentance and faith comes for justification and from regeneration, the holy desires flow for the new Christian life of sanctification . A new way of life cannot come from a new position in Christ, Justification is the imputation of righteousness; whereas regeneration is the implantation of a new heart of holiness into the heart of the sinner. With out the transformation of regeneration , there is nothing in the sinner to make him desire a holiness of life or to give him the power to live the holy way of life. PLEASE read the conf. carefully. LOve to Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Your order in which God applies salvation to the sinner is correct; as you stated, Regeneration come before everything. Before faith repentance Justification sanct. con't, the gradual growth, working out what God has already put into our hearts by regeneration. which is the first stage of sanctification, the principle of holiness of life. Reg. causes the sinner to repent ,trust and obey by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord and thus be justified by faith. These are regeneration verses: The first stage of Sanct, Jh.1:13; 3:3&5&21; 5:21 Rom.1:6-7,16; 2:29; 4:17; 5:19-21; 6:1-6,22-23; 8:2; 1Cor.1:2,26,30; 6:11; 2Cor.5:17; Tit.5:5; Gal.2:20. As you study all these verses, you should see how complete and full the work of Regeneration is; it prepares the child of God with all he needs for life and godliness. The added blessing of justification has nothing to do in the life of holiness of the christian. The holiness works of the child of God perfects his faith and in the end ,the believer will be justified by grace, faith and works. With out the life of holiness, begin in Reg. the faith would die and be a mockery to God; as the millions of false christians are today a mockery to the holy God we serve. and they will go to Hell. according to Gal 6:7-10. Love to all, Hoffco

I forgot a few verses on Regeneration: Here are more, I hope you are seeing HOW great the work of regeneration is in God's plan of salvation. Add these verses to the above,: 1Thess.5:24; 2Thess.2:13; 2Tim.1:9 James 1:18; 1Pet.1:2-3,23, 2:2-3; 1Jh.2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,18 Regeneration is the bases of all the Christian life, here on earth. We could live the christian life without justification, but you can not live the christian life without regeneration. So, ask yourself, WHY, are so called Christians having no success in living a holy life ? It is because they are still lost in sin, no new birth! The evangelist never tells a sinner how to get the new birth. You must Seek God's converting power and not be content until He changes your heart. No regeneration, no justification. as Jesus said, " what is easier, to say, your sin be forgiven, or to say, arise, tale up your bed and walk. SO, we can not know our sins are forgiven unless we put off the old man and put on the new man. As the book of 1Jh. say we know we know God, when we love the brethren. No fruit, no abiding,. No abiding no fruit. LOve to all Hoffco

 

[Kerry]

Aahhh my cup o tea Romans. I wish I had seen this thread earlier. Romans is about the cross and how it applies to our everyday life and how it applies to our sanctification. We can only live by Gods moral code by focusing our faith on the work of the cross and by doing so the Holt Spirit has the legal right to conform us to the word of God and not of our own doing but By the Spirit. It's not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith The Lord. Amen