More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

[Jackson123]

2Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."



"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him,


The Lord only coming twice. First coming and second coming.

The word coming of our Lord in the sentence above, mean the second coming not the first coming.
Than that sentence above said and our assembling to meet him.

Mean both the second coming and rapture(assembling to meet Him) will not happen before man of lawlessness /Antichrist reveal.

That mean Antichrist first/tribulation first than rapture.

 

[Hashe]

You people have no idea about tribulation.
Talk to North Korean Christians, or Somali Christians and then decide if what they are living through now is worse than some supposed great tribulation.
Get a global perspective on Christianity!

 

[Jackson123]

You people have no idea about tribulation.
Talk to North Korean Christians, or Somali Christians and then decide if what they are living through now is worse than some supposed great tribulation.
Get a global perspective on Christianity!

That mean you believe Tribulation first than Rapture? And tribulation happening now.

 

[Hashe]

That mean you believe Tribulation first than Rapture? And tribulation happening now.

You think they aren't under tribulation?
Rapture isn't in the bible. It was a doctrine created about 100 years ago.

 

[Jackson123]

That mean you believe Tribulation first than Rapture? And tribulation happening now.

Yup they are in tribulation. I just want to confirm but look like they will be another global tribulation when the man of lawlessness reveal and for seven years.

 

[Elin]

By comparing Scripture with Scripture and by rightly dividing it, it is clear that the Holy Bible does teach a pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ.

Please present those Scriptures, that I may examine them for any assumptions.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Please present those Scriptures, that I may examine them for any assumptions.

There is the C-word.

Context. Who is the Lord Jesus talking about in Matthew 24? Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thessalonians 4? A lot hinges on one's assumptions regarding who is in view? and whether the particular aspect of the Lord's coming in view ties in with the Old Testament's references to the day of the Lord or not.

A broader interpretational aspect is also: does the Lord really reveal the mystery of the church in the Old Testament?

Blessings.

 

[watcher2013]

It is becoming more apparent to me and I am sure others, that one of the reasons why the post-tribbers are persistent in trying to prove that somehow the Christians (members of Christ's body) will somehow go through the Great tribulation is because they feel that we who believe the Pre-trib. Rapture Doctrine are, (in their minds) just trying to avoid persecution. But when one studies the word of God and sees what it says and teaches about the time of Jacob's trouble, it will become clear that the time of Jacob's trouble is not about persecution, at least not generally.

But that the time of Jacob's trouble is really about the wrath of the Lamb. It is God's wrath that will be poured upon the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble (the 7 year tribulation period).


Here is Scripture that testifies to this fact:



Revelation 6:16-17

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Revelation 11:18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




Revelation 15:1

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.




Revelation 15:7

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.




Revelation 16:1

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.





Revelation 16:15-21

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.




Throughout the book of Revelation; we see the wrath of God being mentioned. It should be clear to any student of the Bible that the time of Jacob's trouble is mainly about the wrath of God.


And notice that the verse first mention of wrath in the book of Revelation, it is referring to the wrath of the Lamb. Who is the Lamb? It is the Lord Jesus Christ.


It is the wrath of the Lord Jesus Christ that causes the wicked to cry out to the mountains and rocks for them to fall on them and to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16-17).


And to think that there are Christians out there who seriously think that God would pour out His wrath upon the Body of His own Son? It makes no sense.


Why would God pour out His wrath upon the Body of Christ?


The Bible several times clearly says that we (born again Christians) have been delivered and saved from the wrath to come:


Romans 5:9

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.




1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.





1 Thessalonians 5:9-11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.




When the Scriptures declare that we have been delivered from the wrath to come, I believe there is a dual application for us.

IN that it is not only teaching us that we have been delivered from the wrath of God in the Lake of Fire, but also from the wrath of God in the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation).


1 Thessalonians 5:9 clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. The context being God's wrath. And again, while it is referring to the wrath of God in Hell and the Lake of Fire, it is also referring to the wrath of the Lamb in the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).


This should be very clear folks. Each time the Bible says that we have been delieverd and saved from wrath, the context is always the wrath of God.


And not the wrath of men. In this life, we will experience the wrath of men, and also the wrath of Satan. After all; at this present time, Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2) and he is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). Furthermore, the perseuction which the Christian martrys have faced down through the centuries from the Papacy and Roman catholic church (the mother of harlots/whore of Babylon) was a result of both the wrath of Satan and also the wrath of men (evil, wicked men controlled by Satan at his will).


I have shared this video teaching before, but it is very important to share it again, especially in this post because it further shows the truth of what I just shared:


[video=youtube;nXZU0OlXAQQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXZU0OlXAQQ[/video]

Published on May 13, 2012
http://www.eleventhhournews.com

The Church of Jesus Christ faces persecution and that INCLUDES the American Churches.

This video will clarify that fact that while the Pre-Tribulation Rapture guarantees that God will not pour out His wrath on believers, the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT have anything, at all, to do with persecution that has taken place in the lives of believers since 30 AD and right up until this present day.

http://www.kjvbiblebelievers.com


[HR][/HR]
So for those who are still struggling to believe the Bible Doctrine of the Pre-trib. Rapture, one of the main thigns you must understand is that the Great tribulation is not about persecution, but that it is mainly about the wrath of God through a series of seven vial, seven trumpet, and seven seal judgments.

And collectively, all 21 of these Judgments are from God.

God said in His word that He saved and delivered us from the wrath to come. He delivered us from His wrath (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10).


And so for those who continue to persist in trying to convince the Body of Christ that they are going to have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation) after reading this and seeing what the Scriptures clearly say on this matter, those same people are basically calling God a liar. And that is very serious. I believe that God takes that very seriously.


Therefore; for those of you who are still denying the Bible Doctrine of the Pre-trib. Rapture and who have been mocking it, understand that if you do not repent of your error, and continue in teaching the false doctrine that somehow the Body of Christ will have to go through the 7 year tribulation period, well then be assured of this one thing, you will answer to God for it. You will give account of yourself.

All the verses you gave talks about the"wrath" of God and nothing about "tribulation".
not only you divide the word but change/add your words in it.

Would you agree that you are a pre-wrath rather than a pretrib.

 

[watcher2013]

There is the C-word.

Context. Who is the Lord Jesus talking about in Matthew 24? Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thessalonians 4? A lot hinges on one's assumptions regarding who is in view? and whether the particular aspect of the Lord's coming in view ties in with the Old Testament's references to the day of the Lord or not.

A broader interpretational aspect is also: does the Lord really reveal the mystery of the church in the Old Testament?

Blessings.

Matthew 24 began about the destruction of the temple.

*[[Mat 24:1-3]] KJVv And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. v 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. v 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Of all the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24, what signs did he gave regarding the destruction of the temple?

 

[john832]

not exactly, jesus explains all the things to happen before he returns and in this he speaks of ppl being taken while the other left. the scary part is most of mathew 24 has already happened

Naw, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

 

[Elin]

There is the C-word.
Context. Who is the Lord Jesus talking about in Matthew 24? Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thessalonians 4? A lot hinges on one's assumptions regarding who is in view? and whether the particular aspect of the Lord's coming in view ties in with the Old Testament's references to the day of the Lord or not.

Thanks.

However, Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54, 11:24; 1Co 15:52 locate the resurrection of the church in 1Th 4:16
with the trumpet call of God, which Biblically is the summons to judgment (Hos 58-9, 8:1; Am 2:1-2;
Zep 1:15-17; see Ex 19:16-17)
and in the last day, which Biblically is Judgment Day.

Scripture locates the resurrection of the church at the Final Judgment.

Ro 8:19-21 locates the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) with the liberation of nature
from decay (new earth), which occurs after the ravages of the tribulation.

So Scripture locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth.

In the above, Scripture locates the resurrection after the ravages of the tribulation and
at the final judgment, and also locates the rapture with that resurrection in 1Th 4:16-17.

So Scripture locates the rapture with the resurrection at the end of time.

1Th 5:2-6 parallels Mt 24:42-44 and Lk 21:34-36, which gospel accounts both refer to Jesus'
coming at the Judgment (Mt 24:30-31). Therefore, 1Th 5:2-6 locates the rapture at the Judgment.
(Mt 24 refers to the Second coming at the Final Judgment at the end of time.)

So Scripture locates the rapture at the Final Judgment.

And if Rev 20:4-5 is literal, then it locates the first resurrection (20:4) after the tribulation of chps 6-19,
which precludes any resurrection before the tribulation.

So if Rev is literal, the first resurrection is after the tribulation.

So Scripture specifically locates the resurrection of the church at the end of time, at the Final Judgment,
and with the new earth.

A broader interpretational aspect is also:
does the Lord really reveal the mystery of the church in the Old Testament?

The mystery of the church is that through the gospel, the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel
(Eph 3:6), members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise of Jesus Christ (Ge 3:15).

And this mystery goes all the way back to Ge 12:3,
in the promise that all peoples (Gentiles) on earth would be blessed through Abraham.
That blessing is Jesus Christ, in whom all nations are blessed in his body, the church, his bride and wife (Rev 21:9).

There are likewise other references to the Gentiles being brought into the people of God, which is the church.

So these are the specifics which I find when I examine the Scriptures.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank-you, Elin, but I certainly don't see the church in Genesis, Exodus, Hosea, Amos, and Zephaniah.

The church is an Ephesian mystery, parenthetical to God's dealings with Israel on earth; and its timescales reflect it. Israel is an earthly people; the church is a heavenly people. One could go on.

 

[Elin]

Thank-you, Elin, but I certainly don't see the church in Genesis, Exodus, Hosea, Amos, and Zephaniah.

The church is an Ephesian mystery, parenthetical to God's dealings with Israel on earth; and its timescales reflect it. Israel is an earthly people; the church is a heavenly people. One could go on.

I am committed to not crossing swords with you so, having presented Gen,
I will reply only to Amos and Hosea,

where James states the promise (Am 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself
a people from the Gentiles (Ac 15:13-18); i.e., the church of both believing Jews and Gentiles; and

where both Paul and Peter state the promise of God to make Israel his people again (Hos 2:23)
is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Ro 9:25-26; 1Pe 2:10); i.e., in the church of both believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Elin]

I certainly don't see the church in Genesis, Exodus, Hosea, Amos, and Zephaniah.

P.S. to the above (post #33).

Keeping in mind that the Jews did not see the Messiah in Isa 52:13-15, 53:1-12, and still do not,
but he is there, nevertheless.

So, just because one does not see it in Gen, Hosea, Amos or Zephaniah does not mean it is not there.

 

[john832]

I am committed to not crossing swords with you so, having presented Gen,
I will reply only to Amos and Hosea,

where James states the promise (Am 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself
a people from the Gentiles (Ac 15:13-18); i.e., the church of both believing Jews and Gentiles; and

I really don't want to get into our usual pissing match, we have been in agreement on several things as of late, but Acts 15 is about a future time...

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Not now but at His return.

where both Paul and Peter state the promise of God to make Israel his people again (Hos 2:23)
is fulfilled in the Gentiles (Ro 9:25-26; 1Pe 2:10); i.e., in the church of both believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[faroukfarouk]

P.S. to the above (post #33).

Keeping in mind that the Jews did not see the Messiah in Isa 52:13-15, 53:1-12, and still do not,
but he is there, nevertheless.

So, just because one does not see it in Gen, Hosea, Amos or Zephaniah does not mean it is not there.

I'm talking about dispensationally. Ephesians speaks of the church as a mystery. God's direct dealings with His earthly people are in suspension prior to the church being 'caught up'.

 

[Elin]

I'm talking about dispensationally. Ephesians speaks of the church as a mystery. God's direct dealings with His earthly people are in suspension prior to the church being 'caught up'.

Keeping in mind that mystery is simply what was not fully revealed before, as it is now.

Mystery does not mean incomprehensible or hard to understand, only that it was not fully revealed before.

The sacrificial atoning death of Christ, God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ, especially the Jews

and Gentiles in the NT church, the incarnation of Christ in a virgin, the change that will take place at the

resurrection are also mysteries, not hard to comprehend, just not fully revealed until the NT.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Keeping in mind that mystery is simply what was not fully revealed before, as it is now.

Mystery does not mean incomprehensible or hard to understand, only that it was not fully revealed before.

The sacrificial atoning death of Christ, God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ, especially the Jews and Gentiles in the

NT church, the incarnation of Christ in a virgin, the change that will take place at the resurrection are also

mysteries, not hard to comprehend, just not fully revealed until the NT.

...but the church was not just about to emerge as the complete fulfillment of what the Jews were looking for.

 

[Elin]

...but the church was not just about to emerge as the complete fulfillment of what the Jews were looking for.

I don't understand what you are saying in "complete fulfillment of what the Jews were looking for."

It matters not what the Jews were "looking for," it matters only what God wills.

God willed that his Christ would be the atoning sacrifice only for those who believed in his Christ.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't understand what you are saying in "complete fulfillment of what the Jews were looking for."

It matters not what the Jews were "looking for," it matters only what God wills.

God willed that his Christ would be the atoning sacrifice only for those who believed in his Christ.

Oh I agree with what you say about the atoning sacrifice.

But where Jewish readers of the Old Testament looked for events to do with the day of the Lord, this had nothing to do with the rapture of the church (in the air, for a heavenly people of a revealed New Testament mystery), in distinction from the day of the Lord, a manifestation on earth of God's power and glory in connection with an earthly people.