The Letter to the Romans...

[Karraster]

[h=3]I'm going to press on with chapter 8. I wish the author of the thread would come back, he had good insight and presentation.
feel free to join in..

Romans 8[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


With this chapter, Paul now concludes his midrash on Torah (begun at 6:1). Beginning around verse 28, and continuing through the following chapters 9-11, the discussion turns back to Israel. Paul discusses Israel's continued election, their stumbling, and the gentiles' relationship to Israel and the faith of Israel.

Paul describes the life of a believer in Yahshua Messiah:

• Having "peace" (as opposed to enmity) with God (chapter 5)
• A life characterized by sanctification through Torah observance (chapter 6)
• Being free from the Torah's condemnation (chapter 7)
• Marked by the indwelling of God's Spirit (chapter 8)
• He identifies a "son" as one who serves God from love (via the positive commandments) and not from fear (condemnation of the negative commandments).

Paul again explains why believers are no longer under the Torah's condemnation – once more showing that the issue is not "no longer following Torah," but only the aspects of condemnation.

Just as the annual Yom Kippur sacrifice had to be "accepted in faith" by the individual Jew, in order for his sins to be forgiven, the same applies to accepting God's salvation through His sacrificed Messiah - the perfect and final Yom Kippur sacrifice.

No condemnation …" (katakrima = judgment), means having the freedom to serve God while still living in the flesh. The person baptized into Yahshua’s death & resurrection has been "freed" from serving his Yetzer Hara by God’s gift of righteousness (justification) in Yahshua (chap. 6). The believer is still confronted with this evil inclination (i.e., chapter 7), but is no longer under God’s condemnation, due to the sacrifice of Yahshua.

Paul already explained that God's Torah is a Torah of spirit (which is the same as the "Torah of Messiah" - Galatians 6:2) and that there is also a "false torah" of sin & death - ( Romans 7:21-23).

God's Torah given through Moses (properly understood and applied) is NOT equated to the "law of sin and death." The Torah of the spirit, IS the Torah given through Moses, that points to Messiah, who in turn points us to Torah (Matthew 5:17-21). Yahshua is both the giver of Torah and the embodiment of the Torah (i.e., the "Word" made "flesh" - John, chapter 1).

God does not change. God says that the Torah He has given, is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing to those who follow it in faith (i.e., Hebrews 4:2), and a curse to those who do not
Deuteronomy 30:1 and 6

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
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For those who say that no one could ever "follow the Law" and that we had to "wait until the Messiah," this verse (and others) creates a problem. God says that it is NOT too hard to follow His Torah. He also held them accountable and punished them when they failed. If it was never possible to follow Torah (as many today teach), and God still demanded obedience (as the Bible clearly shows), then this would make God the supreme sadist.

 

[RedTent]

So did he see Psalms 100:4 entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise because he saw he can be perfect or because he saw a far off the perfection through trust in God and Son that God was going to give us and now has by Chirst

The difference between Law and grace. is like oil and water they just do not mix

If grace and law have nothing to do with each other then every single person in this world could have unmerited favor with God apart from anything they thought or did. We would have no way to put on Christ, for law gives us the guidelines Christ uses, and they would be gone. We could not walk in the spirit, for the law tells us how to do that. There would be no love, for it is the base of all law, and with law gone, love would have to go. It would be a terrible world, one like scripture tells us of for the last days.

In fact, the teaching against law is a precursor to the last days.

 

[Karraster]

If grace and law have nothing to do with each other then every single person in this world could have unmerited favor with God apart from anything they thought or did. We would have no way to put on Christ, for law gives us the guidelines Christ uses, and they would be gone. We could not walk in the spirit, for the law tells us how to do that. There would be no love, for it is the base of all law, and with law gone, love would have to go. It would be a terrible world, one like scripture tells us of for the last days.

In fact, the teaching against law is a precursor to the last days.

Good post! The law is a hedge of protection around us if we let it be. It is out of love that our Father gave it. Imagine a world where God's law was followed! There would be no need for security systems, locks of any kind, frankly most lawyers would have to find other work!

God is not a task master. Man is the task master making thousands of laws, laws on top of laws...

Murmuring against God's laws is not good. To say God broke His covenants with us is a gross misunderstanding of the Word.

Paul tried to make it clear, the law is good, and the desire to keep it, love God. With Messiah as our Salvation and guide, He is always with us to lead us not into temptation, if we would only ask.

 

[Hoffco]

I am saddened that Yahshua has left us and started a new tread on how Christians can live sinless lives, He claims to have lived without sin for so many weeks. I am behind him in this personal holiness endever and I am praying for his success. I am also pushing for perfection ,even as the Apostle Paul did; Yet I know that I fall in to a sin sooner or latter and need forgiveness again. I think He can pursue that teaching here on this thread with Paul's help of Rom. 6-12. I think romans 7 is a very difficult passage for Yahshua to tackle. I am still challenging Him to come back and let us help him . Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

I am saddened that Yahshua has left us and started a new tread on how Christians can live sinless lives, He claims to have lived without sin for so many weeks. I am behind him in this personal holiness endever and I am praying for his success. I am also pushing for perfection ,even as the Apostle Paul did; Yet I know that I fall in to a sin sooner or latter and need forgiveness again. I think He can pursue that teaching here on this thread with Paul's help of Rom. 6-12. I think romans 7 is a very difficult passage for Yahshua to tackle. I am still challenging Him to come back and let us help him . Love to all, Hoffco

That explains a lot.

 

[Hoffco]

To Karracter. I am well trained Bible teacher of 8 yrs of formal Bible co. and Sem. training and 53 yrs. of pastoring experience; Yet I find it a challenge to read your posts with all the Heb.words you use. I know what they mean, I think, but for the untrained Christian , I am afraid you will drive them away. Let me check my memory; Is midrash a Jewish commentary on the Old T. ? I will try to digest all you said ;but it is not easy, because of you wording and words. I think you are a good balance for the extreme position of Homward and Elin. RedTent is helping to combate the heresy of the other two. So. we will pray for enlightenment for you. Yahshua left off at Rom. 6:4 and you jumped to Rom. 8. In my humble opinion I would start a Rom.5:19, if I were you. I would like to see you progression of Chs6 &7. Please don't go to fast, let us debate it as Yahshua did. Love to all Hoffco

 

[Karraster]

I am saddened that Yahshua has left us and started a new tread on how Christians can live sinless lives, He claims to have lived without sin for so many weeks. I am behind him in this personal holiness endever and I am praying for his success. I am also pushing for perfection ,even as the Apostle Paul did; Yet I know that I fall in to a sin sooner or latter and need forgiveness again. I think He can pursue that teaching here on this thread with Paul's help of Rom. 6-12. I think romans 7 is a very difficult passage for Yahshua to tackle. I am still challenging Him to come back and let us help him . Love to all, Hoffco

Thank you for your critique of Yahshua. I'm sure we are all edified by it.

 

[Karraster]

To Karracter. I am well trained Bible teacher of 8 yrs of formal Bible co. and Sem. training and 53 yrs. of pastoring experience; Yet I find it a challenge to read your posts with all the Heb.words you use. I know what they mean, I think, but for the untrained Christian , I am afraid you will drive them away. Let me check my memory; Is midrash a Jewish commentary on the Old T. ? I will try to digest all you said ;but it is not easy, because of you wording and words. I think you are a good balance for the extreme position of Homward and Elin. RedTent is helping to combate the heresy of the other two. So. we will pray for enlightenment for you. Yahshua left off at Rom. 6:4 and you jumped to Rom. 8. In my humble opinion I would start a Rom.5:19, if I were you. I would like to see you progression of Chs6 &7. Please don't go to fast, let us debate it as Yahshua did. Love to all Hoffco

Thank you for your critique of me. I have not had formal training in the Word, not have I had 53 years of pastoring, yet I know how to google any words I am not familiar with, and consider it part of the learning process.

As far as my being unenlightened, how does your opinion of others and what you think they "ought" to do, help in understanding of the Word? Or your credentials, for that matter?

Driving others away with all my Hebrew words? I thought we were studying the Bible.

 

[Karraster]

King David himself claimed that he "followed God's Torah" without fault -- even though he was guilty of some grievous sins. This is because God has always demanded faith first, which is always accompanied by a love and desire to learn and follow His Torah (i.e., Hebrews 11).
The "New Testament" also speaks of those who "kept the Torah to God's satisfaction," prior to Yahshua's death:

Luke 1:6 - "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
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As we will see, Paul makes use of Deuteronomy 30:11-14, applying it to Yahshua, later in the Romans letter.

Deuteronomy 30:15 - See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
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Once again, God makes clear the "duality" of the Torah.

Deuteronomy 30:16 - In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
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[Karraster]

Much importance is given to "loving God" in Christianity, yet there is no standard as to WHAT love is (i.e., Is our definition of "loving God" the same as God's definition? Where is God's definition found at the time of Yeshua and Paul?)

Much of the "Mainstream Christianity" says the "Torah" or "Old Testament" is done away with. If that were the case, there is nothing to base understanding the "New Testament" on, or understanding Paul's letters. Paul was well trained in Torah, and considered as amongst the most educated men of his day.

"What would Jesus do?" the individual is not pointed to God's Torah (or to a Torah-based interpretation of the "New Testament") but left to decide by way of a combination of a particular's of a specific denominational theology, and their own "feelings."

In Deuteronomy (as well as in the "New Testament, i.e., 1 John 2:3), God explains what he means by "loving Him" -- obedience (in faith) to His Torah. This is the standard He gave us.

 

[Karraster]

Paul's message is that what is important to God is not whether you are a Jew (brought up with the Torah), or a gentile (raised apart from Torah), but if you follow His Torah in faith.



As Paul made clear in his letter to the congregation at Corinth. Once again, when Paul (or Yahshua, John, James, etc.), spoke of God's commandments, they meant but one thing -- the Torah:

1 Corinthians 7:19 -Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the
commandments [Torah] of God.



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[Karraster]

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh



Instruction of the Torah by itself, lacks power to change people's lives. It points out sin but does not free man from it. This is not the fault of the Torah, hence Paul’s clause, "because it was weak through the flesh" (re: 3:9; 7:25).

 

[GregoryC]

Torah! Torah! Torah!
It's almost like there is no such thing as the new testament.

john 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Torah! Torah! Torah!
It's almost like there is no such thing as the new testament.

john 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Brother! Calm down, if these want to bind themselves to a life-threatening standard, what must we do?

 

[Karraster]

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us



Messiah was subject to the same weaknesses and temptations as man in order to be able to redeem him (Hebrews 2:18; 4:15). Just as the scapegoat at Yom Kippur represented both the sin and the sin offering, Yahshua was sent by God "in the likeness of sinful flesh," and as the final, permanent Yom Kippur offering for the atonement of those sins.


The good news, or Gospels, is about the just requirement of Torah (sin punished by death) is not only fulfilled in Yeahshua, but also in those who are united and have "died" with Him (re: 6:3-6). The life that results from one's pursuit of love in the spirit is portrayed as the fulfilling of Torah (re: 8:12-16, 13:8-10).


The term "might be fulfilled," does not mean we can follow the Torah perfectly without ever sinning (as was shown in chapter 7, and in the example of King David, David himself claimed that he "followed God's Torah" without fault -- even though he was guilty of some grievous sins. This is because God has always demanded faith first, which is always accompanied by a love and desire to learn and follow His Torah (i.e., Hebrews 11).). Rather, it means that we have placed our trust in God through His Messiah, and are turned in the direction of obeying His Torah, striving to advance toward perfection. As Yahshua is the embodiment of the Torah, to "obey Yahshua" is to obey the Torah, and vice-versa. Yahshua instructed us; "Be ye holy (sanctified), as your Father in heaven is holy," - teaching along the same lines as Paul in Romans.

 

[GregoryC]

You strain at a nat and swallow the camel.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.

 

[Karraster]

john 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.



agrees perfectly with Paul! You must ask yourself, what is grace? What is truth? Hint-it's not thoughts or feelings

 

[GregoryC]

Here'e a thought and a feeling.
People who drink want to have others drink with them.
People who use drugs like to hang with other drug users.
People in bondage want those who are free to be bound with them.

 

[Karraster]

You strain at a nat and swallow the camel.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.

The gnat and camel comment referred to those who would obey all the ritualistic laws made men, such as washing of hands etc., and ignore the true instructions of God, summed up, (Love God, love neighbor, ie, 10 Words)

The Law is a curse, or a blessing, depending on how the heart condition is while living by them. It's all about changing the heart to one who does the will of the Father with gladness of heart, gratitude, and love.

 

[Karraster]

What is the law of liberty? You are either bound to God's Law, or you are bound to sin. Bound to God's law is liberty, and free from sin and wickedness.