What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?

[crossnote]

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:5-9)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:1-3)


In Corinth Paul wasn't calling them carnal christians but was accusing them of behaving carnally.
Romans 8 shows that one is either carnal (without God's Spirit) or spiritual (possessing God's Spirit).

thus no true Christian is 'carnal'.

 

[dcontroversal]

what would you say of the carnal child of God?

That their works are of wood, hay and stubble and they need to get right and that a saved child of God can be an enemy in their mind by wicked works....if they refuse to hear instruction and or get right there is a real possibility that they were never saved to begin with and or they have backslidden to the point that they have forgotten that they have been purged from their sins.

 

[Dustoffmyfeet]

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:5-9)

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:1-3)


In Corinth Paul wasn't calling them carnal christians but was accusing them of behaving carnally.
Romans 8 shows that one is either carnal (without God's Spirit) or spiritual (possessing God's Spirit).

thus no true Christian is 'carnal'.

Paul understood that all were saved and thus he was spiritually minded on all things. The people he was speaking to were as Christians are today. Paul has to speak as a carnal minded man because they could not handle the meat of the truth. They believed in Christ but some were under Apollo and some under Paul and whatever division of men. But as Paul also said, is Christ divided? No, even though these people believed in Christ, they yet lusted after the flesh. They were babes in Christ (as again all are saved by Christ and His authority).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it would help if we looked at the word.

41.42 σάρκινοςd, η, ον; σαρκικόςd, ή, όν: (derivatives of σάρξf ‘human nature,’ 26.7) pertaining to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires—‘worldly, base.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

the word carnal actually comes from the latin word which is translated from this greek word (gk. sarkikos lat. carneus)

the word means fleshly. A christian who is thinking of self is fleshly.

So, yes a christian can become carnal (fleshly) And when a Christian is thinking of self. He is unable to see the law of God, let alone any other law

 

[dcontroversal]

I think it would help if we looked at the word.

41.42 σάρκινοςd, η, ον; σαρκικόςd, ή, όν: (derivatives of σάρξf ‘human nature,’ 26.7) pertaining to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires—‘worldly, base.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

the word carnal actually comes from the latin word which is translated from this greek word (gk. sarkikos lat. carneus)

the word means fleshly. A christian who is thinking of self is fleshly.

So, yes a christian can become carnal (fleshly)

I agree as well and will say they can be called a worldly believer....the ones who are wrapped up in the cares and anxieties of the world and in so doing become stunted in their ability to produce fruit...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree as well and will say they can be called a worldly believer....the ones who are wrapped up in the cares and anxieties of the world and in so doing become stunted in their ability to produce fruit...

yes, exactly. The ones who as paul calls them "babes in Christ" who need milk because they can not digest meat.

 

[dcontroversal]

yes, exactly. The ones who as paul calls them "babes in Christ" who need milk because they can not digest meat.

Exactly for they are yet (carnal)..immature....for sure!

 

[Wildflower]

Great topic.


Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


In the flesh, this body of death, we are dead to the law, because we are dead to sin in Christ before God. Sin has no dominion over us, so that we might live by the law of the Spirit of life, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of letter. We serve God with our spirit and the spirit that is of God cannot sin, does not know sin. To be carnally minded is of a spirit, an influence, of sin nature that dwells in our flesh condemned.

Rom7:23, 25
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


As a new creature God is creating & forming, the church the body of Christ, we need to know our doctrine within this dispensation. God makes the distinction in His word between prophecy and mystery by the reasoning of His own will and purposes and gives us instruction to rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you all beloved ones of CHRIST and may HIS kindness flow in building and edifying of HIS lambs and sheep for Eternal Life.

'Self'
1.Carnality is of the flesh and it is 'self', consist of selfish feelings and desires and did what was pleasing in it's sight.

2. And the fruits of carnality is written in the letter to the church of Galatians chapter 5;19-21.

3. It's nature is contrary and enmity to GOD's SPIRIT, Gal. chapter 5;17

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

You must be born again of the spirit and you will keep the law.
Cannot do it
cannot want to do it
without being born again.
If you are keeping the word of God and following Jesus, you are born again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You must be born again of the spirit and you will keep the law.
Cannot do it
cannot want to do it
without being born again.
If you are keeping the word of God and following Jesus, you are born again.

what about the pharisees.

they kept the law better than anyone.

where they born again?

 

[just-me]

what about the pharisees.

they kept the law better than anyone.

where they born again?

Brother, they didn't. It was their tradition more than anything. The original law had been severely skewed by the Pharisees. Jesus said Himself that He didn't come to make anything different, but to define the truth correctly according to His Father. This is what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

John 5:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:37-47 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]I receive not honour from men.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The reminder of this conflict is in Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Everything they accused Jesus of disobeying was not the persuasions of the original law. Their law was invented by them, taking bits a pieces from the truth and making their own doctrine. They were carnally minded to say the least.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother, they didn't. It was their tradition more than anything.

Ah but they did. Jesus did not even call them out when they said they obeyed the law. And even stated unless our righteousness(according to the law) exceded theirs (which everyone in their day knew, they could not) we would have no hope.

The pharisees were the do gooder's of the day. No one could look at them and say they sinned. They hid there sin.

 

[chubbena]

Ah but they did. Jesus did not even call them out when they said they obeyed the law. And even stated unless our righteousness(according to the law) exceded theirs (which everyone in their day knew, they could not) we would have no hope.

The pharisees were the do gooder's of the day. No one could look at them and say they sinned. They hid there sin.

One can see if the Pharisees did by listening to what Yeshua says in Matthew 23.
On the other hand I see we do much better by putting the witnesses a.k.a. the law away.

 

[just-me]

The pharisees were the do gooder's of the day. No one could look at them and say they sinned. They hid there sin.

I can look at them through the Word and say they sinned. You can too. They were not subject to the law because they had their own law. Today some denominations seem to make their own doctrines too. Seems to be human nature that invokes a carnal train of thought inmost every case.

 

[just-me]

One can see if the Pharisees did by listening to what Yeshua says in Matthew 23.
On the other hand I see we do much better by putting the witnesses a.k.a. the law away.

I don't understand your last sentence. Sorry

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can look at them through the Word and say they sinned. You can too. They were not subject to the law because they had their own law. Today some denominations seem to make their own doctrines too. Seems to be human nature that invokes a carnal train of thought inmost every case.

well you must look at them through different eyes.

According to the ten commands. They were righteous. According to the truth, they were sinners.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One can see if the Pharisees did by listening to what Yeshua says in Matthew 23.
On the other hand I see we do much better by putting the witnesses a.k.a. the law away.

the problem with the pharisees is they looked at the ten (plus there added laws) and thought they were righteous.

They did not see that sin is MUCH more then breaking one of the ten. If we looked at everything God considers sin there would be so many commands we probably could not fathom them.

we need to stop looking at the law, which can not make us righteous. And start looking to Christ. Who shows us HOW to be righteous.

 

[just-me]

well you must look at them through different eyes.

According to the ten commands. They were righteous. According to the truth, they were sinners.

Yes I do evidently. Do you have a scripture reference that says they were righteous? I'll give an example as to how I see their hypocrisy.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 29:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Isaiah 29:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

1 Corinthians 2:16a (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?

What the Pharisees had done was make a distorted law so that assets rightfully due to the parents would be used in the temple work, thereby freeing the children of any obligation of honor and respect to their parents, as well as to generate more income for the Pharisees to use. This distorted law also negated the promise of God toward the children.

Exodus 20:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12[/SUP] *Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


Deuteronomy 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16[/SUP] *Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Exodus 21:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.


Leviticus 20:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9[/SUP] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

*Curseth in Hebrew=to make light of the parents position in the family, and purposefully not abiding by the concerns and rules of the household.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Ephesians 6:1
1. Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2. *Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3. That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Romans 1:28-32
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I do evidently. Do you have a scripture reference that says they were righteous? I'll give an example as to how I see their hypocrisy.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 29:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Isaiah 29:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

1 Corinthians 2:16a (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?

What the Pharisees had done was make a distorted law so that assets rightfully due to the parents would be used in the temple work, thereby freeing the children of any obligation of honor and respect to their parents, as well as to generate more income for the Pharisees to use. This distorted law also negated the promise of God toward the children.

Exodus 20:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12[/SUP] *Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


Deuteronomy 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16[/SUP] *Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Exodus 21:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.


Leviticus 20:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9[/SUP] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Curseth in Hebrew=to make light of the parents position in the family, and purposefully not abiding by the concerns and rules of the household.

1. I never said they were righteous. I said. THEY FOLLOWED THE LAW. Amd appeared righjteous to everyone they came in contact with.
2. When it comes to the TEN COMMANDMENTS, they followed the law.

are you going to sit there and argue with me??? When even God himself claimed that our righteousness must excede theirs?? Why would he say this unless it was a near impossible task?

Do you think yours exceeds theres? I would challenge you on that. I know mine does not. It does not even come close!