Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
- Thread starter Shava
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Shava, I believe you have me confused with someone else. I do NOT believe miracles are being performed today the way they were in the first century. I agree, where is the evidence of it. Where is the evidence that this is being done. It would be national news on a daily basis from day one. Now, I believe God heals. But he does this by working behind-the-scenes and not laying on of hands as in the first century.
sure. i understand fully that other Greek texts can help one understand a word's usage and meaning. but you are taking that a bit further than what is reasonable.
you quote Peter:
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
(2 Peter 1:16)
and without regard to what Peter is talking about (that Christ is glorified!), you quote Plato, again without regard to context, where he tells of some philosophers deciding how to amuse themselves, where Socrates and Agathon would like to drink and tell riddles, and Pausanias & Eryximachus would rather drink a little less, and amuse themselves with fine soliloquies about idolatrous sex.
because the latter two also would like to dismiss the musicians so they can concentrate fully on wordsmithing, you argue that Peter, talking about the glorified Christ, is telling us that music is evil.
but Peter is not talking about music, or even worship at all. "sophizo" may be properly used to refer to skillful musicianship, but that's not the primary use in Plato's passage at all - they are discussing clever riddles versus fine oration - and Peter is telling us quite simply that he and the other apostles are not making this stuff up - that they have indeed seen the glorified Christ!
jumping through all these hoops and completely ignoring the context of the passages, aren't you engaging in a bit of "sophizo" ??
furthermore, if "skill" and "cunning" are inherently evil, what do you make of this?
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
(Matthew 10:16)
or this:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(2 Timothy 3:15)
here the word "make thee wise" is sophizo.
and what of this?
Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
(Psalm 33:3)
did David encourage us to sin and deceit? the man after God's own heart?
did Paul?
did Christ?
of course not.
now how do you arrive at such error?
granted that the carnal mind cannot understand spiritual things. truly! and God has taken the foolish things of the world and made them wise; a shame to them the world think wise (e.g. Plato).
but from this we don't infer that the more convoluted, twisted and nonsensical our reasoning is, the closer we are to God.
what if i show you a Greek source with the word "theos" in it that refers in an offhand way to Pan or Bacchus? does that mean "god" is necessarily in reference to this idol whenever Paul or Peter or John uses the word? is that the sort of madness by which we are to interpret scripture?
be sober minded. rightly divide the Word.
well i hope you realize that when you lift your voice to sing, that noise that comes out of your mouth is something your body has composed and performed too.
and when you go blindly crashing into a lexicon and a pile of ancient sophistry, and come out crying "eureka!" because the orators couldn't be heard over the noise of the lounge-club band, that twisted and meaningless tautology you have in your clutches is nothing more than a cunningly devised fable born in a human mind.
yes. i blush for some people's antics too.
you touched on something very true here but tossed the pearl in the pile of clamshells -
nothing we do or say is worthy of God. no spoken word, chanted hymn, strummed melody, devotion of study or schizophrenic word association game we endeavour on befits Him.
but the greatness of His Grace and Mercy, the absolute wonder of His lovingkindness is this:
that while we were yet sinners, He loved us.
that while we have nothing to offer Him, He accepts us.
that while we are like grass, like a puff of smoke in the wind, He rejoices over us.
our acapella cacophony is no purer in His eye than our jangling on a harp. the greatness of God is that He accepts the sacrifice of a pure & contrite heart, not that He loves to hear our voices squeal or that we lull Him to graciousness with our lyre.
it's not because He is pleased with contratenors. it's not because He is delighted with the hum of a 16' untersatz. it's because Christ has shed His blood to cover our iniquity that we are permitted to have breath to utter a syllable or strength of finger to strike an organ key.
if we would embrace that Mercy, and walk humbly before Him, as He requires, this thread wouldn't exist at all.
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it's disingenuous and deceitful to place this specific reference to how a word was used in the context of one of Homer's plays beside the basic definition of the word, as though it directly applies to how the apostle used it, with absolutely no regard for context or even admitting to the uninformed reader of this thread that this is a totally separate comment on a totally unrelated piece of literature.
if i were to follow this reasoning, i might also conclude that the faithful believer ought not to ever engage in any skilled work or handicraft. is knitting sin? is watchmaking detestable? how about making tents? it takes some skill to do it well - was Paul living in ignominy when he supported himself by his craft instead of living on the church's dollar?
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I know. I just think its not right for someone to say things like that.
Its okay to give your opinion on something. But to tell people what's right, wrong or how things should/shouldn't be just doesn't seem right to me. Unless it is in the word of God and you understand it then I see nothing wrong with it.
Kinda like this topic here. There is really no reason to keep arguing over it. But I gotta say at least this topic is good for a laugh.
My church doesn't use anything but our voice to praise the Lord. Not because we think it's wrong. But we are a small church we don't have a lot of money. And when we have money it goes to the bills or to the brethren who are in need of food or bills that need to be paid. And to use that money on anything like instruments just seems silly. So we use what God gave us. Our voices
Its okay to give your opinion on something. But to tell people what's right, wrong or how things should/shouldn't be just doesn't seem right to me. Unless it is in the word of God and you understand it then I see nothing wrong with it.
Kinda like this topic here. There is really no reason to keep arguing over it. But I gotta say at least this topic is good for a laugh.
My church doesn't use anything but our voice to praise the Lord. Not because we think it's wrong. But we are a small church we don't have a lot of money. And when we have money it goes to the bills or to the brethren who are in need of food or bills that need to be paid. And to use that money on anything like instruments just seems silly. So we use what God gave us. Our voices
You do not have to be good with your hands to play a piano, guitar, harp??? If playing an instrument is an artistic gift,then making idols out of gold or silver is a artistic gift as well.
If God commands "x" but I instead do "y" then that is sin, it constitutes disobedience. So when God commands singing yet I do otherwise that is sin in its most pure, unadultered form. As I have said a few times before, if I can disobey God when it comes to singing, then I can disobey God when it comes to anything else....if I do not have to do as God says when it comes to singing, there is no reason i have to do as God says when it comes to anything else.
The probelm is men do not want God's word to be the only and final authority on how NT worship is to be, that is why you have 1000's religious groups that all contradict each other yet all are somehow biblically correct wallowing in those man-made contradictions.
If God commands "x" but I instead do "y" then that is sin, it constitutes disobedience. So when God commands singing yet I do otherwise that is sin in its most pure, unadultered form. As I have said a few times before, if I can disobey God when it comes to singing, then I can disobey God when it comes to anything else....if I do not have to do as God says when it comes to singing, there is no reason i have to do as God says when it comes to anything else.
The probelm is men do not want God's word to be the only and final authority on how NT worship is to be, that is why you have 1000's religious groups that all contradict each other yet all are somehow biblically correct wallowing in those man-made contradictions.
I am very happy that God does not need and will not accept me to speak for Him. Preachers who are Disciples meaning students are truly happy that Christ in the Prophets and Apostles has supplied all of the educational resources: they will discover great joy in speaking within the sacred pages and letting words in context both include and exclude what God wants us to know for spiritual growth. If words do not exclude then people are saying that God is not capable of communicating with His creatures. Lucky for us no one find the Bible or most of church history where musical performance and performers are not connected with--and it is self-evident--trying to silence the word or Logos which is the Regulative Principle with a heavy hand marking clergy singers, instrument players, actors, dancers often connected with "getting drunk on wine." It is a happy bit of evidence that even in the Near Wine or Male Symposium [crooked singers] voted to put the flute girls or harp boys OUT to "play with themselves" when they wanted to hold a discussion. Jesus did that to the Minstrels so they could not get the fame for the work of Jesus. The point is, what motivates people who plan to sow musical discord from about the year 373 onward when singing became the honey to attract the members who usually had a long travel to attend.
Drunk with wine is often defined in the texts as being FLUTED DOWN WITH Wine. Then by knowing the WILL OF THE LORD (Spirit, Word of Christ) we are read to be EDUCATED by the WORD only. A preacher has been supplied with the grandest songs (never tuneful) and sermons God gave them. Over and over their RESOURCE is narrowly defined as THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Why would they reject letting Christ in the Prophets and Apostles do all of their WORK for them. Composing their own words and virtually ignoring the Text and Context with backup music uses two of the most WORKS-INTENSIVE efforts possible. Listening to "praise ditties performed by praise dittiers" is really WORK for the paying audience as well.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts:
but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
IMPLICIT: you cannot have harp, viol, tabret or PIPE in your religious festival and possible be regarding or paying attention to the WORK of the LORD or the OPERATION of HIS Hands: He has done all of the Works and even baptism is pure grace because ANTI-tupos which we OBEY "makes us free from sin" as an INSTEAD of dying for our own sins.
Musical Instruments are always connected with obeying the command for the Synagogue (temples not commanded) to PREACH the WORD by Reading the Word for comfort (rest=sabbath) and refusal to LISTEN TO and obey the WORDS (Dabar-Logo) of God.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
.....Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
In Isaiah 30 the Spirit OF Christ shows that the sounds of wind, string and percussion instruments are God driving His enemies into "hell". Within a few Churches of Christ the MUSICAL PERFORMANCE intends to REPLACE preaching the WORD by READING the Word as a teaching "that which is written for our learning."
Amos is repeated by Stephen in Acts 7 to prove that God did not command their house as a "worship center" and that the people were without redemption because the replaced the peoples REST with PLAY which means playing games and playing instruments.
Amos 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the WORDS of the LORD:
When we can prove that the preachers trained in theatrical and musical skills and sent out to CHANGE churches of Christ that they do not permit either in their sermons or songs the ticket-holders to HEAR THE WORDS OF THE LORD. Dabar or Logos is the Regulative Principle by which God does all of His Work. Logos iis the OPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, pleaying instruments or acting. Whatever message comes from God through Moses, the Prophets or Jesus (not the Scribes) is the Purpose Driving God's wanting people to assemble.
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amos 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Isaiah 5:21 Woe unto them that are WISE in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
sapientes or SOPHOS
[H2450 SKILFUL OR ARTFUL]
prūdens fabulis [lying wonders] scribere,(doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge) disserendo, Arts I. Skill in producing any material form, handicraft, trade, occupation, employment jurisprudence and eloquence, Liv. 9, 42: “ars grammatica,” grammar, Plin. 7, 39, 40, § 128: “rhetorica,” Quint. 2, 17, 4: “musica,” poetry, Ter. Hec. prol. 23: “musica,” music, Plin. 2, 25, 23, § 93: “magica, witchcraft
The godly preachers I have known understand the promise of Jesus that if they speak the Word as God breathed it into Him they will be hated, despised and probably never be a Keynote speaker or get rich by selling stuff like books. Being ARTLESS they know that they do not rest on their talent as HYPOCRITES (Ezekiel 33) meaning entertaining speakers, lovely singers or instrument players.
Drunk with wine is often defined in the texts as being FLUTED DOWN WITH Wine. Then by knowing the WILL OF THE LORD (Spirit, Word of Christ) we are read to be EDUCATED by the WORD only. A preacher has been supplied with the grandest songs (never tuneful) and sermons God gave them. Over and over their RESOURCE is narrowly defined as THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Why would they reject letting Christ in the Prophets and Apostles do all of their WORK for them. Composing their own words and virtually ignoring the Text and Context with backup music uses two of the most WORKS-INTENSIVE efforts possible. Listening to "praise ditties performed by praise dittiers" is really WORK for the paying audience as well.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts:
but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
IMPLICIT: you cannot have harp, viol, tabret or PIPE in your religious festival and possible be regarding or paying attention to the WORK of the LORD or the OPERATION of HIS Hands: He has done all of the Works and even baptism is pure grace because ANTI-tupos which we OBEY "makes us free from sin" as an INSTEAD of dying for our own sins.
Musical Instruments are always connected with obeying the command for the Synagogue (temples not commanded) to PREACH the WORD by Reading the Word for comfort (rest=sabbath) and refusal to LISTEN TO and obey the WORDS (Dabar-Logo) of God.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
.....Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
In Isaiah 30 the Spirit OF Christ shows that the sounds of wind, string and percussion instruments are God driving His enemies into "hell". Within a few Churches of Christ the MUSICAL PERFORMANCE intends to REPLACE preaching the WORD by READING the Word as a teaching "that which is written for our learning."
Amos is repeated by Stephen in Acts 7 to prove that God did not command their house as a "worship center" and that the people were without redemption because the replaced the peoples REST with PLAY which means playing games and playing instruments.
Amos 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the WORDS of the LORD:
When we can prove that the preachers trained in theatrical and musical skills and sent out to CHANGE churches of Christ that they do not permit either in their sermons or songs the ticket-holders to HEAR THE WORDS OF THE LORD. Dabar or Logos is the Regulative Principle by which God does all of His Work. Logos iis the OPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, pleaying instruments or acting. Whatever message comes from God through Moses, the Prophets or Jesus (not the Scribes) is the Purpose Driving God's wanting people to assemble.
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amos 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Isaiah 5:21 Woe unto them that are WISE in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
sapientes or SOPHOS
[H2450 SKILFUL OR ARTFUL]
prūdens fabulis [lying wonders] scribere,(doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge) disserendo, Arts I. Skill in producing any material form, handicraft, trade, occupation, employment jurisprudence and eloquence, Liv. 9, 42: “ars grammatica,” grammar, Plin. 7, 39, 40, § 128: “rhetorica,” Quint. 2, 17, 4: “musica,” poetry, Ter. Hec. prol. 23: “musica,” music, Plin. 2, 25, 23, § 93: “magica, witchcraft
The godly preachers I have known understand the promise of Jesus that if they speak the Word as God breathed it into Him they will be hated, despised and probably never be a Keynote speaker or get rich by selling stuff like books. Being ARTLESS they know that they do not rest on their talent as HYPOCRITES (Ezekiel 33) meaning entertaining speakers, lovely singers or instrument players.
Classical Trinitarians including the inventors of the TRIAS concept understand
That there is One God the Father who is Holy Spirit meaning WHOLLY Spirit without flesh and bones.
The One God BREATHES His thoughts
The One Son articulates that Breath as Words.
The One God (Theos) Made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord (Kurios) and Christ
Jesus then could say MY WORDS are SPIRIT and Life (John 6:63)
Remember what we learned about prepopsitions? The Spirit (Mind) OF God is God's OWN Spirit just as our spirit is OUR own spirit (1 corinthians 2). Christ in the Prophets and Apostles HAS delivered all that pertains to Life and Godliness. The written memory of the Apostles delivered IN PARTS for our memory consists of prophecies and knowledge. Christ gives us A holy spirit (ours) or A good conscience (1 Peter 3:21) so that we can READ BLACK text on BROWN paper or so that we can HEAR the Word when the command is obeyed to PREACH the WORD (logos) by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine. We might question God's power to BREATHE all that we need through Jesus who validated HIS Words by SIGNS AND WONDERS. That is the only way to protect US from people who claim that a spirit told them to steal our church house. We simply do not ever want to drink the KoolAid of anyone who claims to be speaking FOR God Who was not capable of telling us to NOT go out to the false Kingdoms because God's kingdom does not come with observation. That means Religious Observations by claim the role of the MAN Jesus Christ as the only Mediator between God and Man. Jesus of Nazareth as Holy Spirit liberated us from laded burden and burden laters. Lying Wonders are defined as religious performances of speaking, music and theatrics claiming to represent God.
The Seven Spirits (like the Menorah) which would rest on Messiah would all be forms of Divine Knowledge (Isaiah 11:1-4)
H7306 rûach roo'-akh A primitive root;
.....properly to blow, that is, BREATHE;
.....only (literally) to smell or
.....(by implication perceive
.....(figuratively to anticipate, enjoy):—
.....accept, smell, X touch,
.....make OF quick understanding.
nephesh From H5314 ; properly a BREATHING creature,
.....that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality;
.....used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): MIND
H7307 rûach roo'-akh From H7306 ;
.....wind;
.....by resemblance BREATH,
..........that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;
.....figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality;
.....by extension a region of the sky;
.....by resemblance spirit,
..........but only OF a rational being (including its expression and functions):—
.....air, anger, blast, BREATHE, X cool, courage, mind,
That there is One God the Father who is Holy Spirit meaning WHOLLY Spirit without flesh and bones.
The One God BREATHES His thoughts
The One Son articulates that Breath as Words.
The One God (Theos) Made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord (Kurios) and Christ
Jesus then could say MY WORDS are SPIRIT and Life (John 6:63)
Remember what we learned about prepopsitions? The Spirit (Mind) OF God is God's OWN Spirit just as our spirit is OUR own spirit (1 corinthians 2). Christ in the Prophets and Apostles HAS delivered all that pertains to Life and Godliness. The written memory of the Apostles delivered IN PARTS for our memory consists of prophecies and knowledge. Christ gives us A holy spirit (ours) or A good conscience (1 Peter 3:21) so that we can READ BLACK text on BROWN paper or so that we can HEAR the Word when the command is obeyed to PREACH the WORD (logos) by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine. We might question God's power to BREATHE all that we need through Jesus who validated HIS Words by SIGNS AND WONDERS. That is the only way to protect US from people who claim that a spirit told them to steal our church house. We simply do not ever want to drink the KoolAid of anyone who claims to be speaking FOR God Who was not capable of telling us to NOT go out to the false Kingdoms because God's kingdom does not come with observation. That means Religious Observations by claim the role of the MAN Jesus Christ as the only Mediator between God and Man. Jesus of Nazareth as Holy Spirit liberated us from laded burden and burden laters. Lying Wonders are defined as religious performances of speaking, music and theatrics claiming to represent God.
The Seven Spirits (like the Menorah) which would rest on Messiah would all be forms of Divine Knowledge (Isaiah 11:1-4)
H7306 rûach roo'-akh A primitive root;
.....properly to blow, that is, BREATHE;
.....only (literally) to smell or
.....(by implication perceive
.....(figuratively to anticipate, enjoy):—
.....accept, smell, X touch,
.....make OF quick understanding.
nephesh From H5314 ; properly a BREATHING creature,
.....that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality;
.....used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): MIND
H7307 rûach roo'-akh From H7306 ;
.....wind;
.....by resemblance BREATH,
..........that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;
.....figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality;
.....by extension a region of the sky;
.....by resemblance spirit,
..........but only OF a rational being (including its expression and functions):—
.....air, anger, blast, BREATHE, X cool, courage, mind,
i love context. i love the Word. let's cite some scripture instead of a slew of Greek philosophers, playwrights and poets, and let's make a distinction when we do.
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.
(Matthew 9:18-26)
While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
(Mark 5:35-43)
While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
(Luke 8:49-56)
here Christ was called to a mans house by faith to heal a man's daughter.
when He arrived at the house, He found it full of mourners. this included people whose profession it was to sing and play dirges, and to loudly wail and bemoan the dead. people who used both their voice and instruments to grieve.
now the man who had called Christ to come, believed in Him, and by faith in His mercy and His power, asked Him to come. the mourners at the house, if they had faith, would have been rejoicing. Christ told them to stop their wailing and put them out, musicians and singers.
was this because the minstrels were playing lyres, and lyres were evil? of course not. if that were the reason, the wailing women would have stayed. He put them all out. He put them out because He had come to heal the girl, and there was no place for grieving the dead in the house.
if you would just accept the Word of God and add nothing to it, you wouldn't be confused.
we're made free! we're no longer under the curse of the law. why do you want your flesh to justify you, now that you know it cannot? how quickly we go back to our vomit!
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.
(Matthew 9:18-26)
While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
(Mark 5:35-43)
While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
(Luke 8:49-56)
here Christ was called to a mans house by faith to heal a man's daughter.
when He arrived at the house, He found it full of mourners. this included people whose profession it was to sing and play dirges, and to loudly wail and bemoan the dead. people who used both their voice and instruments to grieve.
now the man who had called Christ to come, believed in Him, and by faith in His mercy and His power, asked Him to come. the mourners at the house, if they had faith, would have been rejoicing. Christ told them to stop their wailing and put them out, musicians and singers.
was this because the minstrels were playing lyres, and lyres were evil? of course not. if that were the reason, the wailing women would have stayed. He put them all out. He put them out because He had come to heal the girl, and there was no place for grieving the dead in the house.
if you would just accept the Word of God and add nothing to it, you wouldn't be confused.
we're made free! we're no longer under the curse of the law. why do you want your flesh to justify you, now that you know it cannot? how quickly we go back to our vomit!
Presley:
It's good for us to develop views and opinions that are consistent with God's Word; there are all sorts of issues out there, some far more important than others. It's doctrine that related to the Person and work of the Lord Jesus that is supremely important.
It's good to be respectful, of course.
Blessings.
It's good for us to develop views and opinions that are consistent with God's Word; there are all sorts of issues out there, some far more important than others. It's doctrine that related to the Person and work of the Lord Jesus that is supremely important.
It's good to be respectful, of course.
Blessings.
did you miss the word "but" ?
"woe to those that rise early in the morning so that they may go after strong drink!" says the prophet.
this doesn't mean it's a sin to rise early in the morning.
"And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands."
they rejoice and make merry at their feasts, they have fine food and music, gifts of God, BUT they give no thought or thanks to God!
this doesn't mean it's a sin to rejoice, to sing and hear joyful songs, or to enjoy good food and drink. it means that these things ought to be done with thanksgiving in our hearts! we have no cause to be merry but the Lord; every good thing is a gift from heaven, and celebrating for celebrations sake is wicked.
the Lord gave Israel many feast days, and commanded them to rejoice, and He commanded us also to rejoice. He never gave a fast day as a remembrance.
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