Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[RedTent]

When Christ was tempted by the devil quoting scripture to him Christ always answered "It is also written" as in Matt 4:4 and 7 and 10.

As is usual, scripture is quoted telling us that works do not save. I always picture a little four year old standing with hands on hips telling the father who asked him to pick up his pile of toys "But Daddy, you TOLD me that you loved me no matter what I did".

Another scripture that is used over and over is that we are saved by faith. They forget the God spoke first time in Hebrew, and when God used that word it meant acting on something solid and dependable. The translations use a word that means standing to one side twiddling our thumbs as we complete the intellectual exercise of believing in something.

If we are to understand God who is spirit, and follow Him, then these half truths just aren't going to work.

 

[BenFTW]

Some issues I see:

Joe can read and believe what he reads but what about repentance? What if Joe wronged some people in some way, stole some things, so how does Joe repent to those people or make restitution of what he stole? James 5:16; Matt 18:15

Mat 10:32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven"

What men will Joe confess before?

Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38 who will baptize Joe? Matt 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." How can Jesus be in the midst of Joe.


I liken Joe to a person, that for whatever reason, goes into a coma. They cannot do as God desires in a coma.

SeaBass, your doctrine is flawed and false. It is soaked and drenched in legalism, hopefully not pouring into the minds of those reading. A man such as Joe would be saved, because he confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Water baptism isn't what saves a person, its just an outward act to show others Jesus is your Lord. Someone who is not baptised can be saved, look to Abraham and the thief on the cross. Saved by faith. A man who confessed Jesus Christ before entering coma, he too is saved, for it is not by works, but my grace and grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ.

You need not say any more for you have clearly defined how legalistic the perspective you hold is. You may say Joe isn't saved, but God says he is, according to His word. Such a person doesn't need to do works, because works are not what save us, they determine how we will be rewarded at judgement but not out entrance into heaven.

You aren't even trying to listen to what people are saying. I'm sure you haven't even pondered the thought of why you need to spread what you consider to be truth, to people. Have you? Are you concerned for their soul, do you think if they do not work, they will be condemned? No! It says in the Word to labor to enter His rest! It doesn't say work so that you may be saved. It says, STOP WORKING.

Hebrews 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


You want to keep having this discussion but to what end? I will quote Jesus as it pertains to you.
Matthew 11:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You want to focus on works, but the Word says to focus on rest. Rest in His finished work.
I am debating for your sake! Not my own. I am arguing this point because it will set you free from guilt and condemnation. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ." Rest! Works are good, but they do not save you, keep you saved or make you lose salvation. To what end are you arguing your point? If its to save a soul, then you need not worry. Jesus did it on the cross. "It is finished!" Its done. Accept it. Be set free from that which has kept you bound. Do not worry, whether you've done enough, works will do themselves in your life by entering His rest. But the works arent what saves you and takes away your sins. The blood of Jesus, the Son of God's blood does.

Before you reply, think about Jesus. See him, look at his face, in your mind. Imagine the cross and what he did for you. If the cross hasn't given you salvation, or it did and you have to maintain it, has God forgotten the frailty and our inability to be perfect? You will not walk into the works God has preordained for you, if you do not walk in His rest. If you do not walk according to the Spirit and instead law, you will not walk into those works. Just because He has them set up, doesnt mean you will walk into them. You have the choice. There are many paths, His path for you and the ones that lead to destruction. You can be saved and miss out on the path He has set before you, but what a missed opportunity to miss out on the purpose of your life.

SeaBass, God loves you too much to let your salvation be in your hands. He won't have it. He didnt do 99.9% of the work and leave you with the little bit left. Jesus did it all. Again, "It is finished." Rest...

 

[notuptome]

When Christ was tempted by the devil quoting scripture to him Christ always answered "It is also written" as in Matt 4:4 and 7 and 10.

As is usual, scripture is quoted telling us that works do not save. I always picture a little four year old standing with hands on hips telling the father who asked him to pick up his pile of toys "But Daddy, you TOLD me that you loved me no matter what I did".

Another scripture that is used over and over is that we are saved by faith. They forget the God spoke first time in Hebrew, and when God used that word it meant acting on something solid and dependable. The translations use a word that means standing to one side twiddling our thumbs as we complete the intellectual exercise of believing in something.

If we are to understand God who is spirit, and follow Him, then these half truths just aren't going to work.

More straw.

No matter what the child does or does not do the child is still his child. By nature the child will desire to please his father. We by our new nature now desire to please our Heavenly Father. No matter what we do we are still His child.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

How about book, chapter and verse.?

Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 10:9-10,17 John 3:16-18

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Alligator]

And some people wonder why there is so much misunderstanding out there.

The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:

• Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
• Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
• If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
• If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!

Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.


Wayne Jackson.

the heart and soul of Calvinism:

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints., all known as TULIP.

 

[posthuman]

Keeping the works of the OT law does not save. Keeping Christ 's NT works does save, Rev 2:26.

let's actually read that:

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
(Revelation 2:26-28)

now i'm sorry if my eyes fail me, but did He say "he that overcomes will be saved" or did He say "he that overcomes will be given great rewards"

?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:

• Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
• Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
• If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
• If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!

Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.


Wayne Jackson.

This comment. I might quote it and save it for later debates against Calvinism.

 

[posthuman]

the heart and soul of Calvinism:

Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints., all known as TULIP.

would you guys like it better if i said

"faith alone saves, and the faith that saves is not alone"
- ANONYMOUS

?

 

[Hashe]

The problem with these kinds of posts is that we take scriptures entirely out of their original context and try and play them off each other.

When Paul writes about 'works', he is writing against Jews who want people to become Jews and do works of the Jewish law.

When James writes about 'works', he is not referring to works of the Jewish law but countering those who say 'because we have faith we can do whatever we want'. For James works are not 'works of the Jewish law' (did abraham have the law?) but rather living out of faith.

There was a recent post about the website 'sundays are the worst'. This website pretty clearly shows that James' message is not really taken to heart by many 'Christians'.

 

[Timeline]

If CHrist alone saves, will Christ save everybody?

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered.

Why would they be blesses if all are saved?

 

[crossnote]

The problem with these kinds of posts is that we take scriptures entirely out of their original context and try and play them off each other.

When Paul writes about 'works', he is writing against Jews who want people to become Jews and do works of the Jewish law.

When James writes about 'works', he is not referring to works of the Jewish law but countering those who say 'because we have faith we can do whatever we want'. For James works are not 'works of the Jewish law' (did abraham have the law?) but rather living out of faith.

There was a recent post about the website 'sundays are the worst'. This website pretty clearly shows that James' message is not really taken to heart by many 'Christians'.

C'mon, c'mon the first three chapters of Romans is where Paul makes his case that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are guilty before God under both the written Law and the law of conscience. So when Paul is talking of Law he is speaking universally.to all.

 

[Hashe]

C'mon, c'mon the first three chapters of Romans is where Paul makes his case that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are guilty before God under both the written Law and the law of conscience. So when Paul is talking of Law he is speaking universally.to all.

Exactly! He is saying that we don't have to become Jews - because becoming a Jew doesn't save you! They also are guilty.
This is different from saying he is using 'works' differently from James.

 

[BenFTW]

C'mon, c'mon the first three chapters of Romans is where Paul makes his case that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are guilty before God under both the written Law and the law of conscience. So when Paul is talking of Law he is speaking universally.to all.

I like what your signature says.

 

[Alligator]

Ephesians 2:8-9 Romans 10:9-10,17 John 3:16-18

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Eph. Is saying that God's plan of salvation did not come about because we did great works and thought we deserved it. Instead, God wanted to show that His plan is all about grace to an undeserving people. This verse is not talking about works of obedience to Him after we become Christians.
Rom. Is a powerful scripture but it cannot be set aside alone. It doesn't mention repentance (Luke 13:3), or baptism. I think at least you will agree repentance is necessary .

John 3:16-18, again, cannot be singled out as being the only thing we have to do. No mention of confession or repentance.

 

[RedTent]

More straw.

No matter what the child does or does not do the child is still his child. By nature the child will desire to please his father. We by our new nature now desire to please our Heavenly Father. No matter what we do we are still His child.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This is an example of the devil using truth to prove what isn't truth, like he did when he tempted Christ. That God loves us no matter what we do is NOT straw, it is truth. But to use that truth to say we should not do all we can to live for Christ as Christ wants us to is using truth to achieve a lie.

 

[phil112]

Another about the thief, he is not an example of NT savlation. He was promised paradise while CHrist and he were still both alive under the OT law..............................

Are you tripping?
You are caling a whole bunch of people a liar, you know. I personally know people that have witnessed deathbed confessions and repentence. According to you it didn't happen. I mean really, what are you smoking?

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, your doctrine is flawed and false. It is soaked and drenched in legalism, hopefully not pouring into the minds of those reading. A man such as Joe would be saved, because he confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Water baptism isn't what saves a person, its just an outward act to show others Jesus is your Lord. Someone who is not baptised can be saved, look to Abraham and the thief on the cross. Saved by faith. A man who confessed Jesus Christ before entering coma, he too is saved, for it is not by works, but my grace and grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ.

You need not say any more for you have clearly defined how legalistic the perspective you hold is. You may say Joe isn't saved, but God says he is, according to His word. Such a person doesn't need to do works, because works are not what save us, they determine how we will be rewarded at judgement but not out entrance into heaven.

You aren't even trying to listen to what people are saying. I'm sure you haven't even pondered the thought of why you need to spread what you consider to be truth, to people. Have you? Are you concerned for their soul, do you think if they do not work, they will be condemned? No! It says in the Word to labor to enter His rest! It doesn't say work so that you may be saved. It says, STOP WORKING.

Hebrews 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


You want to keep having this discussion but to what end? I will quote Jesus as it pertains to you.
Matthew 11:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You want to focus on works, but the Word says to focus on rest. Rest in His finished work.
I am debating for your sake! Not my own. I am arguing this point because it will set you free from guilt and condemnation. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ." Rest! Works are good, but they do not save you, keep you saved or make you lose salvation. To what end are you arguing your point? If its to save a soul, then you need not worry. Jesus did it on the cross. "It is finished!" Its done. Accept it. Be set free from that which has kept you bound. Do not worry, whether you've done enough, works will do themselves in your life by entering His rest. But the works arent what saves you and takes away your sins. The blood of Jesus, the Son of God's blood does.

Before you reply, think about Jesus. See him, look at his face, in your mind. Imagine the cross and what he did for you. If the cross hasn't given you salvation, or it did and you have to maintain it, has God forgotten the frailty and our inability to be perfect? You will not walk into the works God has preordained for you, if you do not walk in His rest. If you do not walk according to the Spirit and instead law, you will not walk into those works. Just because He has them set up, doesnt mean you will walk into them. You have the choice. There are many paths, His path for you and the ones that lead to destruction. You can be saved and miss out on the path He has set before you, but what a missed opportunity to miss out on the purpose of your life.

SeaBass, God loves you too much to let your salvation be in your hands. He won't have it. He didnt do 99.9% of the work and leave you with the little bit left. Jesus did it all. Again, "It is finished." Rest...

Where in the bible is the words legal found?

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

What do those that have no works need rest from?

 

[BenFTW]

SeaBass, you know how people make a doctrinal statement or mission statement, of sorts, of their beliefs? Please type out what it is you're trying to say, in regards to salvation and works. One complete, cohesive, statement. I want a doctrinal statement of what you believe is required for salvation. As it is now, I understand that you believe works are necessary for salvation. But, lets not even start or refute that. Make your doctrinal statement.

 

[PennEd]

hi,

You posted "Works and a changed life are EVIDENCE of Salvation they cannot save you"

Let's ASSUME for a moment "Joe" was saved by faith alone, he was saved by no works.

Now that Joe is a Christian, does Joe have to do those works that are "evidence of salvation"?

Can Joe just not do those works that are "evidence of his savlation" yet still be saved?

Hi Sea,

You neglected to tell me the "works" that the thief on the cross did. You DO believe he was saved don't you?

Ya know, like all Christians I LOVE John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not die but have eternal life", but the verses earlier in John 3:14 and 15 where Jesus describes ALL we have to do for Salvation using how the Israelites had to be cured from the fiery snakes that bit them and were killing them because of their sin, is in some ways more instructive: Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

THAT'S ALL THEY HAD TO DO TO HAVE LIFE! Not give all they had to the poor, or give up drinking wine, or help little old ladies cross the street, etc...

Remember, this is JESUS giving this analogy.

 

[BenFTW]

Hi Sea,

You neglected to tell me the "works" that the thief on the cross did. You DO believe he was saved don't you?

Ya know, like all Christians I LOVE John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not die but have eternal life", but the verses earlier in John 3:14 and 15 where Jesus describes ALL we have to do for Salvation using how the Israelites had to be cured from the fiery snakes that bit them and were killing them because of their sin, is in some ways more instructive: Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

THAT'S ALL THEY HAD TO DO TO HAVE LIFE! Not give all they had to the poor, or give up drinking wine, or help little old ladies cross the street, etc...

Remember, this is JESUS giving this analogy.

I like that you used a type or shadow of things to come, to make your point! Even from the very lips of Jesus.