Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[Jda016]

Hi JDA.

I would actually be very interested in seeing this evidence. Could you post any prophies and evidence which arn't subjective?

Many thanks.

G

Sure. I had started a thread on just some of the verifiable fulfilled prophecies three days ago here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87494-verifiable-biblical-prophecy-fulfilled.html

 

[Sophomorocat]

Since "atheists" supposedly don't believe in the existence of God I think it only polite that we should return the favor.

Atheism! What atheism?

 

[Sophomorocat]

Since "atheists" supposedly don't believe in the existence of God I think it only polite that we should return the favor.

Atheism! What atheism?

 

[deepthought]

Since "atheists" supposedly don't believe in the existence of God I think it only polite that we should return the favor.

Atheism! What atheism?

Welcome to the forum Sophomorocat. It's a shame your first post is rather non-constructive to the conversation. We do not deny the existence of theists. More that we can not find truth in the idea of an intelligent deity in the universe.

 

[Cycel]

Bible says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. God has ways to reach people I know nothing about. But everyone will have had a chance by the time the end comes to make that choice.

I don't understand. For countless generations that Amazonian tribes people have lived and died without knowledge of Christ. Are you saying that their having died without accepting Christ is of no consequence, that there is still time at the end of time for them to learn and to accept?

 

[nl]

I don't understand. For countless generations that Amazonian tribes people have lived and died without knowledge of Christ. Are you saying that their having died without accepting Christ is of no consequence, that there is still time at the end of time for them to learn and to accept?

To whom much is given, much is required. (Luke 12:48). Those with less knowledge are responsible for less. God is just. The revelation of God's righteous wrath is delayed but will come. Not all beings are of equal rank and dignity. An offense against a higher Being is a higher offense. Students ought to respect their teachers and children their parents. Life has many relationships among beings of unequal rank. The Creator is worthy of glory and honor from His creatures.

Almighty God is holy and pure. All humanity will be found unholy and impure and guilty before God to greater and lesser degrees. Saving faith is precious faith and a gift from God. God is Sovereign and will grant mercy and pardon where He pleases at His discretion. Prayer is an expression of faith. Pray and plead for pardon. God is compassionate and hears and will answer prayer. Prayer can be humbling but is right to do.

Song lyric: On that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied.

For those who will believe, Jesus suffered God's wrath on their behalf. It was infinite-Divine-human, dual-natured Jesus suffering once to fulfill the requirements of justice on behalf of finite creatures who will become recipients of pardons and heirs of eternal life.

Consider both the goodness and severity of God (Romans 11:22).

 

[Cycel]

For countless generations that Amazonian tribes people have lived and died without knowledge of Christ. Are you saying that their having died without accepting Christ is of no consequence, that there is still time at the end of time for them to learn and to accept?

To whom much is given, much is required. (Luke 12:48). Those with less knowledge are responsible for less. God is just.

"The servant who knew his master's wishes, yet made no attempt to carry them out, will be flogged severely. But one who did not know them and earned a beating will be flogged less severely...." (Luke 12:48)

So the Amazonian tribesmen who have not heard of God will suffer less punishment in Hell? Is that what you think Luke's message is? Why should they receive any punishment at all? Luke is referencing the slave who is already bound to his master. He is not speaking of a slave in another province of the empire who does not know this particular slave master.

The message has always been that one must accept Christ prior to death, or it will be too late to repent. The Amazonian tribesmen of the past, and even those today, who have never heard of the message of Christ, must be punished and will be punished by God, but less severely punished?

Perhaps it was reasonable in Luke's society that a slave be punished for not carrying out his master's wishes, even though said slave had not received word of those wishes, but no reasonable slave owner – in my mind – would inflict punishment in such an instance. But perhaps I am wrong? Maybe the intent of Luke was to show that no slave should attempt to use the excuse that he had not heard his master’s command; in fact it is the job of every slave to always seek out and follow his master’s wishes.

In a slave society no excuse is sufficient to escape punishment. I suppose that is the essence of Luke’s message. Still, we are not living in Luke's society. We are reasonable men. How are the Amazonian tribesmen expected even to hear the message?

 

[Cycel]

I started this life as a Christian and have given Christianity serious study since that time. What sections of this discussion do you think I am missing?

The section where you repent.

What you are missing, I think, is that I have already read more than the six biblical passages you've listed for my benefit. They didn't persuade me the first time and they don't now. At this stage in my explorations I require solid reasons for accepting God existence. Until such time biblical passages don't carry the kind of weight for me as they do for you. Have I asked you previously your reasons for believing? What most persuades you?

 

[nl]

Original sin would be a doctrinal view that all are "by nature the children of wrath" and go astray from the womb (Ephesians 2:3, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 53:6).

A different view was expressed by Don Richardson in his book, Heaven Wins: Heaven, Hell and the Hope of Every Person, Regal publisher, 2013, which I read a few weeks ago. If I understand it correctly, Don's book asserts that a "salvific" gospel message is proclaimed by natural revelation (nature and astronomy) even if it is proclaimed in a fuller and richer way by the Bible itself. God is glorified that Christ's Redemptive work is more than a "Pyrrhic" victory on behalf of just an exclusive few but that Christ's Redemption is more inclusive and saves people more widely than what many Christians imagine.

He quotes Psalm 97:6 and Acts 14:17 and Romans 1:20:

• The heavens proclaim His Righteousness. All peoples (every nation) see His Glory.
• He [Theos - God] left not himself without witness, in that He did good and gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
• Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen [not just dimly sensed] being understood from what has been made.

The universe is observable across length, width, height and time and God is Omnipresent in these. But, the universe also includes intellect, emotion and will and when these are acknowledged in same fullness we have the attributes of Omniscience, Omnisentience and Omnipotence which define God. In the three persons of the Trinity, we see three, coordinated manifestations of Infinite Intellect, Infinite Emotion and Infinite Will.

"Heaven Wins" also asserts an "age of accountability" regarding infants who die in infancy.

Many strong Christians have held to an "age of accountability". I have been more influenced by the doctrine of original sin.

IMHO, God's intellect, emotion and will are seen in Intelligent Design and God's Providential interventions in history. Regarding Providence, I would describe the British escape from Dunkirk during WWII as one cited example.

 

[deepthought]

Original sin would be a doctrinal view that all are "by nature the children of wrath" and go astray from the womb (Ephesians 2:3, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 53:6).

A different view was expressed by Don Richardson in his book, Heaven Wins: Heaven, Hell and the Hope of Every Person, Regal publisher, 2013, which I read a few weeks ago. If I understand it correctly, Don's book asserts that a "salvific" gospel message is proclaimed by natural revelation (nature and astronomy) even if it is proclaimed in a fuller and richer way by the Bible itself. God is glorified that Christ's Redemptive work is more than a "Pyrrhic" victory on behalf of just an exclusive few but that Christ's Redemption is more inclusive and saves people more widely than what many Christians imagine.

He quotes Psalm 97:6 and Acts 14:17 and Romans 1:20:

• The heavens proclaim His Righteousness. All peoples (every nation) see His Glory.
• He [Theos - God] left not himself without witness, in that He did good and gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
• Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen [not just dimly sensed] being understood from what has been made.

The universe is observable across length, width, height and time and God is Omnipresent in these. But, the universe also includes intellect, emotion and will and when these are acknowledged in same fullness we have the attributes of Omniscience, Omnisentience and Omnipotence which define God. In the three persons of the Trinity, we see three, coordinated manifestations of Infinite Intellect, Infinite Emotion and Infinite Will.

"Heaven Wins" also asserts an "age of accountability" regarding infants who die in infancy.

Many strong Christians have held to an "age of accountability". I have been more influenced by the doctrine of original sin.

IMHO, God's intellect, emotion and will are seen in Intelligent Design and God's Providential interventions in history. Regarding Providence, I would describe the British escape from Dunkirk during WWII as one cited example.

I would caution you on the British Evacuation of Dunkirk example. There were nearly 70,000 British Troops Killed, lost or captured during the process of the pull back. Of those 1 in 7 British troops deployed were made PoWs and marched to German PoW Camps. To all those who lost fathers, brothers and sons, would they consider this a divine act? For those that did survive were aided heavily by a fleet of civilian vessels (the small boats) who braved the conflict waters to aid in rescuing the soldiers. This was not an act of God but an act of Humanity. From the perspective of the German Army, they were saying Dog was on their side and driving back the invaders to their island.

 

[nl]

I would caution you on the British Evacuation of Dunkirk example. There were nearly 70,000 British Troops Killed, lost or captured during the process of the pull back. Of those 1 in 7 British troops deployed were made PoWs and marched to German PoW Camps. To all those who lost fathers, brothers and sons, would they consider this a divine act? For those that did survive were aided heavily by a fleet of civilian vessels (the small boats) who braved the conflict waters to aid in rescuing the soldiers. This was not an act of God but an act of Humanity. From the perspective of the German Army, they were saying Dog was on their side and driving back the invaders to their island.

That was significant adversity that was suffered there. Thank you, deepthought, for the update on facts. Best regards to all who were impacted by events there.

 

[deepthought]

It's ok NL . I get the point you were making but warfare is always unsteady ground when debating topics like this.

 

[notforgotten]

A person would have to be in all places at all times to know there is no God.

 

[Cycel]

A person would have to be in all places at all times to know there is no God.

Or even to know that there is a God. This argument cuts both ways.

 

[JesusLives]

I don't understand. For countless generations that Amazonian tribes people have lived and died without knowledge of Christ. Are you saying that their having died without accepting Christ is of no consequence, that there is still time at the end of time for them to learn and to accept?

This is where it is God's job to determine the outcome of these people. Native American Indians seemed to believe in a spirit world so who says that the Amazon people don't have a belief in a higher power/spirit source? I don't know enough about them to make any assessment.

But I can tell you that the bible says that God even knows the number of hairs on our head and I would imagine that goes for the Amazon people too. Everyone will have had a chance. I believe that God only holds us accountable for the truths that we know. I guess it would be kind of like grading on a curve system. I am so glad that God is the judge and not me. I know the bible says that God is love He is also merciful and just.

 

[JesusLives]

What you are missing, I think, is that I have already read more than the six biblical passages you've listed for my benefit. They didn't persuade me the first time and they don't now. At this stage in my explorations I require solid reasons for accepting God existence. Until such time biblical passages don't carry the kind of weight for me as they do for you. Have I asked you previously your reasons for believing? What most persuades you?

I know you posed this last couple of questions to AgeofKnoledge but I'd like to give you my answer to this.

I just found out a couple of hours ago that my ex-husband, Mike passed away, he had cancer of the tongue and recently had 2/3rds of it removed. I and his family thank God that he did not have to suffer long and passed away quickly. I hate death, but it is a fact in this world. I trust God that He has our best interest at heart.

I found my mother dead at 8 years old from a heart attack and my father died when I was 12 years old. He had lung cancer that had spread everywhere and in 1967 they didn't have the medicines and some of the treatments that help prolong life that they have now. I am all too familiar with death and I don't like very much.

I think about God having a plan to save sinful man and it involved giving His Son as a sacrifice to ransom us from this sin sick planet. God did not have to do this He could have just zapped Satan and us out of existence, but He didn't. I think of Jesus who willingly gave up heaven and all of it's glory to come and be born in a stable to live with poor parents, When Jesus began his ministry he was homeless and was tempted and tried by Satan harder than any other human has ever had to deal with.

Can you imagine Satan asking you to turn stones into bread after not eating for 40 days and Jesus had the ability to do so, but even in such a hungered state said Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Then with each temptation given Him by Satan Jesus replied with scripture.

The people Jesus came to save most of them hated Him and they finally crucified Him, but as He hung on the cross Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

I am persuaded because I have never know this kind of love except for that love that Jesus has shown me when He died on the cross. That God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit had a plan to save fallen man and it was out of love this plan was formed. I don't know about you, but if it had been me I would have called for help and said God get me out of here let them die in their sins they hate me and don't want me around so what use is it for me to hang here when they don't want me or my sacrifice. Thank God Jesus stayed on the cross and died and rose from the dead three days later. I could never pay the debt I owe for His sacrifice. Thank you Lord Jesus all I can do Lord is bow before you and give you my heart and life. Please Lord help me to love others the way You have loved me. This is my prayer and why I am persuaded.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Or even to know that there is a God. This argument cuts both ways.

No it doesn't. Once you know there is a God, having met him or talked to him you don't need to be everywhere to know that he exists.

 

[Timeline]

Ok. Can I enquire as to the depth of paleontological research you have conducted into the formation and discovery of fossils? Have you ever spoken to palaeontologist? They can be lovely people. I know a few personally who are also call themselves christians. This reasons for lack of a complete fossil record can vary dramatically but most important is that fossils only form under ideal circumstances. An observation which is confirmed today in a laboratory.

Not every transitional form appears in the fossil record, because the fossil record is not complete. Organisms are only rarely preserved as fossils in the best of circumstances, and only a fraction of such fossils have been discovered. Paleontologist Donald Prothero noted that this is illustrated by the fact that the number of species known through the fossil record was less than 5% of the number of known living species, suggesting that the number of species known through fossils must be far less than 1% of all the species that have ever lived.[SUP][38][/SUP]
Because of the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, logic dictates that known fossils represent only a small percentage of all life-forms that ever existed—and that each discovery represents only a snapshot of evolution. The transition itself can only be illustrated and corroborated by transitional fossils, which never demonstrate an exact half-way point between clearly divergent forms.[SUP][39][/SUP]
The fossil record is very uneven and, with few exceptions, is heavily slanted toward organisms with hard parts, leaving most groups ofsoft-bodied organisms with little to no fossil record.[SUP][38][/SUP] The groups considered to have a good fossil record, including a number of transitional fossils between traditional groups, are the vertebrates, the echinoderms, the brachiopods and some groups of arthropods.[SUP][40]

[/SUP]

Well I must say that sounds a lot more honest than one of the other responses that I received. May God be with you in your search for Truth.

 

[nl]

The Apostle's Creed is an early resolution of the Christian church. I memorized it when I was younger and part of the Roman church. I still endorse it today when I consider myself to be part of the catholic or universal church although not part of the Roman church.

Reference Note: Despite its name, the Apostle's Creed does not have an apostolic origin but dates from the eighth century, although portions of it date from the third and fourth centuries

Apostles' Creed

Over the weekend, I alluded to a creed called the Apostles' Creed.

FYE (for your entertainment and edification), please see the YouTube video below by thought-leader, organic church leader Alan Hirsch. Alan presents a credal statement in three words: Jesus is Lord.

[video=youtube;mwBEWNn4FTw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwBEWNn4FTw[/video]

May Almighty God show Himself strong in all of our lives this week.

 

[homwardbound]

Or even to know that there is a God. This argument cuts both ways.

And is why all that is left after the crucifixion with the resurrection is to believe God or not. The entire purpose of the Gospel was and is to bring Love to us all and use this love, loving one another whether we agree or not. Now to me to do that is the fruit of true love from the creator of all we see, and was best shown through the man Christ Jesus, who as I see in the word never accused anyone, he just said wha tis truth and their own consciences convicted those people that used God for self gain Hypocrites they are called and they to this day travel land and sea:

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

And this type of people are still out and about harming the Love God gives, using Father's name in vain