Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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C
Although the ordinances of the past were but a shadow of the true thing to come, the physical explaining the spiritual, we are to use all of God's COUNSEL. Surely, if God did not allow disobedience in the flesh, He does not allow it in the spirit. Let us, therefore, watch over each other so that heart of stubbornness will not be found in us, those in Christ.
Maybe the best way to put it is that you are saved without works, but if you don't work, there's a good chance you weren't saved to begin with. For example, it is possible to be saved and die right away without really doing any works (although this is not a good idea to attempt). However, if you consider accepting Jesus as work, then I would lean toward no. Paul talks about people that do not know Christ doing good works and that they are law unto themselves. I personally believe that this means that someone that is in some remote area where they have never been taught about Jesus can "do good works" and be saved. I may be wrong about that, but if I'm right they are still doing good works and therefore would not be included in the "saved without works" question.
This verse is sometimes misunderstood. There is a law of nature for those that work the land a raise cattle as most people did then. It isn't that they knew automatically the law that God gave through Moses, but they knew how to plant and sow, according to seasons of God's creation, etc. Whether it be the laws through Moses, or any other laws outside of that, all creation are laws, and of God's commandments.
Romans 2:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Sin is adding or subtracting to God's creation. This is the tactics of the adversary. We know this as we read the story of Adam and Eve. Satan uses certain parts of God's truth to distort the truth. There is more considering people and their reactions toward others, but I don't need to expound on that.
If people without God's written law didn't live by the laws of nature (which are also God's laws) they would parish. If they knew the laws of nature and didn't adjust their way of life to be compatible with it, they would also parish by that law that will not change. The same goes for those who know God's will and elect to reject it. Paul used the Gentile who didn't have the Mosaic law as a parable of sorts. Jesus also makes this comparison when He said;
John 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Romans 2:12-15 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Sin is adding or subtracting to God's creation. This is the tactics of the adversary. We know this as we read the story of Adam and Eve. Satan uses certain parts of God's truth to distort the truth. There is more considering people and their reactions toward others, but I don't need to expound on that.
If people without God's written law didn't live by the laws of nature (which are also God's laws) they would parish. If they knew the laws of nature and didn't adjust their way of life to be compatible with it, they would also parish by that law that will not change. The same goes for those who know God's will and elect to reject it. Paul used the Gentile who didn't have the Mosaic law as a parable of sorts. Jesus also makes this comparison when He said;
John 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
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C
Further consideration:
With whom was He disgusted with? Was it not with those who sinned (offended)?
So, while it is called, 'Today', let us exhort one another, seeing that we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of that firm assurance (that which was established by the Christ as opposed to the angel's (Heb 2:2)) UNTIL the end.
If they did not escape, every transgression and disobedience of the Law receiving a justifiable repayment, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from the One who speaks from Heaven?
It is, therefore, necessary to presently hearken unto the Lord. We can no more turn away from His leading then the Hebrews.
With whom was He disgusted with? Was it not with those who sinned (offended)?
So, while it is called, 'Today', let us exhort one another, seeing that we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of that firm assurance (that which was established by the Christ as opposed to the angel's (Heb 2:2)) UNTIL the end.
If they did not escape, every transgression and disobedience of the Law receiving a justifiable repayment, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from the One who speaks from Heaven?
It is, therefore, necessary to presently hearken unto the Lord. We can no more turn away from His leading then the Hebrews.
They remain a spiritually immature babe in Christ and never earn any real (misthos) pay or wages if you will for (retirement) hah! in God's kingdom...
Again it seems simple....a believer will have at least one piece of fruit on their tree.....Is not (faith) a spiritual gift/fruit?
God<----men justified before God by belief..
Men<--men can see our faith by our works...even if it is but saving faith!
Again it seems simple....a believer will have at least one piece of fruit on their tree.....Is not (faith) a spiritual gift/fruit?
God<----men justified before God by belief..
Men<--men can see our faith by our works...even if it is but saving faith!
Yes, it is harder 'work' for some than for others to enter into the Rest of the Righteousness of Christ:
The point of contention here is that you are preaching the putting of more faith in your work than in the Work of Christ.
We who rest in Christ are not lazy when it comes to the works God has ordained in advance for us to do; when we are ready (prepared ahead of time by the maturing that Grace brings), and when He directs, we obey and follow. It really isn't that complicated.
Mostly I think you're just judging folks inappropriately because they don't measure up to a standard you have determined to be the 'line', when instead you should be seeking to find ways to build them up in who they are in Christ, spurring them on to maturity so that they can do the works that God has for them.
-JGIG
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (from Heb. 4)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (from Heb. 4)
The point of contention here is that you are preaching the putting of more faith in your work than in the Work of Christ.
We who rest in Christ are not lazy when it comes to the works God has ordained in advance for us to do; when we are ready (prepared ahead of time by the maturing that Grace brings), and when He directs, we obey and follow. It really isn't that complicated.
Mostly I think you're just judging folks inappropriately because they don't measure up to a standard you have determined to be the 'line', when instead you should be seeking to find ways to build them up in who they are in Christ, spurring them on to maturity so that they can do the works that God has for them.
-JGIG
E
It reminds me of Paul. WHo considered all his hard work (being stoned, left for dead, Shipwrecked, Jailed, Beaten, Not to mention his "Thorn in the flesh" as a momentary light affliction.
Paul found the rest of God And Gods work because no work at all.
Gods rest is not living any way we desire, that is not rest, Our way of living does not satisfy our inner Need, Only God can do this
Gods rest is not the law. The law brings condemnation, Conviction and judgment.
Gods rest is having a faith in God that whatever God wants us to do. No matter how hard, how painful, or how much it makes the world hate us. God is the one doing the work. And our lives are so short in the grand cheme of things (eternity) that any suffering we do do for God is worth it, No matter how painful it may be
Paul found the rest of God And Gods work because no work at all.
Gods rest is not living any way we desire, that is not rest, Our way of living does not satisfy our inner Need, Only God can do this
Gods rest is not the law. The law brings condemnation, Conviction and judgment.
Gods rest is having a faith in God that whatever God wants us to do. No matter how hard, how painful, or how much it makes the world hate us. God is the one doing the work. And our lives are so short in the grand cheme of things (eternity) that any suffering we do do for God is worth it, No matter how painful it may be
Whatever work one does is but filthy rags and none are saved through works. We are saved by grace. Christ knows his sheep and calls them by name and none shall pluck one out of his hand. His sheep are of the House of Israel, who are out of Adam. Not all people are adamic. Those who are, were born Christian and shall never perish, for they were born in the celestial plane , where they will return. God's own household, His begotten sons and daughters.
Well, your post at #382, you seemed a bit uncertain concerning the fact that there is only one Body of Christ.
But looking at your other posts before that one, I am now seeing that you understand the Dispensational distinctions between the means of salvation in the Old Testament and those of the New Testament.
But looking at your other posts before that one, I am now seeing that you understand the Dispensational distinctions between the means of salvation in the Old Testament and those of the New Testament.