Salvation Not Possible Without Works
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
I get what you both guys are saying, let's say it this way..
what did I do to receive God's gift?: I believed in Jesus as God's son and his sacrifice and asked him to live and reign in my life.
what do I do because of that grace?: 2, 3, 4....
what did I do to receive God's gift?: I believed in Jesus as God's son and his sacrifice and asked him to live and reign in my life.
what do I do because of that grace?: 2, 3, 4....
H
So, The Devil believes in God but is not a believer in God. Is this a correct statement according to your grammar lessen? Don bother to ask that. zzzzzz LOL, I know the answer. Satan is not believing in God, even He believes in God. correct in your grammar? James says to show your faith in your works; which mean the Devil is not showing faith in God, as He does not believe in God in the sense of being committed to God. This shows what true faith, belief in God is , we do works to show our faith, Sooo faith with out works is dead. thanks you for telling me the obvious. Actually it is important to know, if one doesn't ACT on his faith, he really is not a true believer! AMEN , Preach it, brother and sisters. Love Hoffco
Christ did not die for nothing, but Christ died to fulfill God's plan of salvation for man through Himself. It is up to man to obey that plan. Obeying or not obeying that plan (gospel) is what separates the saved from the lost.
Is it possible for one to be a Christian and be saved yet not have good works? No.
In Eph 1:4,5 God predetermined that Christians would have certain traits, those traits being "in Him", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" of God. In Eph 2:10 God predetermined Christians walk in good works. If one argues a Christian can be saved WITHOUT having that predetermined trait of walking in good works then he should also argue the Christian can still be saved WITHOUT those predetermined traits of being in Christ, holy and without blame and being called a son of God. Walking in good works is as much a predetermined trait of the Christian as being in Christ, holy and without blame and being a son. So good works are no more an option to salvation than being in Christ, holy and without blame and being a son are options.
Is it possible for one to be a Christian and be saved yet not have good works? No.
In Eph 1:4,5 God predetermined that Christians would have certain traits, those traits being "in Him", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" of God. In Eph 2:10 God predetermined Christians walk in good works. If one argues a Christian can be saved WITHOUT having that predetermined trait of walking in good works then he should also argue the Christian can still be saved WITHOUT those predetermined traits of being in Christ, holy and without blame and being called a son of God. Walking in good works is as much a predetermined trait of the Christian as being in Christ, holy and without blame and being a son. So good works are no more an option to salvation than being in Christ, holy and without blame and being a son are options.
Yes, this has been mentioned but is not applicable to us today for the thief is not an example of NT salvation. Mt 9:6 Christ is NOT ON EARTH today forgiving sins as He was with the thief Christ left earth leaving behind His NT gospel as His authority on earth and His NT gospel says one must believe, Jn 8:24, repent, Lk 13:3,5 confess, Mt 20:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16.
The thief is still not an example of NT salvation.
And what proof do you have the thief was not one of those baptized with John's baptism in Mk 1:5 and was a disciple of Christ but later fell away into a life of crime and was repentant on his cross? That would explain all the knowledge the thief had about God and Christ, that he knew there was God and God was to be feared, that Christ was innocent, and that Christ's death would not be the end of Christ for the thief knew Christ had a kingdom and saw his need to be in that kingdom. The thief had a better knowledge of Christ than some of Christ's disciples. So what proof an you offer that the thief was NEVER a disciple of Christ?
And what proof do you have the thief was not one of those baptized with John's baptism in Mk 1:5 and was a disciple of Christ but later fell away into a life of crime and was repentant on his cross? That would explain all the knowledge the thief had about God and Christ, that he knew there was God and God was to be feared, that Christ was innocent, and that Christ's death would not be the end of Christ for the thief knew Christ had a kingdom and saw his need to be in that kingdom. The thief had a better knowledge of Christ than some of Christ's disciples. So what proof an you offer that the thief was NEVER a disciple of Christ?
SeaBass, you still have failed to address this post. You did a red-herring, and dodged the questions. I will re-post it for you, once again. I want specifics.
Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.
If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?
Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).
Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.
PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?
Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.
If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?
Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).
Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.
PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?
SeaBass: YOU do not seem to understand that the Christian has an OBLIGATION in doing good works to help his fellow Christian or else be eternally lost for not doing so, Matt 25:41-46
"Faith only" says a "true believer" does not do good works for he would be trying to earn his salvation by doing those things...it would make the true belever maintaining his salvation CONDITIONAL upon doing those good works.
So are doing those good works neccesary for the Christian to maintain salvation?
What verse(s) says Abraham believed only?
Heb 11:8 "BY FAITH ABRAHAM, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
By faith Abraham obeyed...he had an obedient faith...a working faith.....faith is a work.
Heb 11:8 "BY FAITH ABRAHAM, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
By faith Abraham obeyed...he had an obedient faith...a working faith.....faith is a work.
No one in this thread I see has argued they can do their own works and be saved, but one must obediently do GOD'S works that God has given man to do to be saved. The distinction between one doing his OWN works and doing GOD's works can be seen in Rom 10:3:
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
There is a clear difference between one doing his OWN works and doing GOD'S righteousness. Faith only proponents fail to make this distinction in works for it kills their own strawman arguments.
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
There is a clear difference between one doing his OWN works and doing GOD'S righteousness. Faith only proponents fail to make this distinction in works for it kills their own strawman arguments.
That is a gross misrepresentation of what "Faith only" proponents advocate. You cannot quote one person who advocates no works, as a rule for the Christian life because it will be them earning their salvation. On the contrary, you will hear them advocating people to be obedient to the Lord, so that the works they do will stand at the judgement and not be consumed by fire. In doing so, that is being obedient, they will be rewarded for their good works. Their reward is at risk, not their salvation.
No faith proponent says, "A true believer does not do good works otherwise they'd be at risk of earning their salvation." It is you who holds a perspective that is of similar wording, except you say that a true believer works to maintain their salvation. When you put emphasis on works, you take your eyes off Jesus and His completed work. Works are not necessary for salvation, nor the maintenance there of. They are a fruit of who you now are, but by no means are they what keep your salvation secure.
Again, gross misrepresentation.
No faith proponent says, "A true believer does not do good works otherwise they'd be at risk of earning their salvation." It is you who holds a perspective that is of similar wording, except you say that a true believer works to maintain their salvation. When you put emphasis on works, you take your eyes off Jesus and His completed work. Works are not necessary for salvation, nor the maintenance there of. They are a fruit of who you now are, but by no means are they what keep your salvation secure.
Again, gross misrepresentation.