Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

I would like to ask you. Can someone who is not born-again have the Holy Spirit indwelling them? There is a difference between Him being on a person and being in and with a person (in case you were going to quote OT examples).

I mean, maybe he wasn't born-again, I could be wrong(or, the site could be). I'm just quoting a site, and I thought it was an interesting point. Regardless, water baptism is not required for salvation. Saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Its simple, no need to complicate it and add works upon salvation, to be saved.

It is not a process by which you accept Christ and then get water baptized to be saved, but you get water baptized once you are saved as an outward expression of your faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

then Mark 16:16 would only have to say, "he that believeth will be saved, he that believeth not will be damned", now why is it not written that way?

It is because baptism is a requirement (not the only requirement but a requirement) for salvation. It really is simple.

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[p_rehbein]

Answer this simple question, if someone did not believe, why would they be baptized?

They wouldn't..............that is what we..............WE.............are saying............sigh...........

For God so loved the world that whosoever BELEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life......

Salvation/forgiveness of sin comes through belief.............water baptism serves as a "witness" to the Church and to the world that a person has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.................it is a "witness," SYMBOLIC of being baptized in His death and His resurrection..............IT IS THE PRECIOUS BLOOD that cleanses, not WATER...

Anyway, God bless...............we are just butting heads..............

 

[BenFTW]

Are you saying a Christian is incomplete before they are baptized in water?

That is exactly what he is arguing. He is saying that a person is not saved unless they are baptized in water. Its called "baptismal regeneration."

 

[MsLimpet]

.........wow...........ok...........sigh.........well, I have no choice other than to post this once again...........

The Precious Blood of Jesus

1. Leviticus 17:11, 14 (cp. Deuteronomy 12:23) “For the life of the flesh
is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an
atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement
for the soul…. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life
thereof …”

2. Hebrews 9:22 “Without the shedding of blood, there is
no remission of sins.”

3. 1 John 1:7″… the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth
us from all sin.”

4. Revelation 1:5 “… Unto him that loved us, and washed us
from our sins in his own blood.”

5. Exodus 12:13 “… and when I see the blood, I will pass over
you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you,
when I smite the land of Egypt.”

6. Revelation 12:11 “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood
of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony …”

7. Hebrews 9:14 “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who
through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience …

8. Hebrews 10:19, 22 “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus … Let us draw near with a true
heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience …”

9. Hebrews 13:12 “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify
the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.”

10. Romans 3:24-25 “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

11. Romans 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

This looks like an epileptic seizure and I will say you cannot throw a conglomeration of scripture taken out of its context and it is not rightly handling the Word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mark 16:16 says you MUST be baptized in water to be saved, because you reject the word of God does not make you correct.

All of those scriptures are commands, that means you must "do" them to be righteous, if you think you can be righteous without obeying God, you have had a very bad teacher.

And what did you say about not following one verse? Yet you keep bringing in one verse.

My bible says different. so many different places.

John 3: 16. No baptism mentioned


Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

No mention of baptism

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

No mention of baptism

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No mention of baptism

gal 2: 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ

No mention of baptism

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

No mention of baptism

Rom 10 : 9 - 13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “?Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.?” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.?”

No mention of baptism

Jn 5: 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

No mention of baptism

romans 4: 5 - 8 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

No mention of baptism

Titus 3: 5 - [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

No mention of baptism

You stick with your doctrine based on one controversial verse.

I will stick to the lords truth based on MANY MANY verses (I only posted but a few)

 

[Jabberjaw]

Are you saying a Christian is incomplete before they are baptized in water?

No, I am saying that is what the bible says, lets look at your verse:

John 3:16 (NKJV)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So now we need to find out what it means when it says "believes in Him".

Jesus said too :

John 14:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

he who keeps ALL his commandments (baptism is one of them) he will love, do you believe Him?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

HAHAH I thought our new song waxed poetical! HAH!

so true, It played out in a few conversations here today

 

[Jabberjaw]

And what did you say about not following one verse? Yet you keep bringing in one verse.

My bible says different. so many different places.

John 3: 16. No baptism mentioned


Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

No mention of baptism

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

No mention of baptism

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No mention of baptism

gal 2: 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ

No mention of baptism

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

No mention of baptism

Rom 10 : 9 - 13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “?Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.?” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.?”

No mention of baptism

Jn 5: 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

No mention of baptism

romans 4: 5 - 8 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

No mention of baptism

Titus 3: 5 - [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

No mention of baptism

You stick with your doctrine based on one controversial verse.

I will stick to the lords truth based on MANY MANY verses (I only posted but a few)

and I could go through each one you posted, but to believe in Him, means to keep his commands:

John 14:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Baptism is a command whether you like it or not, do you love Him? do you believe Him?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your twisting scripture and it is not in context. Your first issue is you are quoting from the NIV which is a sever distortion of the Bible.

Your theories do not make sense...

You said,

Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48). Joh 14:17 records Jesus as saying that unbelievers cannot receive the Holy Ghost (see note 27 at Joh 14:17), so Cornelius and his friends must have been born again before their water baptism.

I would like to see scripture to confirm that Cornelius was "born again" before their water baptism. This is your theory...

lol.. How else did they do works of God, if they were still dead in their sin.

 

[MsLimpet]

And what did you say about not following one verse? Yet you keep bringing in one verse.

My bible says different. so many different places.

John 3: 16. No baptism mentioned


Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

No mention of baptism

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

No mention of baptism

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No mention of baptism

gal 2: 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ

No mention of baptism

2 tim 1: 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

No mention of baptism

Rom 10 : 9 - 13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “?Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.?” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.?”

No mention of baptism

Jn 5: 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

No mention of baptism

romans 4: 5 - 8 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

No mention of baptism

Titus 3: 5 - [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

No mention of baptism

You stick with your doctrine based on one controversial verse.

I will stick to the lords truth based on MANY MANY verses (I only posted but a few)

Where are the scriptures that mention baptism? There are MANY MANY scriptures that mention baptism. CONTEXT!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once we are baptized we become purified or set free from sin/set apart from sin.

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You do understand that the subject of the baptism in this passage is NOT WATER, it is the literal death and burial of Christ do you not?

We do not add the word water every time we see the word baptize. This would be a huge mistake. No greek reading this in their own language was automatically assume water.

Not to mention. Think about your translation.

Do you not know that we were "baptized in water" in his death. Now does this make sense? Why would it say we were baptized into two things?

 

[Jabberjaw]

They wouldn't..............that is what we..............WE.............are saying............sigh...........

For God so loved the world that whosoever BELEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life......

Salvation/forgiveness of sin comes through belief.............water baptism serves as a "witness" to the Church and to the world that a person has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.................it is a "witness," SYMBOLIC of being baptized in His death and His resurrection..............IT IS THE PRECIOUS BLOOD that cleanses, not WATER...

Anyway, God bless...............we are just butting heads..............

So if you believe in Him, why would not not obey his command to be baptized, especially since is says both are required :

How about a different verse:

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

 

[Spokenpassage]

No, I am saying that is what the bible says, lets look at your verse:

John 3:16 (NKJV)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So now we need to find out what it means when it says "believes in Him".

Jesus said too :

John 14:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

he who keeps ALL his commandments (baptism is one of them) he will love, do you believe Him?

To believe in Him is to have faith in Him. John 3:16 is salvation by faith, John 14:21-15 is talking about abiding in His love (John 15:9-10).

 

[MsLimpet]

lol.. How else did they do works of God, if they were still dead in their sin.

You tell us...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Answer this simple question, if someone did not believe, why would they be baptized?

Answer this question.

Can someone believe, yet not be baptized.

Then answer this (since again you refuse to anwere my question about what the word baptizo means)

If mark 16: 16 is true words of God. Are you sure this form of the word baptize is used to mean in water, and not by the spirit. Which automatically occures to ALL who believe.

Why do yuo assume the word baptize ALWAYS means water? No greek would have thought this. that is just a church word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and I could go through each one you posted, but to believe in Him, means to keep his commands:

John 14:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Baptism is a command whether you like it or not, do you love Him? do you believe Him?

lol..

Yeah I do believe him. And because of that I was saved.

And since he saved my, I had a gratitude and love for him. And from that, I was baptized, I Assemble myself with my brothers and sisters in Christ, I take the Lords supper. I love my brothers and sister and serve them, i serve my neighbors. (I can go on and on)

But non of those things saved me. Yet ALL are commands of God

 

[MsLimpet]

You do understand that the subject of the baptism in this passage is NOT WATER, it is the literal death and burial of Christ do you not?

We do not add the word water every time we see the word baptize. This would be a huge mistake. No greek reading this in their own language was automatically assume water.

Not to mention. Think about your translation.

Do you not know that we were "baptized in water" in his death. Now does this make sense? Why would it say we were baptized into two things?

"Baptism has a double function. (1) It brings the Christian into personal contact with Christ, so close that it may be fitly described as union with him. (2) It expresses symbolically a series of acts corresponding to the redeeming acts of Christ. Immersion = Death. Submersion = Burial (the ratification of Death). Emergence = Resurrection. All these the Christian has to undergo in a moral and spiritual sense, and by means of his union with Christ. As Christ by his death on the cross ceased from all contact with sin, so the Christian, united with Christ in his baptism, has done once for all with sin and lives a reformed life dedicated to God." (Similar testimonies and admissions might easily be greatly multiplied, but there is no need, these among the more recent will be sufficient.]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where are the scriptures that mention baptism? There are MANY MANY scriptures that mention baptism. CONTEXT!

yep context.

The contexts of ALL the verses I posted was salvation and how to be saved.

so again, Why did God leave out baptism if it was required?? Is God the author of confusion? Many of these people may have only had these passages, and never read mark 16. and died thinking they were going to heaven based on these passages alone, Did God condemn them because they were not baptized, or they were baptized only because they were saved, NOT TO BE SAVED?

 

[Annata]

Answer this question.

Can someone believe, yet not be baptized.

Then answer this (since again you refuse to anwere my question about what the word baptizo means)

If mark 16: 16 is true words of God. Are you sure this form of the word baptize is used to mean in water, and not by the spirit. Which automatically occures to ALL who believe.

Why do yuo assume the word baptize ALWAYS means water? No greek would have thought this. that is just a church word.

Baptismo means 'submerge' or 'go under'. The word 'metanoiea' means 'change your mind'.

Baptismo metanoiea usually gets translated 'baptize and repent', when really it's 'go under a change of mind'.

In the true sense, a believer can't be unbaptized, but in the water sense, not everyone who believes has to undergo water baptism. Water baptism is only a symbol of the inner change of mind/heart. It's just a recognition.

Jesus once said (outside canonical scripts) 'why do you cleanse the outside of the cup when the one who made the outside also made the inside'?

In otherwords, 'why do you get baptized in water, emptily, when it's the inside that really needs cleansed?'

 

[Jabberjaw]

You do understand that the subject of the baptism in this passage is NOT WATER, it is the literal death and burial of Christ do you not?

We do not add the word water every time we see the word baptize. This would be a huge mistake. No greek reading this in their own language was automatically assume water.

Not to mention. Think about your translation.

Do you not know that we were "baptized in water" in his death. Now does this make sense? Why would it say we were baptized into two things?

Since Jesus is not doing the baptism in Col 2:12, no Greek reading this would assume Holy Spirit baptism, and since there is only one baptism Eph 4:5, and only disciples can do this, any Greek would say it is water baptism in Col 2:12.