Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

KSublett · Apr 4, 2014

Historic Scholars understood the fatal fork at Sinai.

Ephraim Syrus b. c306, d. 373 On Our Lord notes that Sinai was a test.

http://www.piney.com/FathEphraimLord.html

18. But when their heathenism from being inward became open, then Moses also from being hidden openly appeared; that he might openly punish those whose heathenism had revelled beneath the holy cloud which had overshadowed them.
But God removed the Shepherd of the flock from it for forty days, that the flock might show that its trust was fixed upon the calf.

And he was there in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. Mark 1:13

While God was feeding the flock with all delights, it chose for itself as its Shepherd the calf, which was not able even to eat.
Moses who kept them in awe was removed from them, that the idolatry might cry aloud in their mouths,
which the restraint of Moses had kept down in their hearts. For they cried: Make us gods, to go before us.

What They Did.

19. But when Moses came down, he saw their heathenism revelling in the wide plain with drums and cymbals.
Speedily, he put their madness to shame by means of the Levites and drawn swords.

So likewise here, our Lord concealed His knowledge for a little when the sinful woman approached Him, that the Pharisee might form into shape his thought,as his fathers had shaped the pernicious calf.

KSublett · Apr 4, 2014

God turned Israel over to worship the STARRY HOST. David was a warrior king and the HALALs and even psalms were TAUNT SONGS as a way to BOAST and make the enemy turn coward. David did not lead congregational worship with instrumental accompaniment. The SONG PR J2167 IS zamar and means ONLY to strike something with your FINGERS. Psallo has the same meaning to pluck a bowstring with the FINGERS and never with a plectrum which eleminates guitar picks, drums, trumpets, pianos, organs or ANY musical instrument where the command is to SPEAK that which is written.

Ps 147:1 Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely.

H1984 hâlal haw-lal' A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify:—(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

H1966 hêylêl hay-lale' From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star:—lucifer.

Lucifer is Zoe or Venus as the Morning Star and was part of the WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOST to which God abandoned Israel BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

There are DOZENS of associations with MACHINES FOR DOING HARD WORK as the mark which says and needs no proving I WILL NOT USE ONE MIND AND ONE MOUTH TO SPEAK THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.

David or any SOOTHSAYING-SORCERY Levite would be executed if they went NEAR any holy thing or into any closed "holy" place.

Church is A School of the Word: a Church is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles. Christ in the PROPHETS radically condemns instruments as for instance saying that Tyre was LUCIFER the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

The MUSICALLY mocked Jesus up to the food of the old rugged cross: it's a matter of defining words like MOCKED, play, sport etc. Jesus said that God HIDES from the wise or sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers and instrument player.

presidente · Apr 4, 2014

KSublett said:

Apparently, this has great significance to you. It's a little hard for other people to see what you think you see in this. But I think I understand the point you are trying to make. But you don't seem to understand how this triliteral root thing works in Hebew. Just because some word is used ni one context,and that word is from the same root as another word that is used in some context to refer to something evil, doesn't mean that every concept related with those set of words is evil.

Baal worshippers cut themselves on Mt. Carmel. If I made up a doctrine that it were wrong to cut meat, as opposed to roasting the whole carcass and biting chunks off of it, and I quoted some Strong's defintiions of the Hebrew word translated 'cut' would that prove anything? I could conveniently ignore or dismiss all the verses where cutting of sacrifices is commanded or where cut is used in a neutral manner, like you seem to do with the positive references to the use of harps and other instruments in praise of God.

You might want to check out this online article on the word Lucifer at Acts 17:11 Archive: The Morning Star, Jesus Christ and Lucifer from the King James

Your approach to understanding truth on this issue is not rational.

There are DOZENS of associations with MACHINES FOR DOING HARD WORK as the mark which says and needs no proving I WILL NOT USE ONE MIND AND ONE MOUTH TO SPEAK THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING.

David or any SOOTHSAYING-SORCERY Levite would be executed if they went NEAR any holy thing or into any closed "holy" place.

Church is A School of the Word: a Church is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles. Christ in the PROPHETS radically condemns instruments as for instance saying that Tyre was LUCIFER the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

The MUSICALLY mocked Jesus up to the food of the old rugged cross: it's a matter of defining words like MOCKED, play, sport etc. Jesus said that God HIDES from the wise or sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers and instrument player.[/QUOTE]

presidente · Apr 4, 2014

KSublett said:

Nonsense. You slander David and contradict scripture:
I Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite. (NIV)

Nonsense again. You have no right to make up junk and attribute your ideas to Christ.

The priests were Levites, too. Other non-priests couldn't enter those areas, either, and it had nothing to do with whether one played the harp. Jacob cursed Levi's anger.

More weird arguments and irrational conclusions.

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument that this is about modern preachers trying to get tithes from the flock. The web page you referred us to, and judging by it's unique style of 'logic', probably authored by you, just doesn't make sense. Your arguments aren't justified by the text.

He could have said 'no.' The Lord had to cooperate for him to get the prophecy, either. He was a true prophet. He didn't make this stuff up.

If there is a lesson about enemies self-destructing, then maybe the lesson is Christians should play instruments so our enemies self-destruct. Thanks for that. Now, we can also use a very loose allegorical interpretation of a passage to arrive at our pre-conceived conclusions as well.

Not always. You draw a weird, unjustified conclusion from the text that makes no sense to probably anyone else in the world. most of us do not approach the Bible convinced that there is a secret message about musical instruments being demonic hidden in every passage that mentions musical instruments.

But I guess you could argue that instrumental music is a prelude to burning, since, somewhere there are instruments playing in the world,and the next moment, somewhere in the world, someone will light a fire. Blowing my nose is a prelude to cashing a check for over a million dollars if that is the case. If a rooster crows, someone will die after that, somewhere in the world. when a cat meows, somewhere in the world a baby is born. There just isn't any logical connection between the sets of events.

That's a weird interpretation. Tithing in the Old Testament was something Israelite's gave from their flocks and herds. There was no law about Moabites tithing. Ahab was getting tribute from Moab, which wasn't the same as the tithe law.

It sounds like you are talking about a negative experience you had. Most of us are not from a background that is against musical instruments, so we wouldnt' know if people boast of such things, either. But it is possible for someone who is against musical instruments to abuse, twist, and misuse scripture in some of the weirdest ways imaginable. I think several other posters could bear witness to this fact.

If you want to go to a church that doesn't have musical instruments, that's fine by me. But you don't have a right to judge other brethren over such a matter.

posthuman · Apr 4, 2014

presidente said:

like Psalm 5!

To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.

1 Give ear to my words, O Lord,

consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God:

for unto thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O Lord;

in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness:

neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:

thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:

the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy:

and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies;

make thy way straight before my face.

9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;

their inward part is very wickedness;
their throat is an open sepulchre;
they flatter with their tongue.

10 Destroy thou them, O God;

let them fall by their own counsels;
cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions;
for they have rebelled against thee.

11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice:

let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them:
let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

12 For thou, Lord, wilt bless the righteous;

with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

MsLimpet · Apr 4, 2014

The Bible teaches us that we must prove and test all things and only hold fast to that which is good (1 Thess. 5:21). If we cannot go to the Bible and prove what we are doing, then we cannot participate in it with God’s blessing (Rom. 12:2; Mt. 7:21).People try to justify the use of mechanical instruments in New Testament worship by saying, the Bible doesn’t say we can’t use them. But,, this is not how we are to read and study the Bible.

Instead of going to the Bible to see if a practice is specifically condemned, we should go to the Bible and see if it is authorized by God and, pleasing to Him. We have to find out if what we are doing is acceptable to God (Eph. 5:10; Phil. 1:10). If we cannot prove what we do, then we should not do it (1 Thess. 5:21).

We must walk by biblical faith which can only come from God’s word (Heb. 11:6; 2 Cor. 5:7; Rom. 10:17). Therefore, where there is no word of God, there can be no walking by faith. We are not to assume or presume; instead, we must find out if what we are doing is glorifying God and acceptable to Him (Eph. 5:10; Col. 3:17; 1 Cor. 10:31). One cannot use mechanical instruments in New Testament worship because there is no divine authority from God.

Pie · Apr 5, 2014

MsLimpet said:

How far do we actually take this doctrine? I mean driving a car isn't specifically authorized or stated to be pleasing to God... for the sake of argument, I'll say riding a horse or donkey since that was a possibility to New Testament peoples..Or are we restricting this to apply only to musical instruments? (That's what seems to be the case) Because honestly, this doctrine isn't even feasible if you actually live it out and apply it to everything. There's plenty of things the Bible remains morally neutral on.

I think a good case for why musical instruments are not sin has already been presented...

Jabberjaw · Apr 5, 2014

Pie said:

I have heard your argument used as such, "The bible doesn't show the NT church using microphones so why do you use microphones" and the list goes on.

When Christ preached His sermon on the mount, why do you suppose he did it from the mount? because he could publicly address more people, when the people gathered and Jesus preached to them from a boat, why do you suppose he used the boat? it was so he could publicly address more people, these things available at the time were used for expedience, just like the microphone a preacher or song leader uses today, they are used to publicly address more people and does not change the worship like the use of musical instruments does.

When Christ told his disciples to "go" :

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He did not say use a donkey, he said "go", you can use a plane, car, horse, bike etc... do these things change the command? he said "go" so we go by what ever is expedient.

He told us how to worship, "sing" making "melody in your hearts", the command was to "all" meaning each one of us must do it, I cannot do it for you, you cannot do it for me, the command was "to one another", therefore if you are to believe the instrument is a mechanical stringed instrument in the command, then everyone in the congregation needs to learn to play it "to one another" or they are changing the form of worship...

Is it not easier to accept what the bible says and use the stringed instrument Paul prescribes? and "make melody in your heart", the instrument that every living soul has and those heart strings can be twanged or twitched by the beautiful sounds (music) that come from the voices of all who participate? and not "change" the worship given us by example of the NT church?

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

God is the WORD or LOGOS: The pagan Logos was Hermes as in "the New Hermeneutic". God breathed His Spirit into Jesus and Jesus spoke only what HE heard from the father. Jesus said that He did not have any "words" of His own and speaking "that which is written for our LEARNING" got Him crucified. He commanded the Apostles and us to teach what HE commanded to be taught and warned that truth speakers will never be rich and famous but will probably get hurt. Instrument imposers LOVE to spread all of the RACA hate words against those who will not BOW when they PIPE.

Peter says that the prophets by the Spirit OF Christ [1 Peter 1:11; 2 Cor 3; Rev 19:10] were made more certain by Jesus. The Apostles were ear- and eye-witnesses of the risen Lord. Because A Church of Christ is built upon the Prophets and Apostles both delivered by Messiah, and Peter said that was not subject to Private Interpretation which means Further expounding. That INCLUDES the Prophets and apostles and EXCLUDES the Scribes and Pharisees: Jesus called them hypocrites and in Ezekiel 33 Christ had Ezekiel named those who speak on their own to entertain for money, beautiful singer voices (performances) and playing musical instruments. The MARK of musical instruments was that THEY WILL NOT SPEAK OR LISTEN TO THE WORD. A preacher who needs to be propped up by musical performers should take the hint and go get an honest job.

The Spirit OF Christ defined the Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) both inclusively and exclusively. EXCLUDED was
"vocal or instrumental rejoicing" which would STOP the purpose of the church as A School of the Word. The kingdom of Christ would come ONLY after the Jew's COVENANT WITH DEATH was annulled. Whatever a group does should enhance teaching that which has been written for our learning: standing in the rain is not conducive. Paul commanded that we "teach that which has been taught." Playing "musical" instruments were commanded by David because the Jacob-cursed Levites were under the KING and commanders of the army. Instrumental imposers planning to sow discord are hated by God and they BOAST about making WORSHIP WARS.

The Campbells restored for a short time:
CHURCH is A School of Christ through the Word.
WORSHIP is Reading and Musing the Word of God.

A synagogue was A School of the Word and they and Jesus met in houses: you don't need a law to get in out of the rain. You don't need a law to have bathrooms or heaters. By definition from the most ancient literature "musical instruments were to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." You don't need a command NOT to scramble people's mind when you claim to be a Church or SKUL.

Therefore, Christ in the Prophets defined the REST for the godly people then and the future Kingdom where HE reigns as SOLE TEACHER when we teach that which is written. Why would a preacher ever run out of the greatest history ever written of many nations and have to BOOST his popularity by imposing musical performers? Ephesians 4 says that God gave gifted men to SILENCE the cunning craftsmen or SOPHISTS. A sophist is primarily a self-speaking speaker, clergy singer or instrument player. Christ through Paul wants all PERFORMERS silenced because that is the only way that Jesus can speak when we obey the command to teach what HE commanded to be taught. Paul's PUNCH LINE as to why they should be silenced is that THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

homwardbound · Apr 5, 2014

Shava said:

And I hear God say he not only loves you whether you use instrument or not, as to me and all the world, Love is the fulfillment of all, to love all and not just those that love you
Are we in agreement there Brother? I am not against you believing how you choose, please don't be against others that choose differently than you, for God is able to make us stand truth?

And nowhere in the word does it say ye are to be a _____________________________ or any denomination. If you are comfortable and at peace between God and you, why not keep it there and be at peace for others to see and join you if they so desire to.
I like the song " You believe what you want to believe" But you don't have to live like a refugee

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

And that above scripture goes much deeper than just about a day or more, why?
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

Goody: may I eat Armadilla road kill?

Romans 14 has a Romans 15 following which EXCLUDES all diversity during what Paul called synagogue. Later.

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

ALWAYS there is the PAGAN THESIS (used as patterns by the instrumentalists) and the CHRISTIAN ANTITHESIS. The Jews had a Covenant with death and hell and God abandoned them to worship the STARRY HOST. They had names for the sun, moon and known planets.

Lucifer is Venus, Zoe or EVE. God hid truth in parables from the foundation of the world. Since Eve gets such a bad rap in the New Testament it might help to understand that EVAH is to warn the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai about their Babylon origin. Evah means ABOMINATION and Eve was then and now worshipped as the MEDIATRIX. Lucifer is the PAGAN thesis while Jesus is the ANTITHESIS. Christ in Isaiah did NOT say that Jesus was the real Lucifer.

Is. 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Is. 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, [harps and lances]
......saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Is. 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
......it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth;
......it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Is. 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we?
......art thou become like unto us?
Is. 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave,
......and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee,
...... and the worms [maggots] cover thee.
Is. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [Dawn is the "mother" of Lucifer}
......how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifer, Venus or Zoe was defined as "The Beast and female instructing principle." That is why so many end-time churches have been confiscated by feminists still letting the preachers and elders be their front men. Since religious music was a mark of the effeminate that may be why so many people cast themselves out of their own synagogue.

The Spirit OF Christ calls the King of Babylon and Tyre the "Singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." I doubt that He wanted to equate LUCIFER to Jesus Christ.

The ONLY worship concept REFUTES the idea that Jesus was Lucifer.

In the VULGATE we have the HISTORIC facts and if the KJV got that right then fine.

Isaiah 14.[12] quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

Lūcĭfer , fĕra, fĕrum, adj. lux-fero, I.light-bringing: “itaque ut apud Graecos Dianam, eamque Luciferam, sic apud nostros Junonem Lucinam in pariendo invocant,” Cic. N. D. 2, 27, 68: “pars Lunae,” Lucr. 5, 726
A the morning-star, the planet Venus: “stella Lucifer interdiu, noctu Hesperus ita circumeunt,” Varr. R. R. 3, 5, 17: stella Veneris, quae phōsphor-os Graece, Latine dicitur Lucifer, cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Hesperos, Cic. N. D. 2, 20, 53: “si dormire incipis ortu Luciferi,” Juv. 8, 12; 13, 158; cf. Plin. 2, 8, 6, § 36; Tib. 1, 10 (9), 62; Ov. Tr. 1, 3, 71.—
BThe fabled son of Aurora and Cephalus, and father of Ceyx, Ov. M. 11, 271; 346; “acc. to others,” a son of Jupiter

phōsphor-osA. [select] bringing or giving light, “Heōs” E.Ion1157; ph. astēr, of Dionysus at the mysteries, Ar.Ra.342 , Venus
II. Torch-bearing, epith. of certain deities, esp. of Hecate, “hiereus Phōsphorōn” Hesperia 4.49 (Athens, ii A. D.).
III phōsphoros, hē, torch-bearer, title of a priestess, “Kleopatras theas”

Hespĕrus
a). The Hesperides, daughters of Hesperus, or of Erebus and Nox, who, on an island beyond Mount Atlas, watched a garden with golden apples, Hesperidum serpens,” Juv. 14, 114.—

It takes about a decade for the SERPENTS to creep instruments into a peaceable church:

serpo B. Transf., of things, to move slowly or imperceptibly, to creep along, proceed gradually, căno , cĕcĭni, cantum (ancient
I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.
A. Of men: “si absurde canat,”

posthuman · Apr 5, 2014

KSublett said:

can you be thankful for it when you do?

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

Absolutely: I say thank you all day! Especially my 80 year old bride just back after nursing a daughter for three weeks. She groans but she cleans up MY messy kitchen. Now, I need to check out the lawnmower to get her ready for summer.

posthuman · Apr 5, 2014

But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.”
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
(2 Corinthians 1:18-22)

Christ has not redeemed us into a greater bondage.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8:36)

you can speak condemnation, but i will say "amen!!"
for we know who our accuser is, but our defender is much greater!

posthuman · Apr 5, 2014

KSublett said:

i hope you do!
i haven't seen you say it once in the forums yet, but each day He renews us

so eat all the roadkill you like. 'everything created by God is good and is to be accepted if you can receive it with thankfulness'

posthuman · Apr 5, 2014

Pie said:

not to mention using the internet -- i mean, here we are using mechanical devices to fellowship, praise, worship and encourage each other, right? the greatest part of the internet is porn! so is it wicked for us to take it captive and use it for God's glory?

if we accept this way of thinking, weren't all of the gospel writers also under condemnation by it for using a mechanical device like papyrus & stylus to spread the Word?

it's ridiculous, and the extent to which OT scripture is twisted and maligned to justify it is ghastly.

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

I Say AMEN to that the GOSPEL IS "Come to me all ye that are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you REST." This freedom FROM then invites us to go OUTSIDE the gates or came and COME LEARN OF ME.

A laded burden includes all of the SONGS OR INSTRUMENTS "which create spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Paul outlaws SELF PLEASURE which removes all of the hypocritic arts and crafts. THEN, we can obey the direct command "to use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning."

Clay Tablets grasped that instrumental sounds of clangs and twangs ATTACK the emotions and that is why they were used by the JUBAL group to force YOU to pay for all of the animals God gave you FREE OF CHARGE.

REST is PAUO and means STOP the speaking, singing, playing, acting all defined as PANIC. These are LEGALISTIC BURDENS which irritates probably half of the paying audience and musical performance is the MOST WORKS INTENSIVE thing you can do. Most churches spend about 50 thousand dollars to convert THEIR (newly confiscated) church into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT.

The Lord is in his holy temple ONLY when we come before him in silence. NOT beginning to be forced to do what people have NEVER done by direct command from the wilderness onward is NOT being legalistic. SECTARIANS are defined only as those who IMPOSE something.

KSublett · Apr 5, 2014

Nothing makes sense when you fail to grasp that Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) is A School of the Word only. It was
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing including any self-speak beyond the word.
INCLUSIVE of Rest (from ceremonies), Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God delivered to sub groups as small as then families (Exodus 18)

No internet or Ipads while GIVING ATTENTION to the Word of God in School. No writting: Jesus called the Scribes, hypocrites meaning "speakers, singers and instrument players." Just sit down and hear the word PREACHED by being read for ccomfort and doctrine. DICTO or speak a hymn and GO OUT.

Click for: The Church of Christ (the Rock) or Synagogue from the wilderness onward.

You will never get to read that getting your Phd in once Christian colleges.

posthuman · Apr 5, 2014

KSublett said:

right. like outlawing specific forms of devotion that hundreds of scriptures in the OT teach us are acceptable, and zero scriptures forbid.
gotcha.

no one is "forcing" you to strum a harp, no one is saying "drown out the preacher with music" and i will worship God for much more than 1 hour per week, because all that i am and all that i have is a gift from Him!

Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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