Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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i hope you do!
i haven't seen you say it once in the forums yet, but each day He renews us
so eat all the roadkill you like. 'everything created by God is good and is to be accepted if you can receive it with thankfulness'
i haven't seen you say it once in the forums yet, but each day He renews us
so eat all the roadkill you like. 'everything created by God is good and is to be accepted if you can receive it with thankfulness'
I think one of the hardest scriptures to understand is:
All things are permissible to me, being in and under Christ, were all sins are paid for. And is misused immensely, not understanding the second part of that scripture:
All things are permissible, But not all things are Beneficial.
So what would that mean? I think, this is where one has a conversation with God, and asks, straight up, knowing what one is thinking and possibly been being taken captive in doing what they do not want to do, yet are compelled by Porn and do as Paul talked about in Rom. 7
[h=3]Romans 7:15-25[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do n[SUP] [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ot: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [SUP]20[/SUP]
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
All things are permissible to me, being in and under Christ, were all sins are paid for. And is misused immensely, not understanding the second part of that scripture:
All things are permissible, But not all things are Beneficial.
So what would that mean? I think, this is where one has a conversation with God, and asks, straight up, knowing what one is thinking and possibly been being taken captive in doing what they do not want to do, yet are compelled by Porn and do as Paul talked about in Rom. 7
[h=3]Romans 7:15-25[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do n[SUP] [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ot: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [SUP]20[/SUP]
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
M
What other church is there? Scripture and verse, please?
There is one church, Christ's church! He established it...
Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Any other church is an imposter, including the pope!
There is one church, Christ's church! He established it...
Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Any other church is an imposter, including the pope!
Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don’t argue about doubtful issues.
One person believes he may eat anything, but one who is weak eats only vegetables.
One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat, and one who does not eat must not criticize one who does, because God has accepted him.
Who are you to criticize another’s household slave? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand. For the Lord is able to make him stand.
(Romans 14:1-5)
i don't criticize anyone who by closeness to idolatry or weakness is unable to understand & enjoy music as a supplication before God. i'm sorry if i ever gave that impression; if i did, i repent of it. what i am against is criticizing either the brother that does in such a way make his offering before the Lord.
One person believes he may eat anything, but one who is weak eats only vegetables.
One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat, and one who does not eat must not criticize one who does, because God has accepted him.
Who are you to criticize another’s household slave? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand. For the Lord is able to make him stand.
(Romans 14:1-5)
i don't criticize anyone who by closeness to idolatry or weakness is unable to understand & enjoy music as a supplication before God. i'm sorry if i ever gave that impression; if i did, i repent of it. what i am against is criticizing either the brother that does in such a way make his offering before the Lord.
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M
Then you are messing with scripture!
Matthew 16:18-20 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Refute that!
Matthew 16:18-20 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Refute that!
M
including the man made division whose legal tax name is the "Church of Christ" -- not to be confused with the church that Jesus founded upon Himself, not Peter, which is the Kingdom of God, and whose citizens are found in every nation, tongue and people, and in congregations of every denomination.
including the man made division whose legal tax name is the "Church of Christ" -- not to be confused with the church that Jesus founded upon Himself, not Peter, which is the Kingdom of God, and whose citizens are found in every nation, tongue and people, and in congregations of every denomination.
Those who quote Romans 14 say that "I" have the right to impose instruments and YOU have the "right to get over it or get out." If YOU have the right to impose instruments then YOU are defined as the SECTARIAN because IMPOSING is the only definition of a sectarian. Those who have NEVER used instruments by direct command from the synagogue onward have the right to BUILD a flock and a house but the instrumentalists CONFESS that eminent domain gives them the right to INFILTRATE and divert YOUR property. No one can be the guilty party for refusing to be forced to do something they have never done with Biblical authority.
Along with Scripture, the church fathers and all founders of denominations, Churches of Christ have never imposed or affirmed the use of "machines for doing hard work mostly in making war" because of the SIMPLE FACT that the ekklesia or synagogue in Paul's writings is A SCHOOL OF THE WORD ONLY. Paul forbids "lifeless instruments" or "carnal weapons" before he always defines the TEACHING that which has been taught. Those who want to impose any kind of hypocritic art or craft are institutions of religionism and therefore historically IMPOSE musical performers because the COFFERS run dry.
Scripture demands that we NOT RECEIVE anyone who has a personal preference or wants to dispute beyond "that which is written for our learning." Paul just does not want people who attend SYNAGOGUE as a School (only) of the Word (only) to get uppity about what goes on in the Agora or marketplace. DIET was just a way to identify a converted Orphic, Dionysic or Phythagorean sect. ALL of the sects were highly addicted to the use of musical instruments used to bring on ecstasy. That's why ARESKOS or PLACEO forbids performance speaking, singing, playing instruments, acting, dancing or anything because the PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH is A School of the Word only.
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in THE faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.
THE WEAK GREEK; -Asthen-ēs , es, weak in the mind 5. Insignificant, “ouk asthenestatos sophistēs Hellēnōn” Hdt.4.95; paltry, “a. sophisma” A.Pr.1011;
Hdt. 4.95 Now the Thracians were a poor and backward people, but this Salmoxis knew Ionian ways and a more advanced way of life than the Thracian; for he had consorted with Greeks, and moreover with one of the greatest Greek teachers, Pythagoras
Aesch. PB 1007 Yet it is a paltry device that prompts your vehemence, for in the foolish-minded mere self-will of itself avails less than anything at all. But if you will not be won to belief by my words
THOSE WHO ARE WEAK:--Sophis-tēs , ou, ho, A. master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, “meletan sophistais prosbalon” Pi.I.5(4).28, cf. Cratin.2; of musicians, “sophistēs . . parapaiōn khelun” [play flute] with modal words added, Prietly person Making Melody in the Assembly “hoi s. tōn hierōn melōn” Ael.NA11.1 Apollōnos[Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon] poiētai, humnous idekaisuggrapheis, compose a speech
The WEAK Latin in-firmusless nourishing, Of things, of no weight or consequence, weak, trivial, inconclusive: II. Trop., weak in mind or character, superstitious, pusillanimous, inconstant, light-minded: “tenuis atque infirmi haec animi videri,” Caes. B. C. 1, 32: “quippe minuti Semper et infirmi est animi voluptas ultio,” [passonate] Juv. 13, 190:
------vŏluptas, satisfaction, enjoyment, pleasure, delightanofficerintheimperialhousehold,” master of the revels, Suet. Tib. 42 fin.—
A. Of persons, as a term of endearment: “mea voluptas,” my joy, my charmer,
B. Voluptates, sports, shows, spectacles, given to the people, Cic. Mur. 35, 74: “ne "Are you asking employment as a pimp from a band of luxurious youths" minimo quidem temporis voluptates intermissae,” Tac. H. 3, 83; C. The desire for pleasure, bent, passion: “suam voluptatemexplere,” Ter. Hec. 1, 1, 12; cf. Plaut. Am. prol. 19;
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things
......which make for peace, and things
......wherewith one may edify another.
......-Aedĭfĭcātĭo
(a). Absol.: “loquitur ad aedificationem,” Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 3; 14, 26.—
(b). With gen.: “ad aedificationem Ecclesiae,” Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 12; ib. Eph. 4, 12.
......1Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
The Ekklesia or Synagogue accepts ONLY those who are physically weak: not the SOPHISTS.
Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
and not to please ourselves.
Asthen-ēma , atos, to, *A.weakness, ailment,Arist.GA726a15, Gp.1.12.27(pl.); weakness of conscience,
Areskō appease, conciliate 3. after Hom., c. dat. pers., please, satisfy,oute gar moi Polukratēs ēreske despozōn express the opinion or resolution of a public body, also of prevailing opinions, the dogmas of philosophers, please, gratify, join or mass together.
Aduna^t-os , unable to do a thing, without strength, powerless, weakly, disabled for service, whether as invalids or paupers, poor
Along with Scripture, the church fathers and all founders of denominations, Churches of Christ have never imposed or affirmed the use of "machines for doing hard work mostly in making war" because of the SIMPLE FACT that the ekklesia or synagogue in Paul's writings is A SCHOOL OF THE WORD ONLY. Paul forbids "lifeless instruments" or "carnal weapons" before he always defines the TEACHING that which has been taught. Those who want to impose any kind of hypocritic art or craft are institutions of religionism and therefore historically IMPOSE musical performers because the COFFERS run dry.
Scripture demands that we NOT RECEIVE anyone who has a personal preference or wants to dispute beyond "that which is written for our learning." Paul just does not want people who attend SYNAGOGUE as a School (only) of the Word (only) to get uppity about what goes on in the Agora or marketplace. DIET was just a way to identify a converted Orphic, Dionysic or Phythagorean sect. ALL of the sects were highly addicted to the use of musical instruments used to bring on ecstasy. That's why ARESKOS or PLACEO forbids performance speaking, singing, playing instruments, acting, dancing or anything because the PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH is A School of the Word only.
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in THE faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.
THE WEAK GREEK; -Asthen-ēs , es, weak in the mind 5. Insignificant, “ouk asthenestatos sophistēs Hellēnōn” Hdt.4.95; paltry, “a. sophisma” A.Pr.1011;
Hdt. 4.95 Now the Thracians were a poor and backward people, but this Salmoxis knew Ionian ways and a more advanced way of life than the Thracian; for he had consorted with Greeks, and moreover with one of the greatest Greek teachers, Pythagoras
Aesch. PB 1007 Yet it is a paltry device that prompts your vehemence, for in the foolish-minded mere self-will of itself avails less than anything at all. But if you will not be won to belief by my words
THOSE WHO ARE WEAK:--Sophis-tēs , ou, ho, A. master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, “meletan sophistais prosbalon” Pi.I.5(4).28, cf. Cratin.2; of musicians, “sophistēs . . parapaiōn khelun” [play flute] with modal words added, Prietly person Making Melody in the Assembly “hoi s. tōn hierōn melōn” Ael.NA11.1 Apollōnos[Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon] poiētai, humnous idekaisuggrapheis, compose a speech
The WEAK Latin in-firmusless nourishing, Of things, of no weight or consequence, weak, trivial, inconclusive: II. Trop., weak in mind or character, superstitious, pusillanimous, inconstant, light-minded: “tenuis atque infirmi haec animi videri,” Caes. B. C. 1, 32: “quippe minuti Semper et infirmi est animi voluptas ultio,” [passonate] Juv. 13, 190:
------vŏluptas, satisfaction, enjoyment, pleasure, delightanofficerintheimperialhousehold,” master of the revels, Suet. Tib. 42 fin.—
A. Of persons, as a term of endearment: “mea voluptas,” my joy, my charmer,
B. Voluptates, sports, shows, spectacles, given to the people, Cic. Mur. 35, 74: “ne "Are you asking employment as a pimp from a band of luxurious youths" minimo quidem temporis voluptates intermissae,” Tac. H. 3, 83; C. The desire for pleasure, bent, passion: “suam voluptatemexplere,” Ter. Hec. 1, 1, 12; cf. Plaut. Am. prol. 19;
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things
......which make for peace, and things
......wherewith one may edify another.
(a). Absol.: “loquitur ad aedificationem,” Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 3; 14, 26.—
(b). With gen.: “ad aedificationem Ecclesiae,” Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 12; ib. Eph. 4, 12.
......1Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
The Ekklesia or Synagogue accepts ONLY those who are physically weak: not the SOPHISTS.
Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
and not to please ourselves.
Asthen-ēma , atos, to, *A.weakness, ailment,Arist.GA726a15, Gp.1.12.27(pl.); weakness of conscience,
Areskō appease, conciliate 3. after Hom., c. dat. pers., please, satisfy,oute gar moi Polukratēs ēreske despozōn express the opinion or resolution of a public body, also of prevailing opinions, the dogmas of philosophers, please, gratify, join or mass together.
Aduna^t-os , unable to do a thing, without strength, powerless, weakly, disabled for service, whether as invalids or paupers, poor
M
I love it when people try to prove their knowledge using Greek which as is dead as latin.
Referring to your scripture regarding Romans:
Matthew 16:18-20 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Referring to your scripture regarding Romans:
Matthew 16:18-20 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
People who IMPOSE machines as a FEATURE of Pan worship on High Mountain on Mount Hermon use GREEK out of McGuffy's Lexicon. I think that seeing how words are USED must be important unless you are "guided beyond the sacred pages."
Now, explain from Websters DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS.
People get FLEECED by the FLEECERS to take a few courses of GREEK. NO! There is a country called GREECE??
And Latin is required to speak English. Being a DEAD language HELPS because we can go back and attend synagogue 101a and understand what SCRIPTURE SAYS. Paul's father probably spoke Latin and His mother maybe Syriac.
We wonder how we read english without having learnd definitions hundreds of years old? Do we need to know the meaning of THIS ROCK? Well it was/is a huge flat rock in front of the cave temple of PAN called the GATES OF HELL: I have pictures.
How about CHURCH since it is not a Biblical Word? What means CHURCH?
Now, explain from Websters DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS.
People get FLEECED by the FLEECERS to take a few courses of GREEK. NO! There is a country called GREECE??
And Latin is required to speak English. Being a DEAD language HELPS because we can go back and attend synagogue 101a and understand what SCRIPTURE SAYS. Paul's father probably spoke Latin and His mother maybe Syriac.
We wonder how we read english without having learnd definitions hundreds of years old? Do we need to know the meaning of THIS ROCK? Well it was/is a huge flat rock in front of the cave temple of PAN called the GATES OF HELL: I have pictures.
How about CHURCH since it is not a Biblical Word? What means CHURCH?
You are welcome I am sure. Posthumerous posted all of those "instrument" phrases justifying instruments and I responded with all of the CONTEXT. I warned and warned that when you tamper with the WORD God gladly sends strong delusions so you believe your own lies to be damned. In the Bible and contemperous literature it was well known that music is like CRACK: once you make the connection between the sounds of music and GOD you are instantly hard wired and you will never get unwired.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thess. 2:8
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thess. 2:9
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (tramps, erratic teachers, roving stars), that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess. 2:11
Delusions always come with deluders:
Plane (g4106) plan'-ay; fem. of 4108 (as abstr.); obj. fraudulence; subj. a straying from orthodoxy or piety: - deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.
Planos (g4108) plan'-os; of uncert. affin.; roving (as a tramp), i.e. (by impl.) an impostor or misleader: - deceiver, seducing.
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess. 2:12Planos (g4108) plan'-os; of uncert. affin.; roving (as a tramp), i.e. (by impl.) an impostor or misleader: - deceiver, seducing.
- The Greek: Teratourg-eô , A. WORK wonders, pseudôsti Sch.Pi.I.7(6).13.
Pindar Odes: [1] In which of the local glories of the past, divinely blessed Thebe, did you most delight your spirit? Was it when you raised to eminence the one seated beside Demeter of the clashing bronze cymbals, flowing-haired [5] Dionysus? Or when you received, as a snow-shower of gold in the middle of the night, the greatest of the gods[20] then begin the victory [Nike: TRIUMPH OVER] procession with a sweet-singing hymn for Strepsiades; for he is the victor in the pancratium at the Isthmus, both awesome in his strength and handsome to look at; and he treats excellence as no worse a possession than beauty. [23] He is made radiant by the violet-haired Muses, and he has given a share in his flowering garland to his uncle and namesake
Spectācŭlum I. a show, sight, spectacle, A. Lit., in the theatre, circus, etc., a public sight or show, a stageplay, spectacle,
Scaena , [outlawed as SELF-pleasure in Romans 15 to ENABLE teaching that which is WRITTEN.
2. (Post-Aug.) Of the schools of rhetoric, as scenes for the display of eloquence in scaenas scholasticorum, qui rhetores [meaning of hypocrite] vocantur,
The-ama , A. sight, spectacle, ei tis orchoit' eu, theam' ên Pl.Com.130 ; Opposite mathêma, of a sight which gives pleasure,X.Smp.2.2 , ; orchêseis kai theamata Scaena , [outlawed as SELF-pleasure in Romans 15 to ENABLE teaching that which is WRITTEN.
2. (Post-Aug.) Of the schools of rhetoric, as scenes for the display of eloquence in scaenas scholasticorum, qui rhetores [meaning of hypocrite] vocantur,
Math-êma , atos, to, ( [mathein] )
A. that which is learnt, lesson 2. learning, knowledge
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning [didaskalia], that we through patience and comfort [paraclete] of the scriptures might have hope.
2Timothy 3:7 Ever learning [Mathema], and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
X.Smp.2.2 Xenophon, Symposium II. When the tables had been removed and the guests had poured a libation and sung a hymn, there entered a man from Syracuse, to give them an evening's merriment. He had with him a fine flute-girl, a dancing-girl--one of those skilled in acrobatic tricks,--and a very handsome boy, who was expert at playing the cither and at dancing; the Syracusan made money by exhibiting their performances as a spectacle. [2] They now played for the assemblage, the flute-girl on the flute, the boy on the cither; and it was agreed that both furnished capital amusement.
Thema is OPPOSITE to Learning. LEARNING is the ONLY reason a faithful church of Christ exists.
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