Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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posthuman

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No one thought about congregational singing until after the reformation: no one thought of using the organ to long after the Reformation.

that's baloney.

the protestant reformation happened in the early 1500's; the date usually given is 1517.

the oldest playable pipe organ in the world today is in the Fortress Cathedral in Sion, Switzerland and was built in 1390.

it wasn't the first pipe organ in the world. the first organs date back to 2-300 BC. it's use in Christian worship dates back to around 700 AD

Pliny wrote of Christians meeting together and singing as early as 112 AD.

 
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posthuman

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In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, “Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God.” And again, “Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father.” This is our thankful revelry. And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. “Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright,” says the prophecy. “Confess to the Lord on the harp; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song.” And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad? And as it is befitting, before partaking of food, that we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm “a spiritual song.”

- Clement of Alexandria, circa 200 AD from a treatise titled "How to conduct yourselves at feasts"
 

posthuman

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worship is not a 1-hour-a-week thing. it is to be a continual facet of our lives.
 

Timeline

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God, creator of all things, needs man to enhance worship for Him? many of the things you mention above were in use by the first century church, for example, when Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, why do you suppose it was "on the mount" it was so the multitude could be better "addressed publicly", when Jesus taught from the boat to those on the shore
( Luke 5:1-3 ), why did he get into the boat? it was so he could "publicly address" the people, did the mountain or the boat change what Jesus was saying? did it change his preaching? he used what was expedient of the day, like our microphone, he used a first century public address system.

Does the building make the worship different than that of those in a house? if it does maybe the building has to much bling taking away from the worship.

When Jesus commissioned them to "go into all the world" did he tell them to use a donkey? a horse? no, he said "go" and today we use what is expedient to "go into all the world" cars, trucks buses, planes and walk, does this change what he said to do?
 Mark 16:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.



any split from the Lords church does make them a denomination...



They used incense and animal sacrafice in the OT too, why doesn't your assembly do that? is it because that is not pleasing to your assembly like mechanical instrumental music?

There is no record of the NT church ever using mechanical instrumental music in worship to God, it is brought in by man to please man, people forget who the audience really is.
The Jewish people used instruments throughout the OT and they still use them today. Don't you think it would have come up on one of the letters of the new testament. I believe it didn't come up because they actually had important problems to discuss.
 
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The Jewish people used instruments throughout the OT and they still use them today. Don't you think it would have come up on one of the letters of the new testament. I believe it didn't come up because they actually had important problems to discuss.
If as you say they had more important issues at hand, then why did instruments stop being used? What stopped the use of instruments? Wouldn't they simply go back to doing things as usual and continue to use instruments?
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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You are incorrect. We are born again to obey God's command. Christ died for our sins, but as sinners we must repent, confess and be baptized.
THis is to walk by Faith the same as Chirst showed here while on earth, he did nothing or said nothing unless Father said to, period. And he sent us the same Holy Spirit that led him to lead us into all truth and it is not us now doing any of the work needed, it is Father through us as it was thorugh Christ for us, showing us 100% dependency on Father an no one else

Believe, believe and be made one a gift from God has no work of man involved, for it is impossible with man to enter heaven by law, Just read what Christ said about being under man's law that man took from God and made his own

Matthew 5:28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Are your eyes plucked out yet?

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Hands cut off yet under Law this is what is so stringent and the disciples that heard these things, as they watched even that rich man walk away sad, (Matt. 19) not being able to give up this worlds possessions were finally astonished, annihilated, saw and asked how is it possible to enter Heaven under trying to do what is right by the Law of righteousness, seeing how they were not perfect and if wanted to go to heaven they would end up as Torso's, not being able to be perfect
So they asked?

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You see Christ's answer there Sister, impossible under Law, but not impossible with Father, why?
Was it Christ seeing forward to what his death and resurrection would bring? The new life he said he came to bring in Spirit and truth?
You decide it is all God or not? I see it as it is all God who has through the cross redeemed us, forgiven us of all and any sin, to bring us new life in the Spirit of Father and reside in this new life daily 24/7 in love to all and that is the fulfillment of all Law




Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

homwardbound

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In Romans 6 said that after we obey a FORM of the work of Christ we are FREE from Sin.
The work of Jesus is the TUPOS or Type, a pattern intended to be obeyed.
ANTI-TUPOS is the instrumental means that Jesus gave us in order to be FREE FROM SIN. No one is said to be free from sin simply because they believe that Jesus existed.

Believeth is PISTIS which in the text means to trust in or COMPLY with what we believe.
Those who believe and trust by complying in baptism are those SAID TO BE SAVED.
Believeth not is APISTOS which means a person in revolt or treacherous. They say "I will NOT comply" because YOU cannot save me.
Those who are APISTOS and will not comply are DAMNED.

Christ the Spirit defined baptism in Acts 1 which is almost identical to Mark 16. The eunuch had with him an ISAIAH scroll and as soon as he knew that Jesus was that promised Messiah he REQUESTED to be baptized. A Dead Sea copy exists which might date a hundred or two hundered years before Christ.

ANTI means INSTEAD OF: we can obey the pattern to be imitated and be free from sin OR we can die on the cross for our own sins without any effect. That is why baptism is not a work of the law or work of self-righteousness. It pure grace.

The massed multitude which fights against baptism trust in their OWN "belief" as having power to let them reject the direct command of Jesus as his virtual last command.
Depending on what Baptism you are referring to, as there is only one, and that is Spirit or water?
John said he the water Baptism must decrease and go away, when Christ's Spirit baptism comes into play and that day came to play on Pentecost
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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I am not understanding you.

Jesus said that true worshippers who please God must worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24). We must serve and worship God acceptably with reverence and godly fear (Heb. 12:28).
And when one comes to the end of the energy of their own flesh and give up any and all self works one sees the gift of God through Son and have transferred from death to life and have crucified the flesh, by Faith in the finished work of God through Son, the only way, to truth and life in Spirit by the resurrected Christ. No more focus on whether one sins or not too busy praising and worshiping Father in Spirit and truth, you think, maybe or no that is too easy right, I must work at what is already done per Father through Son, yes or no?
 

posthuman

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If as you say they had more important issues at hand, then why did instruments stop being used? What stopped the use of instruments? Wouldn't they simply go back to doing things as usual and continue to use instruments?
the Jews stopped using instruments when they stopped having a temple to worship in. from David onward, musical instruments and accompanying singing were a part of the ordained worship of God. even before then, song and music were used by the Jews in praise, but after the destruction of the temple, out of reverence & deference to the commandment of God that they worship Him in the temple, in order to differentiate synagogue gatherings where the Word was studied and taught from the supplication to God at the temple, they did not play music & sing in the synagogues. this doesn't mean that the Jews never sang or played music, or considered it a wicked thing - they simply recognized that according to the law, worship was to be performed at the temple, and they had no temple in which to do so.

in the first few hundred years of the church, following after prevailing Jewish tradition, music wasn't an integral part of at least some of their meetings, though there is ample historical evidence that they sang and rejoiced together. Christ himself with the disciples sang psalms. the absence of mention of lyres or lutes or whatever in the scant available historical documents isn't evidence that they were never used. if i tell you "we sang around the campfire" you may take it for granted that someone strummed a guitar or beat a drum, or it may be have been a-capella. just because i do not mention it specifically doesn't mean that no such instrument was present. singing and music are so commonly interwoven that there is often no distinction made. if you say "i heard a song.." you don't need to mention a list of instruments in order for me to imagine that the song was accompanied by music. in fact, quite the opposite, if you heard a song without music you would be compelled to mention that, because it is the uncommon case.

there's plenty of discussion in the epistles about Judaizing influence on the thinking of the early believers, and many if not most of the first converts were themselves Jewish. Paul taught in the synagogues and probably many early gatherings of believers were both in synagogues and in private homes & attended by strict orthodox Jews. early Christian congregational habits followed after Jewish traditions because firstly so many of the early believers were Jewish converts, and secondly because Jews wanting to impose their law and tradition on gentiles followed the apostles around distorting Paul's teachings and corrupting the gospel. much of Paul's epistles deal with this influence and none of it speak s favorably of this influence. rather, Paul emphasized freedom that doesn't lead to licentiousness.

now the Jews stopped using instruments in praise because the teachers of the law forbade it in conjunction with the absence of the temple. Jesus had plenty to say about the teachers of the law; i'll leave you to think about that. there is no recorded command in scripture forbidding music. there is recorded scriptures warning against false teachers arising in the last days who would add laws and restrictions contrary to God's word. the apostle calls such men "following after the teachings of demons."
 

homwardbound

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Christ in the prophets warned about the Lying Pen of the Scribes in their writing about the Temple: He called the Scribes, hypocrites by quoting Ezekiel 33 who named self-speakers for hire (hirelings), singers and instrument players. ALL national histories would include the Civil-Military-Clergy complex in opposition to the Spiritual people taught by Christ in the Prophets but NEVER the kings. The Patriarchs or first born sons led the tribes until the fatal fall into instrumental idolatry at Mount Sinai; then and later God GAVE THEM KINGS IN HIS ANGER to carry out the captivity and death sentence. Those OF the world will use the Worship of the Starry host and reject the Creator of the Hosts. Sorry bout that.

NO historic scholar failed to read Isaiah and Jeremiah to have the testimony of Christ that God did not COMMAND king, kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices or the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites as soothsayers to stand in ranks and warning people that they would be executed if they came inside the gates. Here is a more modern scholar who missed preach. Burton Coffman notes that.
The great Cambridge scholar, Henry McKeating, has the following comment on this passage from Hosea:

"Hosea is not only antagonistic to the northern kings but to the monarchy as such. The monarchy is powerless to save the nation. Israel was wrong to ask for a king. Her punishment was that she got what she asked." 7: Henry McKeating, Amos, Hosea, and Micah (Cambridge: University Press, 1971), p. 148.

Coffman: "We are aware that it is popular among many able commentators today to make apologies for Israel'smonarchy and to apply what the Scriptures plainly say about it to some specific monarch, Saul, for example, as did Dummelow, or to the kings of Northern Israel as did Hailey;

but it is the conviction of this writer that
Israel was
totally and completely wrong in asking a king and that this rejection of God (that is what the text calls it) contained embryonically all of the later sorrows of the Chosen People. Throughout the whole history of Israel, there were very few monarchs who even tried to serve the Lord. Solomon was to be blamed for the division of the kingdom under his son, because the people simply rejected the excesses of Solomon; and yet, even after God took the monarchy away from them, the nation wanted nothing in heaven or on earth as much as they wanted the restoration of that scandalous Solomonic empire.
It was this, more than anything else,

that motivated theirrejection of God Himself,
finally and irrevocably,

in their rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ the Holy One.


Go down the list of Israel's kings, David, the very best of all of them, was an adulterer and a murderer; and he also corrupted the worship of God by two sinful things:

(1) his initiating the events that led to the building of the temple (the den of thieves and robbers in Jesus' times); and
(2) his introduction of instruments of music into the worship of God.We do not have the space here to outline all of the misdeeds of Israel's shameful monarchy, but it is clear enough that God's disapproval of the monarchy was no late thing, applicable only to the phantom kings of Ephraim's final years, but it rested upon the monarchy from the very beginning of it as outlined in this chapter.

If God had ever approved of it, He would never have taken it away from them! Nevertheless, God accommodated to the sinful conduct of His people and in many specific instances blessed the kings of Israel,

So, bottom line do you reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God? through the cross of Christ?
 

posthuman

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if anyone says "we don't want to use instrumental music in our worship service because we think it takes away from a focus on God"
i completely respect that and in a lot of cases completely agree with it.

the only problem i have in this thread is saying that music is expressly forbidden for use in worship & praise or is completely unacceptable as a devotion or supplication to God. the Bible doesn't support that view at all and the Old Testament example expressly refutes it.
 

homwardbound

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If all preached Christ right, then why do they contradict each other at every turn?

Jesus once said "Thy word is truth"

Truth does not contradict itself as all the various religious groups do, so that is all the proof I need to know they do not all have the truth of God. Satan is the father of lies, contradictions are wrapped in lies, so Satan LOVES the contradictions that exist for he knows God's truth can NEVER be found in all the contradictions.
Thy word is Christ's Father's word; not man's and Father's word is love which is the greatest of all commands
The contradiction is the same:
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The same battle is at hand to this very day Flesh verse the Spirit of God. God does not verse the flesh, God loves us so much that God sent Son to redeem us and by Son through the cross we are redeemed, no ands ifs or buts here, truth is truth; it is finished, we are forgiven by Son, thus presented to Father as perfect through Son to receive from Father new life right here right now; in Spirit and truth period, that simple and man flesh has complicated the truth to stop man from believing God and continue to work for what Christ already gave to us through his death for us.
 

homwardbound

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Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

By the Spirit OF Christ. 1 Peter 1:11; 2 Corinthians 3; Revelation 19:10

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God made all things by His Word, Logos or Regulative Principle or Governing PRINCIPLE.
God's Word is PERSONIFIED when the Father BREATHES (Spirit) and the Son Articulates.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
......that God [Theos] hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
......both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.
1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,
who OF God is MADE unto us wisdom, [Sophia or Spirit to the Jews]
...... and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Corinthians 5:21 For he hath MADE him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
......THAT we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, [Confidence]
......and upholding all things by the WORD of his power,
......when he had by himself purged our sins,
.....sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Isaiah 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:
...... And the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no INTERCESSOR:
...... therefore his ARM brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isaiah 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head;
...... and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

When the man Jesus of Nazareth was MADE to be God's Creative power:

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,
...... as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
...... Thou art my Son, this day have I BEGOTTEN thee?
...... And again, I will be TO HIM him a Father, and he shall be TO ME a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the FIRST BEGOTTEN into the world, he saith,
...... And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God,
...... is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The Throne is GOD'S Throne, the Son was MADE TO BE PRIEST AND KING ON GOD'S THRONE

This was not the throne of Jesus but the throne of God He occupied for a time.

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order:
...... Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end,
...... when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
...... when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet.
...... But when he saith, all things are put under him,
...... it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
...... then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
...... under him,
hat God may be all in all.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;
...... therefore God, even THY God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
...... and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hebrews 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed:
...... but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand,
...... until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The Throne of GOD was "shared" with the Son for the duration of the Church of Christ seeking out lost spirits.
God sent His Right Hand or Arm as HIS intercessor: it is logical but parabolic that God's RIGHT hand return to the RIGHT of the Magesty on high.

Jesus said that parables are to HIDE the Word from the merchantile class OF THE WORLD from the foundation of the World. God HIDES from the wise or Sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers and players. Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: in Ezekiel 33 the Spirit OF Christ named self-speakers for hire, singers, instrument players and their congregatioln.
So please reveal to where and what the true Church is? Is it here on earth or in Heaven?
 

Timeline

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If as you say they had more important issues at hand, then why did instruments stop being used? What stopped the use of instruments? Wouldn't they simply go back to doing things as usual and continue to use instruments?

I do not study history in depth. I like to keep my bible studies in the bible. I am not aware that they did or did not stop using instruments. But Rome destroying the place would probably interfere with instrument use. Nevertheless, there were plenty of chances for Peter, Paul, and John to mention how God hates instruments and an explanation as to why it had never come up before.
 
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the Jews stopped using instruments when they stopped having a temple to worship in. from David onward, musical instruments and accompanying singing were a part of the ordained worship of God. even before then, song and music were used by the Jews in praise, but after the destruction of the temple, out of reverence & deference to the commandment of God that they worship Him in the temple, in order to differentiate synagogue gatherings where the Word was studied and taught from the supplication to God at the temple, they did not play music & sing in the synagogues. this doesn't mean that the Jews never sang or played music, or considered it a wicked thing - they simply recognized that according to the law, worship was to be performed at the temple, and they had no temple in which to do so.

in the first few hundred years of the church, following after prevailing Jewish tradition, music wasn't an integral part of at least some of their meetings, though there is ample historical evidence that they sang and rejoiced together. Christ himself with the disciples sang psalms. the absence of mention of lyres or lutes or whatever in the scant available historical documents isn't evidence that they were never used. if i tell you "we sang around the campfire" you may take it for granted that someone strummed a guitar or beat a drum, or it may be have been a-capella. just because i do not mention it specifically doesn't mean that no such instrument was present. singing and music are so commonly interwoven that there is often no distinction made. if you say "i heard a song.." you don't need to mention a list of instruments in order for me to imagine that the song was accompanied by music. in fact, quite the opposite, if you heard a song without music you would be compelled to mention that, because it is the uncommon case.

there's plenty of discussion in the epistles about Judaizing influence on the thinking of the early believers, and many if not most of the first converts were themselves Jewish. Paul taught in the synagogues and probably many early gatherings of believers were both in synagogues and in private homes & attended by strict orthodox Jews. early Christian congregational habits followed after Jewish traditions because firstly so many of the early believers were Jewish converts, and secondly because Jews wanting to impose their law and tradition on gentiles followed the apostles around distorting Paul's teachings and corrupting the gospel. much of Paul's epistles deal with this influence and none of it speak s favorably of this influence. rather, Paul emphasized freedom that doesn't lead to licentiousness.

now the Jews stopped using instruments in praise because the teachers of the law forbade it in conjunction with the absence of the temple. Jesus had plenty to say about the teachers of the law; i'll leave you to think about that. there is no recorded command in scripture forbidding music. there is recorded scriptures warning against false teachers arising in the last days who would add laws and restrictions contrary to God's word. the apostle calls such men "following after the teachings of demons."
Do you not accept the fact that there are commands that say we are to sing only, like Ephesians 5:19and Colossians 3:16 I was talking to a friend on here and he reminded me of the Gentiles refused to use instruments also.. What do you think of the two commands I mentioned on not using instruments, or do you feel they say something other than singing only? Some say there's authorization for the use of instruments, well when was that put in the bible, because I know for a fact that nothing has changed to say that. Some say it's because of cultural change, when did God allow for instruments because of cultural change, I say he didn't. So since the bible hasn't changed and we obeyed God in the past by not using instruments in worship, by what authority are they using now? This is clearly the fault of elders allowing smooth talking brothers to sway these elders into allowing instruments in worship instead of being steadfast they allowed the devil to have his way. Mass confusion in the Churches of Christ have caused many weak in the faith to lose their soul by going to a denomination church because of this. Many people desiring to become a Christian and place fellowship with the CoC are now concerned about whether or not to place membership with us because of this and they to end up possibly going to a man made church. This has caused a serious problem and no doubt some souls will and have been lost because of these elders not doing their job.
 

posthuman

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Do you not accept the fact that there are commands that say we are to sing only, like Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16
neither one of those verses command us to "sing only"

they encourage us to use "psalms and hymns" to edify and encourage one another. reading "sing only" into those verses is adding law & tradition to the scripture that isn't borne out by the context or the rest of the written revelation of God.

the verse does not read "do not use musical instruments" -- that's a human addition.
 

posthuman

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Mass confusion in the Churches of Christ have caused many weak in the faith to lose their soul by going to a denomination church because of this.

are you saying no one that is not a member of this human-made division of the true Church of God can be saved?

i believe that is patently false. Jesus never told me "all who declare themselves members of a denomination to be started in 1906 will be saved and no one else can possibly be"
 

posthuman

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This has caused a serious problem and no doubt some souls will and have been lost because of these elders not doing their job.

what has become a serious problem is putting music or the lack thereof before God.

if you believe jangling a tambourine or not defines your standing before the Lord, i got news for ya:

it doesn't. Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life, and there is no other. the commandment is to rejoice and be glad in Him, not "thou shalt not strike a chord"

now when i rejoice, i can't help but make a noise, and sing, and God has given me a gift for percussion, and i will use it for His glory.

how do you​ rejoice?
 
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The issue is the heart. Does man in his heart respect and follow God's word and sing s God commanded NT Christians, or does man reject what God said and follow his own heart and devices?

You posted yourself "if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will"

Worshippers doeth God's will and sing, worshippers do not do their own will and play.
Fifty-eight Psalms bear the designation (Hebrew) mizmor (Greek psalmos, a Psalm), a lyric ode, or a song set to music; a sacred song accompanied with a musical instrument.
 
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