Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[LT]

You will not find "work produced by faith" anywhere in the Bible... and if you quote 1 Thess. 1:3 out of the abomination NIV I challenge you to prove the insertion of "produced by" in the Greek.

So you agree faith is a work and salvation is not possible without works.

sry, but τῆς does not mean what you think it means. The faith is not the work, but faith is where the work is from.

 

[And]

Salvation is impossible without works





Thoughts on faith and works'

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel ...offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch ... pleased God.




Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, ...obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.



Heb 11:9 By faith ihe sojourned




Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:


Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, ... blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.


Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, ... gave commandment concerning his bones.


Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents,


Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused ... Choosing rather ...




Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt,


Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land:
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, ...


Faith is an actio word

Faith without works is DEAD

We dont need works to be saved?
that is a bald faced lie.

Faith always works by love and obedience to all God says

He says do not steal
have fatih!
he says in the WHOLE BIBLE keep the sevemnth day Sabbath.
Obey
He says love God with all your heart and soul and mind

that means Bible time not television time.

Works will not save you
lack of works will not save you either

commandment keeping will not save you
commandment breaking will not save you wither.

Jesus saves!
His blood saves

and the ones his blood saves are the obedient ones
his blood does NOT SAVE THE DISOBEDIENT

the whole Bible tells you that from genesis to revelation'

Check it out!

 

[LT]

GRK:Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τῆς Ἰσαάκ
INT: Abraham was father of Issac

There is always a direction of flow when using articles like τῆς and τὸν

 

[Jabberjaw]

sry, but τῆς does not mean what you think it means. The faith is not the work, but faith is where the work is from.

Sorry, but I can't take your word for that, produce one lexicon that translates της as "produced" or "from", I can't wait for that...

 

[Jabberjaw]

GRK:Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τῆς Ἰσαάκ
INT: Abraham was father of Issac

There is always a direction of flow when using articles like τῆς and τὸν

And the Citation?

 

[Vaudeville]

You will not find "work produced by faith" anywhere in the Bible... and if you quote 1 Thess. 1:3 out of the abomination NIV I challenge you to prove the insertion of "produced by" in the Greek.

oh my goodness. a KJV man are you?

Galatians 5
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

well there's faith working by love. does that counteth?

So you agree faith is a work and salvation is not possible without works.

no.

work
ergon

ἔργον, ἔργου, τό, anciently Φεργον (German Werk, (English work; cf. Vanicek, p. 922)); the Sept. forפֹּעַל, עֲבֹדָה and countless times for מְלָאכָה and מַעֲשֶׂה; work, i. e.

1. business, employment, that with which anyone is occupied: Mark 13:34 (διδόναι τίνι τό ἔργοναὐτοῦ); Acts 14:26 (πληροῦν); 1 Timothy 3:1; thus of the work of salvation committed by God to Christ:διδόναι and τελειουν, John 17:4; of the work to be done by the apostles and other Christian teachers, as well as by the presiding officers of the religious assemblies, Acts 13:2; Acts 15:38; 1 Thessalonians 5:13;Philippians 1:22; τό ἔργον τίνος, genitive of the subjunctive, the work which one does, service which one either performs or ought to perform, 1 Thessalonians 5:13; ἔργον ποιεῖν τίνος to do the work of one (i. e. incumbent upon him), εὐαγγελιστοῦ, 2 Timothy 4:5; τό ἔργον τίνος i. e. assigned by one and to be done for his sake: τό ἔργον τοῦ Θεοῦ τελειουν, used of Christ, John 4:34; (τοῦ) Χριστοῦ (WHtext Tr marginal reading κυρίου), Philippians 2:30; τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Corinthians 15:58; 1 Corinthians 16:10; with genitive of thing, εἰς ἔργον διακονίας, Ephesians 4:12, which means either to the work in which the ministry consists, the work performed in undertaking the ministry, or to the execution of the ministry. of that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking: Acts 5:38 (Deuteronomy 15:10; Wis. 2:12).

[of] faith
πίστεως
pisteōs
94 times in the nt. look them up.

 

[Vaudeville]

Sorry, but I can't take your word for that, produce one lexicon that translates της as "produced" or "from", I can't wait for that...

Englishmen's Thayer's and Green's Interlinear. use them they are your friends.
your KJV is holding you back.

 

[LT]

Sorry, but I can't take your word for that, produce one lexicon that translates της as "produced" or "from", I can't wait for that...

I'm sorry, but your problem is in English, not Greek.

'work of faith' can be taken 3 ways. one of them contradicts several other portions of Scripture, yet that is the way you chose to read it. well done.

I should have saved my time and ignored you when you trolled me on that other thread.

 

[Hoffco]

"follow after holiness without which no one will see God" True righteousness of life is better than the false works of righteousness produced by self worship. Grace produces a true justice and mercy and love for others and for self. Faith trusts solely on the work of Christ and comes before the good works. The obedient love that Jesus demands comes as a gift of God's saving, freeing and enslaving grace. We are are freed from sin and enslaved to God, so we have holy works which lead to eternal life. Rom. 6:22-23 Love to all, Hofffco

 

[Jabberjaw]

oh my goodness. a KJV man are you?

actually I like the NKJV, but I don't care what English version you find, 1 Thess 1:3 will never be translated "work produced by faith" except in your abomination NIV.

Galatians 5
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

well there's faith working by love. does that counteth?

Yes, but not for you because that proves faith is a work.

no.

work
ergon

ἔργον, ἔργου, τό, anciently Φεργον (German Werk, (English work; cf. Vanicek, p. 922)); the Sept. forפֹּעַל, עֲבֹדָה and countless times for מְלָאכָה and מַעֲשֶׂה; work, i. e.

1. business, employment, that with which anyone is occupied: Mark 13:34 (διδόναι τίνι τό ἔργοναὐτοῦ); Acts 14:26 (πληροῦν); 1 Timothy 3:1; thus of the work of salvation committed by God to Christ:διδόναι and τελειουν, John 17:4; of the work to be done by the apostles and other Christian teachers, as well as by the presiding officers of the religious assemblies, Acts 13:2; Acts 15:38; 1 Thessalonians 5:13;Philippians 1:22; τό ἔργον τίνος, genitive of the subjunctive, the work which one does, service which one either performs or ought to perform, 1 Thessalonians 5:13; ἔργον ποιεῖν τίνος to do the work of one (i. e. incumbent upon him), εὐαγγελιστοῦ, 2 Timothy 4:5; τό ἔργον τίνος i. e. assigned by one and to be done for his sake: τό ἔργον τοῦ Θεοῦ τελειουν, used of Christ, John 4:34; (τοῦ) Χριστοῦ (WHtext Tr marginal reading κυρίου), Philippians 2:30; τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Corinthians 15:58; 1 Corinthians 16:10; with genitive of thing, εἰς ἔργον διακονίας, Ephesians 4:12, which means either to the work in which the ministry consists, the work performed in undertaking the ministry, or to the execution of the ministry. of that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking: Acts 5:38 (Deuteronomy 15:10; Wis. 2:12).

[of] faith
πίστεως
pisteōs
94 times in the nt. look them up.

So what is your point here? I see no place where της is translated "produced" or "from", throw that NIV away.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I'm sorry, but your problem is in English, not Greek.

'work of faith' can be taken 3 ways. one of them contradicts several other portions of Scripture, yet that is the way you chose to read it. well done.

I should have saved my time and ignored you when you trolled me on that other thread.

And you seem to have another opinion backed by what scripture?

You should have ignored me with nothing more than opinion.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Englishmen's Thayer's and Green's Interlinear. use them they are your friends.
your KJV is holding you back.

I see everything but your quote, and I won't because you will not find a lexicon that translates της as "produced", throw away your NIV

 

[VCO]

If you were "saved" without "obeying" then at what point did you repent? before or after you were saved?

Yes, every day, especially before I lay my head down at night.

Yes, every day, especially before I lay my head down at night.

REPENTANCE rushes into your heart at the moment of Salvation, because bringing you to repentance is a Work of the Holy Spirit. For me it all happened the night after my third attempt at suicide, after being told by my wife of 6 months, "I want a divorce" on Christmas Eve. The following week is when I attempted suicide three times. After that third attempt, something in me broke. I think it was the PRIDE of running my own life my own way. Suddenly, this RUSH of GUILT overwhelmed me, not just for attempting suicide, but for my whole lifestyle. OH HOW SHAMEFULLY GUILTY I FELT ABOUT MY WHOLE LIFESTYLE. That rush of GUILT instantly crushed any remaining pride out of me. I had instantly fallen to my knees and was LITERALLY crying uncontrollably, mourning over my sinfulness. Sobbing, I cried out, "LORD FORGIVE ME, if you have a purpose for my life, you are going to have to come into it, and run my life. I can't do it, YOU are going to have to do it in me." NO ONE IN THE CHURCH I GREW UP IN, EVER TAUGHT ME TO PRAY A PRAYER LIKE THAT. I absolutely believe the HOLY SPIRIT gave me that prayer when I needed it most. Immediately (within seconds) came that vision I told you about, were I was at the Cross weeping, and as I looked up at HIM, I saw several blood drops fall, and to my shock felt the warmth of them as splashed on my forearms that were raised to HIM. I don't expect you to believe that, but it was EXTREMELY REAL TO ME, and it changed me forever.

How do I know that mourning over one's sinfulness (repentance) is linked to the Born Again experience:

Revelation 3:19-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Matthew 5:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Those who mourn are blessed, for they will be comforted.

James 4:9-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Ezekiel 24:23 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] You will keep your turbans on your heads and your sandals on your feet. You will not mourn or weep but will waste away because of your sins and groan among yourselves.

Prior to that I only knew who Jesus was, but even the demons know that much. After that, I now KNOW HIM with an inner personal LOVE, that brings me to submit to HIM as LORD and MASTER. HE IS IN ME, and I AM IN HIM.

I am glad you answered yes to both of my questions, and I pray it is real.
God can forgive not understanding the finished work of Jesus Christ.
But God cannot forgive rejecting the Holy Spirit's efforts to bring you to believe and receive Jesus as LORD and Master.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Prior to that I only knew who Jesus was, but even the demons know that much. After that, I now KNOW HIM with an inner personal LOVE, that brings me to submit to HIM as LORD and MASTER. HE IS IN ME, and I AM IN HIM.

I am glad you answered yes to both of my questions, and I pray it is real.
God can forgive not understanding the finished work of Jesus Christ.
But God cannot forgive rejecting the Holy Spirit's efforts to bring you to believe and receive Jesus as LORD and Master.

you said "Prior to that I only knew who Jesus was, but even the demons know that much."

James 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Acts 19:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"

Mark 5:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."

So you believed in Jesus, you just like the demons that did in fact obey, they came out of the man on His command, notice they also did "confess Jesus is the Son of God", so two commands they obeyed, yet we know they are not saved, therefore more righteous work is required yet, they must "repent" and "be baptized".

You cannot "know Jesus" and not "believe" it is impossible to repent and believe at the same simultaneous moment in time, you have to first believe to know you have to repent, yet your doctrine has no room for repentance after belief because your doctrine has you saved at the moment of belief putting an un-repentant sinner in a saved position, therefore you have to put repentance before you believe, and have again another problem, without belief you don't know what to repent of.

So you see, you cannot believe without first hearing, you cannot repent without first believing, your doctrine puts you in an impossible position of being saved sinner.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sry, but τῆς does not mean what you think it means. The faith is not the work, but faith is where the work is from.

it just goes to show you how people will interpret scripture to fit their belief, and not interpret scripture with scripture.

It is obvious the work is the result of faith, the labor is the result of love, and the patience is the result of hope.

we know this, because without faith, there will be no work
without love, we will not labor (serve others)
and without hope, we will have no patience.

 

[Jabberjaw]

it just goes to show you how people will interpret scripture to fit their belief, and not interpret scripture with scripture.

It is obvious the work is the result of faith, the labor is the result of love, and the patience is the result of hope.

we know this, because without faith, there will be no work
without love, we will not labor (serve others)
and without hope, we will have no patience.

So then you agree that faith is conditional on work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then you agree that faith is conditional on work.

no, I would not agree with this at all.

Work is conditional on faith.

saying faith is conditional on work is like saying fuel in the fuel tank is conditional on an engine running, and not an engine running conditional on fuel in the fuel tank.

Work is not the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, Faith is. It is what produces the work (trust in God and what he says)

 

[Jabberjaw]

no, I would not agree with this at all.

Work is conditional on faith.

saying faith is conditional on work is like saying fuel in the fuel tank is conditional on an engine running, and not an engine running conditional on fuel in the fuel tank.

Work is not the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, Faith is. It is what produces the work (trust in God and what he says)

In an automobile, the engine running is conditional on fuel in the tank (if you figure out how to make the engine run without fuel, ill be your business partner), so your agreeing (maybe not realizing your agreeing) that faith is not possible without righteous works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In an automobile, the engine running is conditional on fuel in the tank (if you figure out how to make the engine run without fuel, ill be your business partner), so your agreeing (maybe not realizing your agreeing) that faith is not possible without righteous works.

How did you twist what I said?

Faith (fuel) is not dependent on work (engine) . Work (engine) is dependent on faith (fuel).

if there is no fuel, there will be no work.

 

[Jabberjaw]

How did you twist what I said?

Faith (fuel) is not dependent on work (engine) . Work (engine) is dependent on faith (fuel).

if there is no fuel, there will be no work.

so if there is not work, then fuel is in vain, therefore one cannot have faith without works.