SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Jabberjaw]

Yes, and these verses should comfort you. Those verses are speaking of reward, not punishment.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Here a man is left with nothing, his work all burnt up, and yet what? He is still saved. If you have work still standing you will receive a reward. If not, you are still saved. These verses point out that our salvation isn't at risk, our rewards are.

Again, first someone else, now you have completely ripped 1 Cor. 3:14-15 completely out of context, this is about teaching, Paul is teaching others to teach, from another post I did :

1 Corinthians 3:5-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? [SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

A child can see up to here that Paul is speaking of himself and Apollos and them teaching (growing the church)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Verse 8 Again, planting and watering and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor (we are still speaking of teaching here and being rewarded for growing the church, Hope you are paying attention.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Verse 9 Paul is now Paul contrasts the teachers from those being taught to teach.[SUP]

10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 10-11, Paul here talks about the wisdom given to him by God to teach, the foundation of Christ he laid for them he taught to build on, cautioning them to be careful on how they build on that foundation laid by Christ.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

Verse 12-14 Paul tells them of the one they teach, if taught well on the same foundation he used (foundation of Christ) their work will become clear because one day each ones work will be tested and if the one they taught well endures, he (the teacher) will receive his reward

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Verse 15 If these converts were to be the ground of his reward, the loss of them would cause him to suffer a corresponding loss, yet he would be saved.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Why not just translate the word instead of being catholic or episcopal ...

John the DIPPER or John the IMMERSER.....BAPTIZER.......

I don't have a clue what your talking about in regard to "catholic or episcopal", but I have no problem if they had translated the word to 'immerser' or 'dipper' etc... it was what he did, not his name, at least people like you might read it rather than ignore it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You told the man that the Greek word under "hath" in the KJV (sarcastically referring to as "King Jimmy") Matt 5:23 was the aorist tense when he said it was present, he was correct, you were not and I corrected you, so you should not get into the Greek unless you know it, this way you will not look so foolish.

No.

I was speaking of Matt 6: 15.

Get of your high horse and stop trying to twist things.

 

[Hoffco]

dcontroversial. Please listen to Karraster, you are setting up a straw man, falsehood, and we both know it is wrong. You are wasting your time and ours. no one is basing their salvation on works. listen to Elin she is not basing her sal. on works. We base our works on our salvation by God's GRACE. God has transformed us into saints who love to trust and obey Jesus. You are not thinking straight, as you were before; who/and what has gotten into you? maybe you have been listening to Charles Stanley or Chuck Swindol too much. They are "faith only" heretics, but they are men of good works and I have doubt of their salvation. but their works, converts, many of them are lost, and will burn up. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you know what, I would rather meet Christ on judgement day knowing I at least tried to obey him by performing some good works than to have to face Him and say,, "What?, i thought you said faith only"

The sad part is those few works would be totally insufficiency to save you. And you would be lost forever.

I would rather stand in front of God with MANY works. then admit to my savior. even with these works I am insufficient to be in your presence. Thank you for saving me based on your grace. And not expect ANYTHING in return for my works.

And wake up. If you have TRUE faith, you would have much more than a few works. There is no such things as faith apart from works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

these scriptures should answer your question.

Rom 2:6    Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 14:12    So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Those verses are talking to Children of God who are saved by faith.

Not to non believers, who will receive no reward.

 

[damombomb]

Thank you Lord Jesus..............

 

[Cassian]

For sure...Why would I want to acknowledge heresy over the truth....Salvation is by grace through faith...not works, baptism, church membership, being slain in the spirit etc....THEY ARE ALL separate from SALVATION and do not supplement salvation....your vindictive attitude proves who your father really is.....KEEP on rejecting the truth of eternal salvation thru faith in Christ void of works and it will cost you for eternity!

What is so funny here, is that what you state is exactly what scripture teaches. We are saved through faith.
we are not saved by faith, we are not saved by one moment of faith, but we are being saved through faith.
Now, only if you could actually believe that, you would have a scriptural understanding.

 

[Cassian]

Originally Posted by psalm6819

can we be justified without being saved??? can we be saved without being justified????



BOTH ARE NO AS YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER!...such heresy will no go unpunished and your judgment lingereth not!

Many are justified by faith, but many, too many, fail to have an enduring faith. Since one cannot be saved without faith, it means one is no longer justified.
On the other hand if one is saved at the end and received the inheritance, they obviously were also justified since that is the ONLY way to enter into Christ where salvation takes place.

You claim that the opposition is heresy. Can you prove it is heresy? Who declared that being saved through faith is a heresy? When was that declared?

 

[Cassian]

That is the exact error of the people who said, "Lord, Lord..." Let me ask you a question Alligator? What Christian, in their right mind, standing before judgement would point to anything else besides the cross(and what Christ did) for salvation? Think about that. Why would a Christian stand before God and point to his works, such as healing, signs and miracles as the reason that he should be saved? Christians know that they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, they know that all men fall short of the glory of God and no man can earn salvation. It is by grace, not works. So, why then would a Christian defending himself as to the reason he should be saved, point to himself!? What type of Christian is that!? Seems self-righteous to me. Point to Christ and what He did on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins. Rest in Him. If God asks you why you should be saved, you point to Christ and no other. Why? He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is the sole reason as to your reconciliation to the Father. He is your Lord and Savior. He is your Redeemer.

First, and this has been pointed out several times already because it is irrelevant to the discussion, that Christ DID NOT SAVE YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL ON THE CROSS.

I would be interested in knowing what you believe Christ accomplished on the Cross specifically for believers?

 

[Cassian]

That is the testimony of Scripture.

The Holy Spirit not only uses a donkey, but he uses those with counterfeit faith,
even to work miracles (Mt 7:21-23--he never knew them as his own, even from the beginning,
even though they worked miracles).

This is one of the many Scriptures of which your understanding is surface-deep, and with which you do not reckon.

you just condemned yourself. You have actually condemned every single person that ever believed as having a fake or counterfeit faith. You have no knowledge if you or anyone will be saved. It will be a lottery pick at the end and a surprise to all, if they actually were saved or not.
You condemned all of your reasoning. It condemns the idea that one is saved upon a single moment of faith, because it could be counterfeit 50 years later. Your faith is counterfeit right now. You have no idea that you were actually saved as you think you are with this kind of definition for faith. It is so counter scriptural, a junior high reader could understand that much.

As I stated before, you have a very long way to go in understanding scriptural soteriology.

True faith is not you living in something, it is something (rebirth) living in you.

It think it would be quite difficult for a relationship to live in me. NO, true faith, if that is your comfort phrase is living IN Christ. Faith gets us in the door, the rebirth, but it is living through that faith, the works that you so much distain that actually makes your own salvation dead, meaningless. Faith only is a myth. It is why you cannot find any support for it in scirpture.

You can do all the good deeds you want, for as long as you want, as did the Christ-rejecting Pharisees,
but when the time of trial comes, as was Jesus for the Pharisees, you will not persevere in faith.

It is what faith produces, thus salvation. All the good works of the Pharisees was done outside of faith. We are being saved through our faith, not by it, nor in spite of it.

My final authority is Scripture, yours is not.

and your authority obviously is not working for you as it has not worked for thousands of others as well. Between the thousands with you, you could not determine what the Truth was if it took you 1000 years. Ah, you are already half way there, and instead of becoming unified, it is ever increasing in division with more ideas being born than amebas. Good luck with your authority.
It seems you have been misled. It seems man is the authority in your milieu, not scripture surely, but worse not Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Without a common final authority to resolve opposing differences,

The Church has always used scripture, but the scriptural meaning that was given in the beginning. Not individual man's ideas of what is should mean.
But even with the same authority as you claim to have, as does a thousand(s) others, you still cannot have a unified Gospel. I do not even know of any unity ever between opposing views in the last 500 years. The opposition just goes off and establishes his own gospel, his own church, his own way to salvation. It is obvious, no one can object or refute whatever it is you believe because it has no source that is common except your own opinion.
It obviously is not the Gospel of Christ that has existed unchanged for 2000 years. A Gospel I can explain today and every Christian prior going back to Pentecost would understand.

you are wasting your time and ours here.

so you say, but sola scripturists have been wasting time for 500 years already and you are among them wasting your time.

 

[Elin]

First, and this has been pointed out several times already because it is irrelevant to the discussion, that
Christ DID NOT SAVE YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL ON THE CROSS.

I would be interested in knowing what you believe Christ accomplished on the Cross specifically for believers?

Christ paid the penalty for their sin required by the justice of God (Ro 3:25-26) at the Final Judgment (Ro 5:9),
as the jail bird pays the penalty for his law-breaking required by our justice system at his verdict.

Their Savior's payment is applied to their debt owed to God's justice when they are
individually born again by the will of God, not by a human decision (Jn 1:13; 1Pe 1:3), and
individually and freely given

the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
the gift of justification/righteousness (Ro 3:24, 4:5, f25, 5:16, 17, 18, 19, 8:30),
the gift of salvation (Eph 2:9),
the gift of repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:21),
etc., etc., etc.

 

[Elin]

What is so funny here, is that what you state is exactly what scripture teaches. We are saved through faith.
we are not saved by faith, we are not saved by one moment of faith, but we are being saved through faith.
Now, only if you could actually believe that, you would have a scriptural understanding.

Your personal hard and fast rule between "through faith" and "by faith" is not a Biblical one.

"By faith" and "through faith" are often used to mean the same thing in the NT.

Righteousness is "by faith" as well as "through faith" in Php 3:9.

Righteousness is "by faith" in Ro 1:17, 4:13, 9:30, 10:16, Heb 11:7, and "through faith" in Ro 3:22.

Justification is "by faith" in Ro 3:28; Gal 2:16.

To be saved "through faith" and "by faith" is interchangeable.

 

[Elin]

you just condemned yourself.
You have actually condemned every single person that ever believed as having a fake or counterfeit faith.

My final authority is Scripture. . .yours is not.

Without a common final authority to resolve opposing differences,

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[And]

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

there is scripture

and that is final.
thread over.

 

[Elin]

What is so funny here, is that what you state is exactly what scripture teaches. We are saved through faith.
we are not saved by faith, we are not saved by one moment of faith, but we are being saved through faith.
Now, only if you could actually believe that, you would have a scriptural understanding. What is so funny here, is that what you state is exactly what scripture teaches. We are saved through faith.
we are not saved by faith, we are not saved by one moment of faith, but we are being saved through faith.
Now, only if you could actually believe that, you would have a scriptural understanding.

P.S.:

Your personal hard and fast rule between "through faith" and "by faith" is not a Biblical one.

"By faith" and "through faith" are often used to mean the same thing in the NT.

Righteousness is "by faith" as well as "through faith" in Php 3:9.

Righteousness is "by faith" in Ro 1:17, 4:13, 9:30, 10:16, Heb 11:7, and "through faith" in Ro 3:22.

Justification is "by faith" as well as "through faith" in Ro 3:30, 5:1.

Justification is "by faith" in Ro 3:28; Gal 2:16, 3:8, and "through faith" in Ro 5:1.

To be saved "through faith" and "by faith" is interchangeable.

One is also saved by "confessing" in Ro 10:10.

 

[dcontroversal]

No.

I was speaking of Matt 6: 15.

Get of your high horse and stop trying to twist things.

That's what they do best...twisty pretzels, twist ice cream, twist donuts, twist licorice, twist what we say and above all TWIST scriptures and what the bible teaches to promote heresy and works for salvation which is contrary to the truth. The twisty brothers for real.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Your personal hard and fast rule between "through faith" and "by faith" is not a Biblical one.

"By faith" and "through faith" are often used to mean the same thing in the NT.

Righteousness is "by faith" as well as "through faith" in Php 3:9.

Righteousness is "by faith" in Ro 1:17, 4:13, 9:30, 10:16, Heb 11:7, and "through faith" in Ro 3:22.

Justification is "by faith" in Ro 3:28; Gal 2:16.

To be saved "through faith" and "by faith" is interchangeable.

I agree with this and post 1234 which is also true.....they argue and reject that to be justified is to be saved and to be saved is to be justified...they believe you can have one with out the other and that MAN initiates faith and that MAN must save himself by his own works and merit....heresy to the core!

 

[dcontroversal]

What is so funny here, is that what you state is exactly what scripture teaches. We are saved through faith.
we are not saved by faith, we are not saved by one moment of faith, but we are being saved through faith.
Now, only if you could actually believe that, you would have a scriptural understanding.

Cassius you still fail to see the simple truth that by faith, through faith, according to faith are all the same thing and not only that, but justification is integral to salvation as YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER and they are a once for all ACT based upon the faith OF JESUS....

 

[dcontroversal]

dcontroversial. Please listen to Karraster, you are setting up a straw man, falsehood, and we both know it is wrong. You are wasting your time and ours. no one is basing their salvation on works. listen to Elin she is not basing her sal. on works. We base our works on our salvation by God's GRACE. God has transformed us into saints who love to trust and obey Jesus. You are not thinking straight, as you were before; who/and what has gotten into you? maybe you have been listening to Charles Stanley or Chuck Swindol too much. They are "faith only" heretics, but they are men of good works and I have doubt of their salvation. but their works, converts, many of them are lost, and will burn up. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco you have no idea what you are talking about and I do not listen to the two idiots you named...WORKS do not save us, WORKS do not keep us saved, salvation is based upon the COMPLETED WORK OF CHRIST AND HIS FAITH...it is a gift and is eternal, the SPIRIT that is born of GOD does not sin, cannot sin and is eternally sealed and secure in Christ..

When I have people telling me that...

1. MAN INITIATES FAITH
2. MAN MUST SAVE HIMSELF
3. MAN IS SAVED or KEPT SAVED by OUR WORKS

I do not need to listen to any heretics and or lies and I will defend the truth...

I have not said or implied...

1. That we can live anyway we want
2. That we do not have to live for God and keep his word
3. That true believers will not serve God

So, maybe you should study more before you embrace heretical teachers and their works for salvation!