SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Cassian]

Elin,

Christ paid the penalty for their sin required by the justice of God (Ro 3:25-26) at the Final Judgment (Ro 5:9),

I don't see the word ONLY believers in either of these texts. How does anything in these texts make a believer?
What I see is all are sinners, every human being, who is freely justied, all sinners, all men as does Rom 5:9, in fact the whole context from vs 6-10 is all about reconciling all men, for the purpose that individual men might be justified by faith.

as the jail bird pays the penalty for his law-breaking required by our justice system at his verdict

which sentence is not confirmed until one dies. Both heaven or hell is meted out at the end, not the beginning.

Their Savior's payment is applied to their debt owed to God's justice when they are
individually born again by the will of God, not by a human decision (Jn 1:13; 1Pe 1:3), and
individually and freely given

but this digresses from the question. YOu are here admitting that Christ did not save individuals on the Cross.

the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
the gift of justification/righteousness (Ro 3:24, 4:5, f25, 5:16, 17, 18, 19, 8:30),
the gift of salvation (Eph 2:9),
the gift of repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:21),
etc., etc., etc.

a whole lot more gifts can be added, but none of them are awarded to individuals from the Cross.
The question is how are individual saved from or on the Cross?
None of these above answer it, What Christ accomplished for man was a sacrifice and life. These make it possible for man to have a relationship with God. Every human being has this opportunity. Christ died for all men, saved all men from death and sin. The sacrifice was to enable Christ to forgive sin when a person requests forgiveness of their sin. Christ is both the sacrifice and the High Priest over that sacrifice.
Care to try again?

 

[dcontroversal]

A debate can only go this many pages when people are not listening to each other.

Or when some continue to reject truth and argue their works for salvation heresy......

 

[dcontroversal]

AGAIN I ASK for those who believe the following...

1. Works for salvation
2. Works to keep salvation
3. You can loose your salvation

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU LOST YOUR SALVATION AND HOW DID YOU REGAIN IT?

 

[Cee]

The problem I see here is the perception that the cross is the finishing line for the believer, but the cross is the finishing line for the old man. If we see Christ as dying for our sins, we are forgiven. If we see ourselves as dying with Christ as He died as us, we are free.

Just as the cross is the finish line for the old man. It is the starting line for the new man. If you think you are not yet saved, then I would venture to say you don't believe you are a new man, a new creation, and a good tree as a result of being in the Vine. And unfortunately, it is this renewed reality that proves the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God.

If we think we can do "works" to earn salvation it is pride. Pure and simple. The Pharisees did far better works than anyone we've ever met, they devoted their life to the law, however they were white washed tombs on the outside and dead on the inside. It is only by Christ's transforming power, that breathes life, love, and freedom on the inside of us, because we DIE to the old man. That we are truly able to walk as He did. The Christian life isn't hard, it's impossible.

And for anyone who says you need works to be saved, I ask you, how do you know you are saved? What is the line you have drawn in your mind that is enough works? Is it posting Scripture every day? Is it reading the Bible daily? Is it going to church daily? Is it arguing with people on CC about OSAS and saying how evil people are who believe it? Maybe it's the fact you tithe? Or maybe the fact you don't? What is that allows you to know YOU are saved, you who wish to accuse others? Doesn't the Bible say with the same judgment we mete we will be meted? How then do you know you are saved?

I ask this question because the Pharisees looked at their works, looked at their traditions that did everything HUMANELY possible to not transgress the law, but unfortunately they did. And they missed the Savior. Thinking they had to do something for eternal life, they kept their eyes on themselves for so long that pride built up until they needed control. Many people are missing what God is doing in the Earth because they are focusing on themselves and not Him. But, behold He is doing a new thing, old wine-skins have become new and can now hold the new wine. Don't think that you can do anything without knowing first that He has done everything. Now, we simply walk in the good works prepared for us. Not because we have to, but because we want to. And if you don't want to do the good will of the Father, than I would also venture to say that yourself need to be renewed in your mind to the goodness and kindness of God.

That belief alone will allow you to stop focusing on you and your walk and love other people from a place of faith and not fear.

C.

 

[Cassian]

Your personal hard and fast rule between "through faith" and "by faith" is not a Biblical one.

"By faith" and "through faith" are often used to mean the same thing in the NT.

Righteousness is "by faith" as well as "through faith" in Php 3:9.

Righteousness is "by faith" in Ro 1:17, 4:13, 9:30, 10:16, Heb 11:7, and "through faith" in Ro 3:22.

Justification is "by faith" in Ro 3:28; Gal 2:16.

To be saved "through faith" and "by faith" is interchangeable.

You are correct, they are used interchangeably, but neither one in and of itself saves alone. They are only used interchangeably when it is referring to being justified.
The Eph 2:9 being saved through faith, is what our walk is all about. This is where faith/works cannot be separated. The words believe, or believes is always in the present tense, active and cntinuing. So one cannot be saved if believing stops.
so the particular uses of by or through does not help your cause in any case. Primarily because it is always the same faith, our faith, and that is always conditional. It is NEVER being saved by faith alone.

 

[Cassian]

Cassius you still fail to see the simple truth that by faith, through faith, according to faith are all the same thing and not only that, but justification is integral to salvation as YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER and they are a once for all ACT based upon the faith OF JESUS....

Never stated that justification is NOT essential to salvation. It is the entrance into Christ. One cannot be saved unless one actually enters into Chirst. But being justifed does not constitute salvation. It is entrance which is the beginning of salvation through/by faith.
Neither is a one act event. One must keep himself justified by living out the faith that is justifying a person. If we lose faith, how can one be justified. It never says one is justified also without faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Never stated that justification is NOT essential to salvation. It is the entrance into Christ. One cannot be saved unless one actually enters into Chirst. But being justifed does not constitute salvation. It is entrance which is the beginning of salvation through/by faith.
Neither is a one act event. One must keep himself justified by living out the faith that is justifying a person. If we lose faith, how can one be justified. It never says one is justified also without faith.

How is it you don't understand that it is our SPIRIT that is BORN of GOD and eternally JUSTIFIED in the FAITH OF CHRIST...it cannot become Unjustified as it is SECURE in JESUS and ETERNALLY PRESERVED in the FAITH OF CHRIST..

That which is born of God does not sin<----OUR SPIRIT

 

[Cee]

Actually Scripture is clear that it is He who Justifies. Not us who justify ourselves.

James was simply saying, you say you have faith and that is good, but how do you know your faith is real without works? And to really get into the context, what good does your faith do (for those around you) without works?

The point is though, that we can not work ourselves to salvation. We can only work FROM salvation. Faith produces works. Or which I think is better visual, fruit. Because Jesus said bad trees can not bear good fruit. So He changed our tree, hence, we are new creations, with a new heart, a new spirit, old man is dead, and we even have the mind of Christ. Now from THIS place we can begin to do live a supernatural life that preaches the Kingdom of God through love namely, hence Jesus said we shall know who belongs to Him by the love they show one another. Not by their theology.

Further - we love God because He loved us first. We love each other because of His love. We can only give what we have received. This is the essence of grace, it empowers, this is critical to walk in true holiness, which isn't what we DO, but who we now are.

C.

Never stated that justification is NOT essential to salvation. It is the entrance into Christ. One cannot be saved unless one actually enters into Chirst. But being justifed does not constitute salvation. It is entrance which is the beginning of salvation through/by faith.
Neither is a one act event. One must keep himself justified by living out the faith that is justifying a person. If we lose faith, how can one be justified. It never says one is justified also without faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually Scripture is clear that it is He who Justifies. Not us who justify ourselves.

James was simply saying, you say you have faith and that is good, but how do you know your faith is real without works? And to really get into the context, what good does your faith do (for those around you) without works?

The point is though, that we can not work ourselves to salvation. We can only work FROM salvation. Faith produces works. Or which I think is better visual, fruit. Because Jesus said bad trees can not bear good fruit. So He changed our tree, hence, we are new creations, with a new heart, a new spirit, old man is dead, and we even have the mind of Christ. Now from THIS place we can begin to do live a supernatural life that preaches the Kingdom of God through love namely, hence Jesus said we shall know who belongs to Him by the love they show one another. Not by their theology.

Further - we love God because He loved us first. We love each other because of His love. We can only give what we have received. This is the essence of grace, it empowers, this is critical to walk in true holiness, which isn't what we DO, but who we now are.

C.

Amen and what a breath of fresh air...I agree with this and your first post above brother...it is by faith through grace and I have always taught that true faith will produce works as works cannot produce faith....we cannot save ourselves and or justify ourselves and it is all according to the faith OF JESUS.

 

[Cee]

Amen.

One issue is the definition of holiness in many peoples' minds. They see it as a doing. Not a being. But Jesus said BE HOLY, as I am Holy. This is a declaration that we are to BE Holy. Scripture also says we are a holy nation and a royal priesthood. Holiness means unique, set apart, different... we are a peculiar people indeed.

Not because of our works, but because of His Work.

C.

Amen and what a breath of fresh air...I agree with this and your first post above brother...it is by faith through grace and I have always taught that true faith will produce works as works cannot produce faith....we cannot save ourselves and or justify ourselves and it is all according to the faith OF JESUS.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen.

One issue is the definition of holiness in many peoples' minds. They see it as a doing. Not a being. But Jesus said BE HOLY, as I am Holy. This is a declaration that we are to BE Holy. Scripture also says we are a holy nation and a royal priesthood. Holiness means unique, set apart, different... we are a peculiar people indeed.

Not because of our works, but because of His Work.

C.

It is funny that you should quote this as I taught some of those same scriptures today and I agree...we are called to transcend above humanity and be godly in our actions and ways of life...Jesus through us and in us is the one who does the works for sure.....

 

[Cassian]

AGAIN I ASK for those who believe the following...

1. Works for salvation
2. Works to keep salvation
3. You can loose your salvation

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU LOST YOUR SALVATION AND HOW DID YOU REGAIN IT?

I don't think there are any that believe any of these, at least not in this thread.
These are your terms listed based on your misunderstanding, of both scripture and what any opponent has stated in these threads.

Lets take one at a time... "Works for salvation". In neither case, replacing the Work Christ did for us, and the offer He gives to join with Him in a personal relationship does man work for his salvation. No one has yet stated this.

"Works to keep salvation".. first, we don't possess salvation finitely. It is a promise to be awarded at the end if conditions are met. So obviously nothing anyone does is to keep salvation since we don't have it finitely in this life.


"You cannot lose salvation"...
if we don't have it, we cannot lose it. However, faith has conditions and since faith/belief is the requirement for inheriting salvation, a believer does need to fulful the requirements of that faith. Faith must be actice, it must have content, works. If no works no salvation will be inherited.

I think the debate over the last 500 years within the Protestant milieu has been over misuse of words, definitions, where some redefine words to fit their own theories or more likely understand it within their own paradigm which makes them strawmen every time.
In this particular discussion in both threads it is incorrect understanding of salvation to begin with. Then the misunderstanding of terms regarding soteriology.
The theories were introduced by Luther at the beginning of the Reformation. As such they cannot be the teaching of scripture from the beginning.

 

[Cassian]

How is it you don't understand that it is our SPIRIT that is BORN of GOD and eternally JUSTIFIED in the FAITH OF CHRIST...it cannot become Unjustified as it is SECURE in JESUS and ETERNALLY PRESERVED in the FAITH OF CHRIST..

That which is born of God does not sin<----OUR SPIRIT

You have clearly a wholly new kind of salvation that has never been heard of before. This thread has gone down a lot of rabbit holes, with the hope of deflecting from the Truth of scripture. You have already made these pronouncements and they were refuted with scripture.
Regurgitating them does not add to the discussion, just adds meaningless rhetoric.

 

[posthuman]

by faith, in His grace i am saved, amen!
how can i ever say thanks?
makes me want to do works!

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't think there are any that believe any of these, at least not in this thread.
These are your terms listed based on your misunderstanding, of both scripture and what any opponent has stated in these threads.

Lets take one at a time... "Works for salvation". In neither case, replacing the Work Christ did for us, and the offer He gives to join with Him in a personal relationship does man work for his salvation. No one has yet stated this.

"Works to keep salvation".. first, we don't possess salvation finitely. It is a promise to be awarded at the end if conditions are met. So obviously nothing anyone does is to keep salvation since we don't have it finitely in this life.


"You cannot lose salvation"...
if we don't have it, we cannot lose it. However, faith has conditions and since faith/belief is the requirement for inheriting salvation, a believer does need to fulful the requirements of that faith. Faith must be actice, it must have content, works. If no works no salvation will be inherited.

I think the debate over the last 500 years within the Protestant milieu has been over misuse of words, definitions, where some redefine words to fit their own theories or more likely understand it within their own paradigm which makes them strawmen every time.
In this particular discussion in both threads it is incorrect understanding of salvation to begin with. Then the misunderstanding of terms regarding soteriology.
The theories were introduced by Luther at the beginning of the Reformation. As such they cannot be the teaching of scripture from the beginning.

You have stated clearly that if you fail to do the works and or quit working that you will lose your salvation have you not??????

You have tied works to salvation and works are not part of salvation...it is the spirit that is saved and it cannot LOOSE it's salvation period and there is nothing that can be done (works) so as to supplement and or add to the salvation that we already HAVE in JESUS.....

 

[Cassian]

The problem I see here is the perception that the cross is the finishing line for the believer, but the cross is the finishing line for the old man. If we see Christ as dying for our sins, we are forgiven. If we see ourselves as dying with Christ as He died as us, we are free.

Just as the cross is the finish line for the old man. It is the starting line for the new man. If you think you are not yet saved, then I would venture to say you don't believe you are a new man, a new creation, and a good tree as a result of being in the Vine. And unfortunately, it is this renewed reality that proves the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God.

If we think we can do "works" to earn salvation it is pride. Pure and simple. The Pharisees did far better works than anyone we've ever met, they devoted their life to the law, however they were white washed tombs on the outside and dead on the inside. It is only by Christ's transforming power, that breathes life, love, and freedom on the inside of us, because we DIE to the old man. That we are truly able to walk as He did. The Christian life isn't hard, it's impossible.

And for anyone who says you need works to be saved, I ask you, how do you know you are saved? What is the line you have drawn in your mind that is enough works? Is it posting Scripture every day? Is it reading the Bible daily? Is it going to church daily? Is it arguing with people on CC about OSAS and saying how evil people are who believe it? Maybe it's the fact you tithe? Or maybe the fact you don't? What is that allows you to know YOU are saved, you who wish to accuse others? Doesn't the Bible say with the same judgment we mete we will be meted? How then do you know you are saved?

I ask this question because the Pharisees looked at their works, looked at their traditions that did everything HUMANELY possible to not transgress the law, but unfortunately they did. And they missed the Savior. Thinking they had to do something for eternal life, they kept their eyes on themselves for so long that pride built up until they needed control. Many people are missing what God is doing in the Earth because they are focusing on themselves and not Him. But, behold He is doing a new thing, old wine-skins have become new and can now hold the new wine. Don't think that you can do anything without knowing first that He has done everything. Now, we simply walk in the good works prepared for us. Not because we have to, but because we want to. And if you don't want to do the good will of the Father, than I would also venture to say that yourself need to be renewed in your mind to the goodness and kindness of God.

That belief alone will allow you to stop focusing on you and your walk and love other people from a place of faith and not fear.

C.

Obviously you have not read either of the two threads on the subject. Your whole response was irrelevant to any of the discussions. I assume it was directed at the opposition of the premise, "one is saved by faith only". If so, there is no one that opposes the OP believes anything regarding what you stated. I can definitely speak for myself, but having read all ther posts, none of the other opponents have stated anything that would give any credence to your post.

 

[Cassian]

You have stated clearly that if you fail to do the works and or quit working that you will lose your salvation have you not??????

Lets keep the terminology scriptural. One cannot lose salvation since we don't finitely possess it in this life relative to our relationship with Christ. What we are stating is that one is saved through faith. Faith must be active, living, producing fruit. If not faith is dead. One cannot inherit salvation if one has no faith. Does scripture ever state that one is saved by not having faith? If not, then the scriptural teaching is that you cannot be saved by losing faith.

You have tied works to salvation and works are not part of salvation...it is the spirit that is saved and it cannot LOOSE it's salvation period and there is nothing that can be done (works) so as to supplement and or add to the salvation that we already HAVE in JESUS.....

Now you have entered another hersy, Gnosticism again. You have so many false teachings that it is no wonder you are so confused.
Secondly, we are not even speaking of the salvation one has in Jesus. Christ through His Incarnation and resurrection saved all men from death and sin. That is not even in the discussion, except that is what makes the relationship possible in the first place.
We cannot add or subtract anything from what Christ did for all men. Part of your confusion, conflating Christ's work from man's response and purpose of our very existence, being in union with God.

 

[Cee]

Okay let's keep it Scriptural...

Salvation is a final act.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
- Crossed OVER.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
- Is NOT condemned.

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
- HAS

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Eat the bread = live forever.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
- Showing we are saved and from saving, we see fruit.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
- KNOW you have it.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Corinthians.
- New creation, old has passed. NEW.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians: new creation.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

- God's handiwork, created to do good works. New creation in Christ = do good works.

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

- New self.

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
- Guarantee. It's done.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
- You're Gods child, can't be unborn.

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
- Ephesians / another guarantee, we are God's possession.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Believe = eternal life, notice it says have, not will have.

And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
- Never perish when Jesus gives life.


Let me know if you want more Scripture before you say something is unScriptural. I can show many more Scriptures that are very clear to what I said, but if you need more no problem.

Simply telling someone they have false teachings without showing them where is causing division. The bulk of Scripture clearly shows that what Christ does is permanent and that it has the deposit of guarantee in the Holy Spirit.

I found your response to what I wrote incredibly rude, so I wonder what you consider a good work is? Because Paul says if we do not have love, but have all knowledge it means nada. So if you are confident you are saved, please tell me why? Which of your good works do you point to that is keeping you saved? Jesus says it is by our love that we know who belongs to Him. How's your love level?

C.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what they do best...twisty pretzels, twist ice cream, twist donuts, twist licorice, twist what we say and above all TWIST scriptures and what the bible teaches to promote heresy and works for salvation which is contrary to the truth. The twisty brothers for real.......

I do not get it. It is like everyone who looks see what they does. They can;t get away with it, But they are so blinded by their belief system, it is like they either do not care. or blinded to what they are doing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay let's keep it Scriptural...

Salvation is a final act.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
- Crossed OVER.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
- Is NOT condemned.

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
- HAS

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Eat the bread = live forever.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
- Showing we are saved and from saving, we see fruit.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
- KNOW you have it.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Corinthians.
- New creation, old has passed. NEW.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians: new creation.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

- God's handiwork, created to do good works. New creation in Christ = do good works.

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

- New self.

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
- Guarantee. It's done.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
- You're Gods child, can't be unborn.

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
- Ephesians / another guarantee, we are God's possession.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Believe = eternal life, notice it says have, not will have.

And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
- Never perish when Jesus gives life.


Let me know if you want more Scripture before you say something is unScriptural. I can show many more Scriptures that are very clear to what I said, but if you need more no problem.

Simply telling someone they have false teachings without showing them where is causing division. The bulk of Scripture clearly shows that what Christ does is permanent and that it has the deposit of guarantee in the Holy Spirit.

I found your response to what I wrote incredibly rude, so I wonder what you consider a good work is? Because Paul says if we do not have love, but have all knowledge it means nada. So if you are confident you are saved, please tell me why? Which of your good works do you point to that is keeping you saved? Jesus says it is by our love that we know who belongs to Him. How's your love level?

C.

excellent, it gets no more clearer than this!