SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Cassian]

Nice try at a dodge. . .

The Greek is the Greek is the Greek, and does not require consultation of the Hebrew for its definition.

You are wasting your time and ours here.

Of course not, it would deny your interpretation. Cannot do that.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian denies what he has formerly affirmed many times, post #1273 above being the latest.

He likewise denies what his posts imply in his wording,

but which is short of an absolute statement of fact.

Gamey. . .

Your getting silly now, does two strawmen stand up better, maybe you should try three, then you have a three legged stool.

 

[newbirth]

To teach salvation based upon your own works is heretical!....

1. NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US
2. IN THE GRACE YOU ARE, HAVING BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST
3. IF YOU BELIEVE WITH YOUR MIND AND CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH....THOU SHALT BE SAVED!
4. Galatians chapters 1, 3--->Faith plus works =false heretical doctrine with no ability to save!
5. Romans 8:1 NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST---LAST PART OF VERSE ADDED AND NOT IN ORIGINAL TEXT
6. DAVID AND ABRAHAM--->DESCRIBE ACURATELY THAT GRACE AND SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED UNTO MAN WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW<----WORKS
7. NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES THAT POINT ONLY TO FAITH (BELIEF) FOR TOTAL SALVATION

I hope you unbelievers have enough works and that your works exceed the PHARISEES in righteousness and that you are not 1 work short.....NO HOPE OR ASSURANCE IN WORKS!

I don't know how you think salvation works but that does not change how it actually works most times I cannot explain it how I want to, but the spirit of God gives understanding.Grace, we did not deserve it, faith, we trust in him that he has performed it. Now if he has performed it, you will be transformed by the renewing of your mind. When you are transformed your direction changes, which produces a different set of actions.(this is referred to as works of the spirit). These works actually identify you as the body of Christ.

Rom 2
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath[SUP](H)[/SUP], when his righteous judgment[SUP](I)[/SUP] will be revealed. [SUP]6 [/SUP]God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP](J)[/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor[SUP](K)[/SUP] and immortality,[SUP](L)[/SUP] he will give eternal life.[SUP](M)[/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil,[SUP](N)[/SUP] there will be wrath and anger.[SUP](O)[/SUP] [SUP]9 [/SUP]There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:[SUP](P)[/SUP] first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;[SUP](Q)[/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.[SUP](R)[/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]For God does not show favoritism.[SUP](S)[/SUP]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law[SUP](T)[/SUP] will be judged by the law. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey[SUP](U)[/SUP] the law who will be declared righteous. [SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,[SUP](V)[/SUP] they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [SUP]16 [/SUP]This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets[SUP](W)[/SUP] through Jesus Christ,[SUP](X)[/SUP] as my gospel[SUP](Y)[/SUP] declares.

 

[newbirth]

They do not understand that justification in the Greek is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,
right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,
because of his gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)
by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.

They prefer their own man-made definition over the language of the Scriptures.
Man-made defines their belief system.

And man-made is inescapable when Scripture is not the final authority.

And without a common final authority, there are no bases for examination of the Scriptures with them,

and they are wasting their time and hours here.

This example shows how forgiveness of sins work... if it were a permanent fixture he would not say go and sin no more.

John5
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning[SUP](G)[/SUP] or something worse may happen to you.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]The man went away and told the Jewish leaders[SUP](H)[/SUP] that it was Jesus who had made him well.

1 John 2:1
King James Version
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Now I understand why Jonas did not want to go to Nineveh

 

[newbirth]

God's single act of salvation completed in eternity is in time

past - when we came to saving faith,

present - in sanctification, and

future - at the resurrection when our bodies are redeemed.

It's all one completed act by God before the foundation of the world,
as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. But the word still became flesh suffered death and was raised from the dead here on earth. So you believe when you hear the word. Past sins wiped away. Present, You are set apart (sanctified) and sealed by the spirit, the proof being your good works which is obedience to the spirit.It is not you that work but the spirit works in you(if we disobey that spirit we are not of God). Future If Christ does not come in our lifetime he will raise us up in the last day.You are required to walk righteous even as he did.

 

[Elin]

I. Herein lies the fundamental and all-encompassing problem of your whole erroneous system.

You reject the Biblical meaning of justification in the Biblical language Greek,

where it is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,

a right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,

because of God's gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)

by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)
at the Final Judgment.

You prefer your own definition of "justification" over its meaning in the NT Greek.

II. And your fundamental problem lies in your

fundamental and all-encompassing error of giving men authority over the NT language

to declare what it must mean and must not mean,

regardless of what the NT Greek means according to its own definitions.

These men sit over the Greek language of the NT, rather than under it.

III. Nor is any Greek based on the Hebrew.
There are no Hebrew roots in any Greek words.
The two languages are in no way related.

The NT language has only one meaning--the definition of its words in its own language, Greek.

My final authority is the original language of the NT. . .yours is not. I sit under the NT Greek. . .you do not;

therefore, there is no common final authority by which to resolve

this fundamental and all-encompassing difference regarding the NT meaning of justification.

So you are wasting your time and ours here.

More pronouncements that simply state your position against that of scripture.

There is no common final authority by which to resolve our opposing differences, so

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

The Greek is the Greek is the Greek, and
does not require consultation of the Hebrew for its definition.

Of course not, it would deny your interpretation.

Your ignorance of linquistics is showing.

To be more precise:

My final authority is the Greek language of the NT. . .yours is not.

With no common final authority by which to resolve our opposing differences

on the meaning of the NT, you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

Cassian denies what he has formerly affirmed many times,
post #1273 above being the latest.

He likewise denies what his posts imply in his wording,

but which wording is short of an absolute statement of fact.

Gamey. . .

Your getting silly now

The voluminous record speaks for itself. . .

 

[Jabberjaw]

Your ignorance of linquistics is showing.

To be more precise:

My final authority is the Greek language of the NT. . .yours is not.

With no common final authority by which to resolve our opposing differences

on the meaning of the NT, you are wasting your time and ours here.

If you don't understand the English, how could you possibly understand the Greek.

 

[Elin]

Your ignorance of linquistics is showing.

To be more precise:

My final authority is the Greek language of the NT. . .yours is not.

With no common final authority by which to resolve our opposing differences

on the meaning of the NT, you are wasting your time and ours here.

If you don't understand the English, how could you possibly understand the Greek.

???????

And if you don't understand Chinese, how can you possibly understand Swahili?

Your ignorance of linguistics is showing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you don't understand the English, how could you possibly understand the Greek.

You have it backwards. We do not learn the english to understand the greek.

1. The NT was not written in english, it was translated to english
2. We use the greek to understand the english and test of the translation is ok. Or to further understand when the engish is lacking in properly interpreting the greek.

The english is a flawed, imperfect language,

The greek is a strong much more clear and precise language, minus the flaws in the english.

There is a reason God chose to use the greek, and not english to write the NT.

 

[newbirth]

Not all who came out of Egypt entered into the promise land.Picture Moses as a type of Christ, but because of unbelief many perished in the wilderness. You have faith, show me your faith without works, my faith however produces works, faith is one of the foundation of our salvation if your faith produces nothing then you have nothing. Because the just shall live by faith. Not all who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom because they did not feed him, nor give him drink nor clothe him.

Phil 2
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Heb 5
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[newbirth]

Or when some continue to reject truth and argue their works for salvation heresy......

[h=3]Hebrews 6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[dcontroversal]

You should recheck your lexicon, which is usually incorrect anyway when it comes to some words and one is Jusfitication. The Greek was based on the Hebrew and it does not use the legal connotation is scripture. It uses the personal relationship. In is ONLY because Jerome did not have a Latin word when he translated the Greek into Latin, was the Roman Civil law word of justification even used. When Anselm developed his theory on the Satisfaction of Atonement he used this erroneous concept of "not guility" or guiltlessness. The Greek word in those instances is righteousness, or righteous the same as was in the Hebrew.

I suspected that you were under the influence of the erroneous idea of the Satisfaction theory, this confirms it.

The original language assists in defining what the theology might mean. It would be quite absurd to think that millions of Greeks including the Apostles themselves would have misunderstood their own language. Greek was the exclusive languare of the Church for 900 years.

At that it would not be correct either. If you want to say that Christ declares one "not guilty" upon confession, would be true, but then man sins again, and is out of guiltlessness. Every sin one commits is making man unrighteous, and confession is a daily event in the life of a believer. Confession puts man back into a correct relationship.
It also denies the very relationship we have with Christ. Your "not guilty" is an external act of imputing something but changes nothing in the person. We are in a personal relationship with Christ, He imparts righteousness when we do righteousness, especially when we confess our sins.
Being IN Christ is all about changing man, healing man, not legal meaningless pronouncements. Especially when it means finite salvation in your view.

That like the opponents to Luther's idea of Faith ONLY and his adoption of the Forensic Theory of Atonement, is that God might declare one not guilty, but that does not change the fact that man is still the same underneath. It did nothing to change man. The paraphrase is that man is still like dung, but has a covering of snow over it. Which is precisely why it is unscriptural.

Wrong again.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8[/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Excellent scriptures on biblical Christian MATURITY which have nothing at all to do with salvation.....

 

[dcontroversal]

You have it backwards. We do not learn the english to understand the greek.

1. The NT was not written in english, it was translated to english
2. We use the greek to understand the english and test of the translation is ok. Or to further understand when the engish is lacking in properly interpreting the greek.

The english is a flawed, imperfect language,

The greek is a strong much more clear and precise language, minus the flaws in the english.

There is a reason God chose to use the greek, and not english to write the NT.

You cannot reason with Flipper as he and his cronies will continue to believe in their works even after the body presence of Jesus and us being gathered together unto him.....

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't know how you think salvation works but that does not change how it actually works most times I cannot explain it how I want to, but the spirit of God gives understanding.Grace, we did not deserve it, faith, we trust in him that he has performed it. Now if he has performed it, you will be transformed by the renewing of your mind. When you are transformed your direction changes, which produces a different set of actions.(this is referred to as works of the spirit). These works actually identify you as the body of Christ.

Rom 2
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath[SUP](H)[/SUP], when his righteous judgment[SUP](I)[/SUP] will be revealed. [SUP]6 [/SUP]God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP](J)[/SUP][SUP]7 [/SUP]To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor[SUP](K)[/SUP] and immortality,[SUP](L)[/SUP] he will give eternal life.[SUP](M)[/SUP][SUP]8 [/SUP]But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil,[SUP](N)[/SUP] there will be wrath and anger.[SUP](O)[/SUP][SUP]9 [/SUP]There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:[SUP](P)[/SUP] first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;[SUP](Q)[/SUP][SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.[SUP](R)[/SUP][SUP]11 [/SUP]For God does not show favoritism.[SUP](S)[/SUP]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law[SUP](T)[/SUP] will be judged by the law. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey[SUP](U)[/SUP] the law who will be declared righteous. [SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,[SUP](V)[/SUP] they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [SUP]16 [/SUP]This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets[SUP](W)[/SUP] through Jesus Christ,[SUP](X)[/SUP] as my gospel[SUP](Y)[/SUP] declares.

Maybe you should study more as it is evident that salvation is based upon unmerited favor (grace)...God's mercy (we don't deserve it) and through the act of faith (to believe) from faith to faith it is written....We trust into the perfect FAITH of JESUS which is what saves us, justifies us and then we are sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE...OUR SPIRIT HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD, DOES not sin, cannot loose it's salvation, is eternally sealed and secure in Christ and IS NOT BASED upon works and works do not and cannot supplement salvation as it is complete IN CHRIST.

Was saved, am saved and continuing to be saved into the future.....Aorist TENSE VERB as found in John 3:16..a presenting continuing result from a past completed action....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Your getting silly now, does two strawmen stand up better, maybe you should try three, then you have a three legged stool.

Would a three legged stool be compared to three fools who teach a watered down, owed salvation that man initiates and works to gain and or keep for oneself while denying the perfect faith OF JESUS and slapping him in the face while saying his completed work was not sufficient and needs your additional help to save you?

 

[dcontroversal]

Herein lies the fundamental and all-encompassing problem of your whole erroneous system.

You reject the Biblical meaning of justification in the Biblical language Greek,

where it is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,

a right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,

because of God's gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)

by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)
at the Final Judgment.

You prefer your own man-made definition of justification over the language of the Scriptures.

And your fundamental problem lies in your

fundamental and all-encompassing error of giving men authority over the Scriptures,

where men sit over the Scriptures, rather than sitting under them.

My final authority is Scripture. . .yours is not. I sit under them. . .you do not;

therefore, there is no common final authority by which to resolve

this fundamental and all-encompassing difference regarding justification.

So you are wasting your time and ours here.

I agree and no doubt...can you imagine the absurdity of saying you can be saved without being justified and that you can loose your salvation if you don't do works to keep it current....

No matter how you slice it and dice it they teach works for salvation and the completed work of Christ is not sufficient to save anyone......

 

[Kerry]

Okay people, get it through those thick skulls. Works are a result of salvation and sanctification by the means of the cross. We are not saved by our works. Works are the result of our faith in the work of the cross and done by the Holy Spirit. By my Spirit saith the Lord. If it's not done by the Spirit then it ain't done.