Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[JGIG]

That made no sense at all.

You might try using Scripture in your posts.

As for us being dead to the world - yes! In Christ, we are!

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)​

If that's not clear enough, try this:

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)​

-JGIG

Dear JGIG, shalom. What Red Tent has shared is in perfect accord with what I have learned from the Word, or the Torah of Jesus Christ, Yeshua.



Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If anyone truly desires to know his Salvation, he would begin with hearing what Jesus, Yeshua, teaches. Also he must recognize that Jesus was a Jew because He was of the tribe of Judah as prophesied. Then he must recognize that his faith that comes with divine salvation by the Blood of Yahweh's Lamb is the faith of Abraham as mentioned in the New Testament, and that all who believe become children of Abraham.

No one need change their own religion, or their own vocabulary, but they must give honor where honor is due. You may find out where by learning from Yeshua, Jesus, amen.

Again with the condescension. Sheesh. "If anyone TRULY desires to know his Salvation . . . ", as if those who are not following the Hebrew Roots path are not 'true' seekers.

Here's a Truth about Christ Jesus you may not have fully considered: As One born of the Tribe of Judah, Christ cannot be High Priest over the Laws given at Sinai. New Priesthood; New Law. Again, might I introduce you to God's Torah after the Cross, 1 Jn. 3:23-24.

Oh, and you left out the part in Romans 7 where it clearly says that those in Christ are dead to, severed from, released from, delivered from, the Law.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Going to the Greek settles the matter:

Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been >>> delivered G2673 – katargeō <<< from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
​

G2673 – katargeō is translated as both ‘abolished’ in Eph. 2:15 and as ‘delivered’ in Rom. 7:6.
Here’s the definition:

G2673 – katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative ​

a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
​

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish​

a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one
​

That’s talkin’ about the Law for those in Christ, folks!


The Law, for those in Christ, is these things:

➞ idle

➞ unemployed

➞ inactive (!!!)

➞ inoperative (!!!)

➞ to cause a person to have no further efficiency

➞ to deprive of force, influence, power (!!!)

➞ to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish (!!!)

➞ to cease, to pass away, be done away (!!!)

➞ to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one (!!!)

➞ to terminate all intercourse with one (!!!)
​

From Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2

-JGIG

Why would one need go to the Greek when any translation into one's own tongue is sufficient for learning all necessary as long as he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

It's always wise to go back to the original language in which a passage was penned for clarification when needed, such as when someone is saying that a passage does not say that which it clearly says.

Another interesting irony here is, why would one feel a need to go to Greek when Hebrew/Aramaic was the lingua franca in trade in the area of Israel and it surroundings. Granted Greek was more widespread, but Jesus Christ spoke Hebrew.

Well the 'lingua franca' of Rome was Greek, and we are talking about the letter written to believers at Rome, are we not?

You can read more here about the language/culture issues in the known world (including Israel) from about 400 BCE well into the first century and beyond:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization”

-JGIG

 

[JaumeJ]

Here are some synomyms for you. Teacher and Instructor. To Teach and to Instruct. We are not here to split hairs, we are here to study the Word. The Word is instruction, and Torah is the teachings in just as many translations or definitions as it may be instruction.

Let us remain with discussing the points of the OP and the Word, and not continue on this line of one upmanship in grammar. My input is strictly on what has been said about the word, torah. Try to stay with the Word and the actual discussion in the Bible Discussion thread here.

Even a cursory study? The condescension is not necessary, JaumeJ, and very misplaced.

Let me ask you a question: Do you know where the doctrine of Yeshua being the 'Living Torah' comes from?

If your post is the limit of your knowledge on the subject, your studies are incomplete. I'm fully aware that one of Torah's meanings is 'instruction' (check out God's instructions/Torah after the Cross, btw, in 1 Jn. 3:23-24).

According to what you've written above, you are reducing the God of all creation to a set of instructions, and elevating a set of instructions to Godhood.

You're replacing the logos of God with the graphe of God. Do you even know why you're doing that? (not a rhetorical question - there is a reason - I just am trying to find out if you even know where that belief comes from . . . )

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

How can you say that God wants us to not know how he created His world to run? In the Torah God explains creation and how our world runs, and you are telling us to ignore that!! It would be impossible to put on Christ when you disavow all of His Father.

I didn't say that.

That's you, as you so often do, lying about what I've said to discredit me (and other posters to whom you do the same thing). It really is very deceitful. You, know, lying, which is breaking one of the Ten Commandments you claim to revere.

All Scripture is useful for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).

That does not mean that those in Christ are bound to the Law.

The Scriptures are clear: Those in Christ are no longer under the Law, we are severed, dead to, released from the Law.

Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2

-JGIG

AS you judge truth as liars, when god tells us that God is one, that scripture is a unit, that all of God's children are one in the Lord, yet you put yourself out of the family of God by calling others in he family liar shows that you are not speaking truth. If you were of truth, your speech would be different.

You also put yourself outside of the way the Lord created the world by putting yourself outside of the law. You say that your world in different from the world that God created. You cannot be of Christ and outside of the world as God created it, it is not possible. God's world is created with law. You have put yourself outside of the law you say.

I'm not judging Truth as a liar, I'm showing you that by your own words you are a liar. I never said, nor did I ever imply the things you accused me of.

As for the rest of your post, back it up with Scripture if you can. What you say is just not there. In fact, God never wanted to relate to mankind on a basis of the knowledge of good and evil (remember the tree He said to NOT eat from?); He always wanted to relate to mankind by His Life (that would be that other Tree - the one we could eat from).

I encourage you to keep striving under the Law - it will eventually do its job. But you have to go after it full force; every jot and tittle. None of this Feast, Day keeping, dietary law keeping, and tzit tzit wearing only. ALL of the Law. Every bit. If you don't, you violate it all.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Even a cursory study? The condescension is not necessary, JaumeJ, and very misplaced.

Let me ask you a question: Do you know where the doctrine of Yeshua being the 'Living Torah' comes from?

If your post is the limit of your knowledge on the subject, your studies are incomplete. I'm fully aware that one of Torah's meanings is 'instruction' (check out God's instructions/Torah after the Cross, btw, in 1 Jn. 3:23-24).

According to what you've written above, you are reducing the God of all creation to a set of instructions, and elevating a set of instructions to Godhood.

You're replacing the logos of God with the graphe of God. Do you even know why you're doing that? (not a rhetorical question - there is a reason - I just am trying to find out if you even know where that belief comes from . . . )

-JGIG

Here are some synomyms for you. Teacher and Instructor. To Teach and to Instruct. We are not here to split hairs, we are here to study the Word. The Word is instruction, and Torah is the teachings in just as many translations or definitions as it may be instruction.

Here's a concept for you:

Teacher and teachings.

You worship the teachings if you wish; I choose to worship the Teacher (Creator not the creation, Reality not the shadow).

Let us remain with discussing the points of the OP and the Word, and not continue on this line of one upmanship in grammar. My input is strictly on what has been said about the word, torah. Try to stay with the Word and the actual discussion in the Bible Discussion thread here.

Trying to shut me down, JaumeJ?

The OP asks if the Hebrew Roots Movement is a cult. Cults have heresy. Yeshua is the Living Torah is a heresy.

You never answered my question, btw: Do you know where the belief that Yeshua is the Living Torah comes from?

-JGIG

 

[JaumeJ]

It is only wise to go back to what the Holy Spirit imparts to the individual believer. No one need study another language to understand and learn, for it is the Holy Spirit Who imparts true understanding, wisdom and learning.

I have recently comepleted readomg the Old Testament in Hebrew, and it was wonderful for me, but I do not believe anyone who is guided by the Holy Spirit needs to read in another tongue.

Because I studied linguistics and languages in my university days, I love to learn languages, but it stops at that reason, not to use this knowledge as some form of weapon demonstrating some superiority because of it.

I have learned what I know by the Holy Spirit, and reading in no matter what language only serves to underscore what was confirmed when receiving the Holy Spirit. Anyone who believes knows this.

One valuable lesson was taught to me by a young man who was illiterate, yet he had knowledge by the Holy Spirit. When he began to relate what he had learned I bordered on scoffing, but listening to him I was humbled and blessed immensely.

Your Greek and my Hebrew amount to a big 0 in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

It's always wise to go back to the original language in which a passage was penned for clarification when needed, such as when someone is saying that a passage does not say that which it clearly says.



Well the 'lingua franca' of Rome was Greek, and we are talking about the letter written to believers at Rome, are we not?

You can read more here about the language/culture issues in the known world (including Israel) from about 400 BCE well into the first century and beyond:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization”

-JGIG

 

[JaumeJ]

Your posted the following Here's a concept for you:

"Teacher and teachings.

You worship the teachings if you wish; I choose to worship the Teacher (Creator not the creation, Reality not the shadow)."

Nowhere have I even begun to intimate worshipping anything other than the Master, which also means Teacher.

It is obvious you are looking for conflict........good bye. Learn to share the Word with brethren in Yeshua, it is not to be used to badger the family in Christ as you are attempting here......again, good-bye.

 

[LT]

umm, Christ IS the Word. The Torah(Pentateuch) /OT are all the Word of God, along with the NT.

The Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets who wrote the OT, including Moses(who wrote the Torah).

The Torah is the Living Word of God, just like the rest of the Bible. God breathed and useful!

 

[JGIG]

No, Christ is not the 'Living Torah'.

If that were the case, then Torah is God.

If you believe that, you have crossed the line into idolatry.

That is one of the heresies found in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

-JGIG

Were you to execute even a cursory study of the definition of the word, Torah, you will find it means teaching as well as the law. Most times when the word, law, is used in the New Testament, it is referring to the teachings in general, not just the laws written down by Moses.

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Word, He is the teaching, and one should not be so quick on the trigger if he has not checked for valid ammunition. Actualy, one should not judge others at all. No one has crossed any line, except for one who may be judgine another's servant.

To say Jesus Christ is Torah with understanding is perfectly correct. Did you ask if the person means just the law? He is also those teachings for He is all of the Word. All that is written is for our edification, not for our editing. It is from God.

Your posted the following Here's a concept for you:

"Teacher and teachings.

You worship the teachings if you wish; I choose to worship the Teacher (Creator not the creation, Reality not the shadow)."

Nowhere have I even begun to intimate worshipping anything other than the Master, which also means Teacher.

When you stated that "Jesus Christ is Torah", you diminished Christ to a written set of instructions given at Sinai and elevated a written set of instructions given at Sinai to Godhood.

It is obvious you are looking for conflict........good bye. Learn to share the Word with brethren in Yeshua, it is not to be used to badger the family in Christ as you are attempting here......again, good-bye.

Nope, not me. You're the one who came implying my ignorance on these matters. Just stating Truth based on contextual Scripture for the record.

Tell me, will you also be 'correcting' Red Tent for her repeated 'badgering' and numerous false accusations against the 'family in Christ'?

Will you?

By the way, you never answered my question: Where does that belief that Yeshua is the Living Torah come from? Do you even know?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

umm, Christ IS the Word. The Torah(Pentateuch) /OT are all the Word of God, along with the NT.

The Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets who wrote the OT, including Moses(who wrote the Torah).

The Torah is the Living Word of God, just like the rest of the Bible. God breathed and useful!

Yes, but a partial representation of God, where Christ is the FULL representation of God.

Don't confuse the Logos (full representation/expression) of God for the graphe (written Word) of God.

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (from Jn. 5)


​

The Scriptures are not God; they bear witness about God. It's important to maintain that distinction, or the Scriptures can become an idol, like they did for the Pharisees (and for some modern-day Pharisees), and because of it, they refused Him Who really could give them Life.

-JGIG

 

[LT]

Yes, but a partial representation of God, where Christ is the FULL representation of God.

Don't confuse the Logos (full representation/expression) of God for the graphe (written Word) of God.

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (from Jn. 5)


​

The Scriptures are not God; they bear witness about God. It's important to maintain that distinction, or the Scriptures can become an idol, like they did for the Pharisees (and for some modern-day Pharisees), and because of it, they refused Him Who really could give them Life.

-JGIG

If Christ breaths life into all Scripture through the Holy Spirit, then it is alive, and rightfully called the Living Word.
If all Scripture is God breathed, than the Torah is also the living Word.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Word, because He is the Word.
The Bible is the partial, made complete in Christ, and through the working and power of the Holy Spirit.

It is not good to say that the Torah is not part of the Living Word.

 

[LT]

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[LT]

The Scriptures are not God; they bear witness about God. It's important to maintain that distinction, or the Scriptures can become an idol, like they did for the Pharisees (and for some modern-day Pharisees), and because of it, they refused Him Who really could give them Life.

-JGIG

The Pharisees did not hold to that doctrine. Where did you get that from?
Their lack of respect for the Word is why they held to the Talmud.
The Sadducees on the other hand, rejected the Talmud, but also rejected the power of the Word as a whole, and were focused on the cultural and governmental system given within the Scriptures, which gave them legal and social power, and governmental control.

 

[LT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and missed this in the thread, but I don't believe anyone here has stated that the Bible is God.

I am not sure anyone even went so far as to say that the Bible is the image of God (which isn't totally illogical, just not supported directly in Scripture).

Why fight this position of the Bible being worshiped as God, when this position is not represented here on the forum?

 

[JGIG]

If Christ breaths life into all Scripture through the Holy Spirit, then it is alive, and rightfully called the Living Word.
If all Scripture is God breathed, than the Torah is also the living Word.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Word, because He is the Word.
The Bible is the partial, made complete in Christ, and through the working and power of the Holy Spirit.

It is not good to say that the Torah is not part of the Living Word.

I'm not saying that Torah is not a part of God's written Word. Where are you getting that?

I understand where you're coming from, but you're adding something to Scripture that is not there.

You're taking one translation that says 'God breathed' and equating that with the breath of Life given to man.

Here's 2 Tim. 3:16:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

The Greek for 'inspired' is

G2315 - theopneustos

1. inspired by God​

1. the contents of the scriptures​

You may be thinking of this passage:


12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. (from Heb. 4, NIV)


Let's take a look at the KJV and the ESV:


12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (KJV)

12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. (ESV)


Is the Word there the Scriptures or Christ?

It is Christ, the Logos of God: Hebrews 4 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

And the word 'quick' or description, 'living and active' - again, is descriptive of the Risen Christ:

G2198 - zaō

1. to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
2. to enjoy real life​

1. to have true life and worthy of the name
2. active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
​

3. to live i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting1. of mortals or character
4. living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul​

5. metaph. to be in full vigour​

1. to be fresh, strong, efficient,​

2. as adj. active, powerful, efficacious​

When I first studied this out, it blew me away. And helped me to see the Scriptures more accurately. I LOVE my Bible; I often find myself gently stroking its pages as I read. It is a wonderful, yet partial expression of God. We are to look to Christ for the full expression of God.


-JGIG

 

[LT]

Here's 2 Tim. 3:16:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

The Greek for 'inspired' is

G2315 - theopneustos

1. inspired by God​

1. the contents of the scriptures​

-JGIG

theo pneustos
literally means by the breath of God.

pneustos is the same root as pneumatic, which we use today to describe air compressors.

Even the word 'inspired' in English means to 'breath into'.

-------
As for the other passage, the phrase 'word of God' is not used to mean 'the risen Christ' anywhere else in Scripture, but always refers to Scripture itself.

I don't see the logical connecting points, except forcing meaning upon a passage for a specific agenda.

 

[JGIG]

The adversary always seeks to destroy God's Word. Torah is a Lamp and a Light, and Messiah is the Living Torah, the Word.

. . .

To say Jesus Christ is Torah with understanding is perfectly correct.

. . .

Correct me if I'm wrong, and missed this in the thread, but I don't believe anyone here has stated that the Bible is God.

I am not sure anyone even went so far as to say that the Bible is the image of God (which isn't totally illogical, just not supported directly in Scripture).

Why fight this position of the Bible being worshiped as God, when this position is not represented here on the forum?

It has been presented on this thread, as seen above, and is a common belief in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

-JGIG

 

[LT]

It has been presented on this thread, as seen above, and is a common belief in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

-JGIG

well, I personally wouldn't go as far as to say what they said, but I won't rebuke them for it either. I would rebuke them if they were to go any further, and/or if they expressed legalism/ faith through works of the Law.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please be advised, all. Most of the folks here who recognize Jesus Christ as having walked the earth, His earth, as a Jew are not Hebrew Roots. Like I, most are attempting to understand the Word as closely as possible to how it was delivered by Yahweh, God, and by His Apostles and Prophets by the clarification by Jesus Christ, Yeshua, in giving us His Gospel.

There is no other gospel. Should there be any conflict in any accpted writings as per interpretation, others and I always go to what is taught by the Master, Himself, for there is no greater authority.

When one worships the Word, that is all the instruction contained therein, he is worshipping Jesus Christ, Yeshua, as Lord and Salvation.

There seems to be great confusion from some thinking worshipping the Word is apart from worshipping Yeshua. I advise those who believe this to read the first chapter of John, then the resto of the Word.

Anyone having read my own posts saying I am Hebrew Roots is either not very bright or a liar, for I belong to no named theology, nor do I have plans to associate myself with any.

 

[JGIG]

theo pneustos
literally means by the breath of God.

pneustos is the same root as pneumatic, which we use today to describe air compressors.

Even the word 'inspired' in English means to 'breath into'.

-------
As for the other passage, the phrase 'word of God' is not used to mean 'the risen Christ' anywhere else in Scripture, but always refers to Scripture itself.

I don't see the logical connecting points, except forcing meaning upon a passage for a specific agenda.

On the contrary, you are using a root word fallacy to prove your 'God breathed' concept into 2 Tim. 3:16 instead of defining the word that actually appears in the text.

If God 'breathed' His Word, then it must be alive like you or I or the angels, yet we see no evidence of this in the Scriptures themselves. Remember, Heb. 4 is about Christ, not the written Word.

If one asserts that the Scriptures are God Himself, then one must be prepared to add to the God-head: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Scriptures.

See how that goes if you carry it out to it's logical conclusion?

Yet we see no evidence for that in the Scriptures themselves, either.

-JGIG

. . .
When one worships the Word, that is all the instruction contained therein, he is worshipping Jesus Christ, Yeshua, as Lord and Salvation.

There seems to be great confusion from some thinking worshipping the Word is apart from worshipping Yeshua. I advise those who believe this to read the first chapter of John, then the resto of the Word.
. . .