Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

So you then do not believe in Spirit baptism of Christ, you beleive water Baptism is salvation is this a yes or a no?
Just want it clear not fumbled around as you do so well
Please yes or no? is it Water only?

I believe in Holy Spirit baptism, it was recorded in the NT twice, once to the apostles, once to the house of Cornelius, but it does not save you, it did not save them, the one and only saving baptism is the one in Eph. 4:5, is is the one Peter speaks of in 1 Pet. 3:20-21 it is the one that the disciples can do Matt. 28:19, it is the one that washed away the sins of all that have done it such as Paul Acts. 22:16.

The Holy Spirit baptism and the baptism of Fire can only be done by Jesus Matt. 3:11, Jesus commissioned the disciples to baptize :

 Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[VCO]

Worth repeating, we are saved by the washing AND REGENERATION of the Holy Spirit. We are saved by grace TO DO GOOD WORKS. Grace, salvation and faith are misinterpreted by you. To say grace is a free gift is like saying my shirt is purple. That tells me nothing about it except whatever it is, it is free. The Grace of God is Him putting His Spirit within us empowering us to DO His will. The Spirit of Christ in us, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead - this Spirit of Grace that hovered over darkness and formlessness waiting for the Word - lives in us. So that when God says "Be ye holy for I am holy." Then we renew all doubt to the contrary and persist in meditating on those words prayerfully and the Spirit of Grace which gives us the desire to be holy empowers to act holy. Faith without works is dead. The word faith in that passage of James is talking about the doctrines of Jesus Christ. If we claim Him as Lord and say we believe but do not obey the doctrines then are faith is dead. I ask you as James asks, "Can that kind of faith SAVE you?" No, it can not.

One of the main points that most of us here have been trying to point out to those who want to believe it is their works that will ultimately save them; is that Saved by GRACE and the gift of Faith are sown in us by the Holy Spirit Himself. THAT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SOWN IN US, WILL PRODUCE A HARVEST OF FAITHFULNESS AND GOOD WORKS. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT OUR WORKS THAT SAVED US, IT IS BELIEVING AND RECIEVING JESUS CHRIST AS LORD, WHICH IS PURELY A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS.

 

[VCO]

. . .
The Holy Spirit baptism and the baptism of Fire can only be done by Jesus . . .

Ahhh, I had better cancel my order from that Army Surplus Store for a Fire Hose and Flame Thrower. LOL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Holy Spirit baptism and the baptism of Fire can only be done by Jesus

yep.

You better make up your mind.

Be baptized with the HS. to eternal life.

or be baptized with fire, which shall never be quenched, or eternal fire (hell)

But you WILL be baptized by Jesus like it or not.

 

[secularhermit]

Re: Salvation Not Possible Without Works

I just see it from my human perspective (my secular one). If I say "I love my spouse" and I cheat on her (even physically or emotonallY) my words and deeds worth nothing.

If I say "I´m saved" I´m lying to myself, because Jesus said: "Two will be in a field or a bed... and one will be left".

Luk 17:34 "I can guarantee that on that night if two people are in one bed, one will be taken and the other one will be left.

Mat 24:40-42

Mat 25:2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.

Gifts can be lost and, acordingly, we have to live or act with coherency: None who has said "I love her/him" would live an empty life because he/she is "saved" by loving (or believeing) he/she is loved up to taht day Jesus showed MANY will be surprised when left behind (and out):

Mat 25:11 "Later the other bridesmaids arrived and said, 'Sir, sir, open the door for us!'
Mat 25:12 "But he answered them, 'I don't even know who you are!'
Mat 25:13 "So stay awake, because you don't know the day or the hour.
Mat 25:14 "The kingdom of heaven is like a man going on a trip. He called his servants and entrusted some money (talents) to them.
Mat 25:15 He gave one man ten thousand dollars, another four thousand dollars, and another two thousand dollars. Each was given money based on his ability. Then the man went on his trip.
Mat 25:16 "The one who received ten thousand dollars invested the money at once and doubled his money.
Mat 25:17 The one who had four thousand dollars did the same and also doubled his money.
Mat 25:18 But the one who received two thousand dollars went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.

Talents were given to produce WORKS (and more gifts).

 

[posthuman]

Isn't it odd how the other brother gets so angry and does not attend the party.

yeah,, I have to ask myself what that represents.

↨​

According to you, everyone is saved... we should just throw our bibles away, God did everything for us, sent His Son so we could do nothing but sit and wait for heaven, and if anyone is lost, it is Gods fault, because he didn't do the work for them.

do you not want a slice of pie if everyone else can have one too?

→ ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.

It was fitting to celebrate and be glad,

​

for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’​

(Luke 15:31-32)


Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

(Romans 12:15) ​

 

[VCO]

Re: Salvation Not Possible Without Works

I just see it from my human perspective (my secular one). If I say "I love my spouse" and I cheat on her (even physically or emotonallY) my words and deeds worth nothing.

If I say "I´m saved" I´m lying to myself, because Jesus said: "Two will be in a field or a bed... and one will be left".

Luk 17:34 "I can guarantee that on that night if two people are in one bed, one will be taken and the other one will be left.

Mat 24:40-42

Mat 25:2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.

Gifts can be lost and, acordingly, we have to live or act with coherency: None who has said "I love her/him" would live an empty life because he/she is "saved" by loving (or believeing) he/she is loved up to taht day Jesus showed MANY will be surprised when left behind (and out):

Mat 25:11 "Later the other bridesmaids arrived and said, 'Sir, sir, open the door for us!'
Mat 25:12 "But he answered them, 'I don't even know who you are!'
Mat 25:13 "So stay awake, because you don't know the day or the hour.
Mat 25:14 "The kingdom of heaven is like a man going on a trip. He called his servants and entrusted some money (talents) to them.
Mat 25:15 He gave one man ten thousand dollars, another four thousand dollars, and another two thousand dollars. Each was given money based on his ability. Then the man went on his trip.
Mat 25:16 "The one who received ten thousand dollars invested the money at once and doubled his money.
Mat 25:17 The one who had four thousand dollars did the same and also doubled his money.
Mat 25:18 But the one who received two thousand dollars went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.

Talents were given to produce WORKS (and more gifts).

Those verses you quoted about two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left, and two will be in a bed and one will be taken and the other left; Are about a time in the future (perhaps soon) when Christ appears in the Clouds to have the Archangel call His Bride the Church out of her old dwelling place, earth. We will be called out to go to Wedding of the Lamb, to His Bride the Church. The wedding will take place in Heaven in our New Dwelling Place, the New Jerusalem. Christ is following all of the traditions of a Jewish Wedding, hence HE left to build us a New Dwelling Place in His Father's House.

If we take those verses LITERALLY, and I certainly do; it is telling us that approximately 50% of those who call themselves Christians, only know about Jesus, instead of REALLY Knowing Him with that inner personal LOVE relationship where we Believe and Received HIM as LORD and MASTER. The exact same 50% shows up elsewhere in the teaching of Jesus, in those who settled for something other than a Real Love relationship with JESUS as LORD and Master, in the Parable of 10 Virgins in Mat. 25. The Oil the Foolish ones were missing, is symbolism for the Holy Spirit Himself and one CANNOT genuinely Believe and Receive Jesus as LORD without the Holy Spirit empowering us to do so.

I hope that is helpful and understandable to you.

 

[Kerry]

Have you ever thought how this one world government comes about. I'm just throwing this out there. There is going to be a huge revival where millions of people get saved. Then the rapture comes. Can you imagine what that would do to a nations economy if 30%, 40%, 50% of it's work vanished. It would force nations to come together and be primed for a leader that had the answers. It just makes sense. I meant farmers gone, doctors gone, lawyers gone, factory workers gone, and so forth.

 

[Apostol2013]

We are all guilty of hell. none of us have merited entering the Kingdom.
We only escape hell and enter the Kingdom by hiding in Christ.

but how is this accomplished , and why does Christ demand repentance Jesus does not speak to the heathen but speaks to the his churches , i suggest a better mentor or pastor or even a new church as I am not suggesting this out of my personal agenda or any other reason that i would like to see all of you edified peace of Christ be unto you....

 

[VCO]

Have you ever thought how this one world government comes about. I'm just throwing this out there. There is going to be a huge revival where millions of people get saved. Then the rapture comes. Can you imagine what that would do to a nations economy if 30%, 40%, 50% of it's work vanished. It would force nations to come together and be primed for a leader that had the answers. It just makes sense. I meant farmers gone, doctors gone, lawyers gone, factory workers gone, and so forth.

The biggest revival will happen after we are gone to the Wedding of the LAMB. That is when the two witnesses of Revelation turn multitudes to Believe in Christ. Until then, we are the FEW.

Luke 13:23-24 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

But can you imagine what the unbelieving CNN reporters will say about our disappearance? I can hear it now, "The Russians have a new secret weapon that vaporizes people." "Or Aliens must have zapped them, or abducted them." Oh some will know and understand what really happened, but the majority of unbelievers will remain in the UNBELIEF.

 

[LT]

but how is this accomplished , and why does Christ demand repentance Jesus does not speak to the heathen but speaks to the his churches , i suggest a better mentor or pastor or even a new church as I am not suggesting this out of my personal agenda or any other reason that i would like to see all of you edified peace of Christ be unto you....

in His earthly ministry, Jesus spoke to 4 types of people:

His Disciples
Jews
Gentiles
His Enemies

To each group He spoke differently.

To the Jews He preached the Law, but a harder Law. The Law Christ presented to the Jews condemned them all. No man has ever lived without getting angry even once, or glancing at a girl with a bit of lust.


Don't think for one second that I don't agree with repentance being needed. The problem is about where repentance come from: self, or Holy Spirit.
If a man repents, it is not his own doing, but a work of the Holy Spirit living within him.

 

[danalee]

Have you ever thought how this one world government comes about. I'm just throwing this out there. There is going to be a huge revival where millions of people get saved. Then the rapture comes. Can you imagine what that would do to a nations economy if 30%, 40%, 50% of it's work vanished. It would force nations to come together and be primed for a leader that had the answers. It just makes sense. I meant farmers gone, doctors gone, lawyers gone, factory workers gone, and so forth.

I like this post Kerry. It certainly does seem like this is happening right now. I watched growing up as the farm economy changed through the eighties. My grandfather was at the height of success when it all came crashing down and small farms vanished. A whole lifestyle was replaced and it was a detriment as this country was built on the foundations of family owned and run businesses. And in healthcare, this is now happening. At one time hospitals were run by religious organizations and physicians devoted to the people they served. Now healthcare is run by wall street types who use the floating monies as investments, and the corporation as an asset to influence investors. Greed has corrupted from top to bottom this industry and no politician could save it. Things are now worse than ever for those who fall sick. And it will keep getting worse. And attorneys do have trouble finding work. In the seventies a man could support his family without a college degree, now everyone has a college degree which is worthless. Now you need a graduate degree to make a living wage, and the colleges are making out like bandits. Students are graduating with degrees they can't use because we still need a labor class and now labor has been pushed down to poverty. Now you need a two worker family income, which has effectively destroyed families and has driven up divorce rates. Factory workers? Where? In China, that's where. We are a consumer economy and our consumption is based on imaginary money which is actually debt. This also is setting up a world economy because our only hope is to somehow yield to the foreign countries that have all of our lost industries. They are setting us up. People are crying out all over the place, one, one....we are all one. Which is heresy unless we can say we are all one messed up world. Please Lord, come for us, I am so ready.

 

[SeaBass]

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

So here you go, humbly and Mercy is what bring justly into play you think?

DO justly and WALK humbly with God are obedient works.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you hate that by Faith in the finished work of Father through Son, we have been given mercy that we do not deserve. as what God did for the Ninevites with Jonah, and Jonah was mad over this Mercy given, who knew they did not deserve to be pardoned, yet God pardoned them

I am trhankful for God's pardon through Son to me and as well for all that will choose to beleive God and thank God for God to do this while we all were still yet unbelievers in God's Love to all from day one of the fall, and he had Mercy on them and clothed them

The point I was making that you did not address is how advocates of "faith only" will cherry-pick verses that mention "believe" while ignoring all other salvic verses as Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 or Mk 16:16. Isn't is obvious as to why they cherry pick?

 

[SeaBass]

God gave the measure of Faith I have, and am grateful to be at the very least a toilet bowl scrubber in the kingdom, that I have been invited to through Son, and the work that gets done here on earth is as an ambassador, representing the kingdom of God in love Joy, peace and God's righteousness, saying to the people of this earth come live here in heaven in the Spirit of God through the finished work of Son, and be put back here on earth too; as an ambassador representing the truth of Love from God to all who will believe

ROm 10:17 faith comes by hearing. Faith is not something God randomly gives to some while withholding it from others for that idea puts fault and blame upon God for the faithless.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you not see or understand that Abraham's faith and Noah's Faith brought the works of God forward through them God work is the by-product of Believing God, it is God's work not mine and if God decides to give me credit then God does and if not then not
I trust God whom is the only one righteous, and am thankful from God through Christ I was invited to join in and participate in God's righteousness
The difference in self works and Faith in the finished works of Christ and the response is thanfulness being relieved of worry and strife, therefore we do as we go about here in this life ready to give an account for our joy, to all who see and ask in season and out. it is all God and not me, I am nothing more that God's vessel to be used by God as and whenever God sees fit, And you do you see this as truth or error?

I see that Abraham's and Noah's faith would have been D-E-A-D without works. What good would have been Abrahams' faith if he did not obey by leaving land, house and kindred to a land God would show him, Heb 11:8?

 

[SeaBass]

Delivering you to Father to deal with you as Father sees fit, knowing god knows who is who, thank you, love you, flesh needs to be destroiyed obviously, that in the day you might be saved and me too, if my flesh is destroyed

Rom 5:2 shows/proves tha grace alone cannot save. How many faithless people will grace alone save? None, zero, nil, nada, zilch

 

[SeaBass]

and that is IF you continue in the FAith, not of works, unless one boasts, get it, praying so

1 jn 2:24; 2 pet 1:8; James 5:19 among others use the conditional word "IF" when it comes to being saved. So salvation can be forfeited.

 

[SeaBass]

Luke 18:9-14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [SUP]14[/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

THis man lived under the OT law and not under Christ's NT law so e is not an example of NT salvation. But even here salvation was CONDTIONAL upon humbling himself....1 Pet 5:5.

 

[SeaBass]

Christ is the righteous one and the only one God was and is pleased in of the flesh, Chirst's flesh is the only flesh that ever pleased Father and ever will, so it is through Christ we are made righteous only
The way, the truth and the new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ no one gets to Father but by Christ and then Father teaches us truth over error and we stop self works trusting for Father's works through us the same as Christ did in the power of Father through the Holy Spirit of truth leading him, is that tooooooooooooooooooo simple?

Does God reckon righteous those that continue to live in unrighteousness/sin? No. For one must FIRST 'work rightoeusness' [Acts 10:35], that is, obey God's will and then God reckons them as righteous.