Calvinism taking over Southern Baptists

[Jda016]

I always understood total depravity in the sense that man can never please God outside of faith in Jesus Christ.

So we can never do anything to obtain our own salvation, however we can believe (which is a choice) and trust in Jesus for our salvation.

I see it like a drowning man in an ocean. This man can do nothing to save himself. Unless someone helps him, he will die. Suddenly a life preserver is thrown into the water by a ship's captain (Jesus) and when the person sees the life preserver they grab hold of it (this is believing in Christ and placing faith in him). Thus this man is now saved from drowning. He can't boast that he saved himself by grabbing hold of the life preserver, he can only boast in the salvation that the ship captain freely gave him.

the Calvinist doctrine of Total depravity (as it was explained to me) says that man is so depraved that he can't even grab the life preserver (he is so depraved that it is impossible for him to believe unless elected first). This is what I don't exactly agree with, just because we find so many scriptures telling us to believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ or trust, or follow, etc which are all action verbs on our part.

 

[Skinski7]

You have your history a bit off, an are mislabeling what I have stated.
The ancient gnostics taught secret knowledge as the source of salvation.
Dualism was never orthodox. The doctrine of Original Sin is dualism because it teaches a dual nature of man. It places the root of sin to be a hereditary "sin nature" passed down from Adam. This "sin nature" is taught to never be overcome in this life because it is connected to the flesh body, thus those whom are saved are saved "provisionally" apart from the actual manifest condition of their heart. While the wording may be a little different the underlying theme is pure gnostic dualism and this teaching was able to infiltrate orthodox Christianity in the Fourth Century via the prolific influence of Augustine of Hippo who adopted dualist notions in his exposure to neo-platonic Greek philosophy and in particular the Manicheaen sect of which he was a member before his conversion to Catholicism under Ambrose. This is documented history.
Zoroastrian philosophy has always been considered heretical.

If you don't like seeing human depravity which is clearly displayed within Scripture, that is on you.
Gnostics believed that humans were innately good, but hindered. The gnostics taught a philosophy of "light vs darkness" and they viewed the material world as evil. They viewed the spiritual world as good. Sin was a result of the spirit being trapped in the physical. The Catholic Church adopted many of the fundamentals of this philosophy but developed it into a Christian context, this is why you had the later developments of self mortification in some of the Catholic orders.
What the Bible teaches is the humans are innately wicked, and only faith in Christ can free us, by rebirth in the Spirit. The Bible teaches that "sinners" are innately wicked. It does not teach that "humans are innately wicked." Babies are not innately wicked nor are those whom serve God in Spirit and truth.

Was Abel innately wicked?Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Were the parents of John the Baptist innately wicked?

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I know you are unwilling to change your mind about this, so this is my last post about it with you. That is fine by me. I won't have to bother with your rhetoric.

What people like you do is isolate and proof text very specific scriptures in an attempt to prove this birth depravity stuff and you avoid like the plague passages which speak of righteous people. The Bible is not a book of proof texts, it is a message presented as a harmonious whole, here a little and there a little.

The doctrine of birth depravity undermines the responsibility of men for their sin and shifts the blame to God.

 

[posthuman]

i get the feeling a lot of us have had preachers we trust tell us "Calvanism is apostasy" without ever explaining what 'Calvanism' is.

how about we follow Christ, and not Calvin, not Wesley, not Luther, not the Pope, nor our pastor, but Christ?

 

[TrustInJesus]

i get the feeling a lot of us have had preachers we trust tell us "Calvanism is apostasy" without ever explaining what 'Calvanism' is.

how about we follow Christ, and not Calvin, not Wesley, not Luther, not the Pope, nor our pastor, but Christ?

But then somebody might actually get along.

 

[Skinski7]

I always understood total depravity in the sense that man can never please God outside of faith in Jesus Christ.

So we can never do anything to obtain our own salvation, however we can believe (which is a choice) and trust in Jesus for our salvation. We cannot do anything apart from the grace of God because it is the grace of God which teaches us the way to go. A human being without God would be totally lost in the dark without hope. Yet this dependency on God does not negate the ability to choose good or evil. God's grace is evident to all men through the light of conscience so the concept that "man can save Himself apart from God" is really a strawman reply that Calvinists will use.

I see it like a drowning man in an ocean. This man can do nothing to save himself. Unless someone helps him, he will die. Suddenly a life preserver is thrown into the water by a ship's captain (Jesus) and when the person sees the life preserver they grab hold of it (this is believing in Christ and placing faith in him). Thus this man is now saved from drowning. He can't boast that he saved himself by grabbing hold of the life preserver, he can only boast in the salvation that the ship captain freely gave him.

the Calvinist doctrine of Total depravity (as it was explained to me) says that man is so depraved that he can't even grab the life preserver (he is so depraved that it is impossible for him to believe unless elected first). This is what I don't exactly agree with, just because we find so many scriptures telling us to believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ or trust, or follow, etc which are all action verbs on our part. Their doctrine of Total Depravity is extremely dangerous and unfortunately there are not many people who can see the true consequences of it. It is not a debate between Arminianism vs Calvinism, because both systems teach birth depravity, the Arminian side just try and reconcile free-will into the equation.

Thanks for your post.

 

[Desdichado]

This thread only serves to remind me why I tend to avoid Baptist Churches now.

Ask them about deeper theological issues and all you get is a lack of clarity.

 

[Jda016]

i get the feeling a lot of us have had preachers we trust tell us "Calvanism is apostasy" without ever explaining what 'Calvanism' is.

how about we follow Christ, and not Calvin, not Wesley, not Luther, not the Pope, nor our pastor, but Christ?

I completely agree. The problem I have seen though is people being fanatical about Calvin. In my own personal experience I have never found people fanatical about Luther, Wesley or anyone else, but I have encountered a ton of Calvinism and I find it odd how desperately people point to Calvin and the 5 points.

 

[Desdichado]

I completely agree. The problem I have seen though is people being fanatical about Calvin. In my own personal experience I have never found people fanatical about Luther, Wesley or anyone else, but I have encountered a ton of Calvinism and I find it odd how desperately people point to Calvin and the 5 points.

That is interesting, because I do not think I have ever met a fanatical Calvinist in person. Most that I meet are wishy washy on the Five Points and say "the truth is somewhere in between, but I largely align with Calvin."

Fanatical Wesleyans? Yes I've met plenty of those, but it comes with the territory of spending 15 years or so of your life within the Wesleyan Church. The Wesley quotes would fly.

Come to think of it, I've never seen a Calvinist really quote Calvin either.

 

[notuptome]

When Adam fell he took upon himself and all mankind the responsibility of choice. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil. Man can and indeed must choose between good and evil. Man is no longer innocent.

Consider John 3:18-19 and we have Jesus showing us that men indeed do choose and the reason why they choose as they do. John 1 tells us that God gives all men enough light to make the choice.

I would say that everything in the tulip of Calvinism is biblical but most if not all Calvinists exceed the biblical limits with their own implications. In other words they add to what is in Gods word and form it into what they think it should be not what God has said it truly is.

Predestination is not readily understood and again almost always misrepresented. Stick with the bible and through the bible understand what is taught by Calvin and Arminius.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Skinski7]

I completely agree. The problem I have seen though is people being fanatical about Calvin. In my own personal experience I have never found people fanatical about Luther, Wesley or anyone else, but I have encountered a ton of Calvinism and I find it odd how desperately people point to Calvin and the 5 points.

The issue is not Calvinism at all. Calvinism is but a symptom of a much deeper error.

Satan's first lie was...

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Satan's lie was that one could disobey God and not surely die.

The doctrine of "birth depravity" serves as the foundation for this lie of Satan to be taught as theological truth. If human beings sin by necessity (due to a birth nature) then they are not truly responsible for their sin and the issue between man and God is no longer an issue which concerns the "free exercise of the will." The issue instead becomes that of a "natural state."

Satan has appended "ye shall not surely die" with "sin you will and sin you must."

"Sin you will and sin you must" is a result of being "born sinful." Thus a false gospel is then preached which is inclusive of this deception of "sin you will and sin you must" which necessitates a salvation of "ye shall not surely die." Thus a gospel message was invented which teaches that salvation is purely an abstract provision which negates the consequence of "ye shall surely die" from the ongoing state of "sin you will and sin you must." In other words salvation is twisted into being a cloak for ongoing iniquity. Think carefully about this as I am not blowing smoke here.

This deception would have to be one of the most crafty and insidious deceptions ever invented because it uses the actual text of Scripture to back it up, albeit by isolating and proof texting particular passages completely out of context. This deception inoculates the mind against the real truth very effectively because it is constructed of layer upon layer of error with one error appearing to substantiate another. Doctrines like Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ, Once Saved Always Saved are really just necessary developments of the deeper underlying error. It is the perfect example of how a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Only by digging to the root of the whole thing can all this be exposed for what it actually is.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Here is some good commentary which relates to this thread.

[video=youtube;u4qGB7RVFk0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qGB7RVFk0[/video]

everyone is a heritic if they don't believe exactly how you do i suppose

 

[crossnote]

This isn't rocket science...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death (and all die) came from sin ( and as a result all have sinned) which came through Adam.

Adam---->Sin--->Death.

 

[Jda016]

That is interesting, because I do not think I have ever met a fanatical Calvinist in person. Most that I meet are wishy washy on the Five Points and say "the truth is somewhere in between, but I largely align with Calvin."

Fanatical Wesleyans? Yes I've met plenty of those, but it comes with the territory of spending 15 years or so of your life within the Wesleyan Church. The Wesley quotes would fly.

Come to think of it, I've never seen a Calvinist really quote Calvin either.

Well I live in Houston and Houston Baptist University is predominantly Calvinist. One student there was leading a Bible study and he seemed to have a "group of disciples" who were very indoctrinated into the 5 points. It was very philosophical rather than Biblical, what he taught. It was also very dogmatic about the 5 points. This Bible student was actually surprised and caught off guard when I told him about the scripture in 2 Peter that says God desires all men to be saved (also says this in Timothy). I had to show him the scripture because he didn't seem to believe the bible said it.

You see, God desiring all men to be saved didn't fit in too well with his theology that God only wants some to goto Heaven and that he predetermined others to goto hell so that He could be glorified in their destruction. I believe the "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" would also have thrown him off guard.

I found this so unfortunate because the school was only teaching him Scripture that enforced their points rather than studying the whole of Scripture.

 

[Skinski7]

everyone is a heritic if they don't believe exactly how you do i suppose

You won't engage will you? I know it is much easier to throw out snide remarks but does that really add anything to the conservation?

I am trying to reason with people by using common sense and the Bible.

 

[crossnote]

I completely agree. The problem I have seen though is people being fanatical about Calvin. In my own personal experience I have never found people fanatical about Luther, Wesley or anyone else, but I have encountered a ton of Calvinism and I find it odd how desperately people point to Calvin and the 5 points.

I guess you never came across confessional Lutherans, they are there. e.g. www.logia.org

 

[Jda016]

I guess you never came across confessional Lutherans, they are there. e.g. www.logia.org

I never have. I can only relate stories from my own experience.

It is clear though that anyone can start to follow a man rather than Christ.

I would add, I don't hate Calvinists in any way, I just disagree with the end logical conclusions that some points come to. Paul Washer is a Calvinist and I love his preaching and find it to be quite powerful.

 

[Skinski7]

This isn't rocket science...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death (and all die) came from sin ( and as a result all have sinned) which came through Adam.

Adam---->Sin--->Death.

That verse does not say that sin is inherited from Adam. It says that sin came into the world by one man and that death passed onto all men because all have sinned. It doesn't say that sin was passed onto all men because Adam sinned. You are reading that view into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself.

I have mentioned it before that this error of an inherited sin nature and birth depravity stems back to Augustine's use of the Latin Vulgate in application of that verse. The Latin Vulgate states...

Latin Vulgate
Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Rom 5:12 propterea sicut per unum hominem in hunc mundum peccatum intravit et per peccatum mors et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit in quo omnes peccaverunt

Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ

Augustine took "in quo" to mean that all humanity was present in the loins of Adam and therefore sinned with him. Augustine used Romans 5:12 and connected it to Hebrews 7:9-10 as proof of his contention.

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The Latin Vulgate is wrong as it renders the Greek text incorrectly. The proper rendition is...

(KJV) Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(ESV) Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

(NIV) Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

(ISV) Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.

And if that is not enough the Bible is very clear when Paul himself (who wrote Rom 5:12) also wrote...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

There is your "sin -> death."

We are not "born dead" to already having "sinned in Adam." That is erroneous and it is easy to prove erroneous. Not only do we know where this error began but it can be clearly shown how it contradicts the sentiment expressed in the Bible.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin unto death is due to giving oneself over to temptation and choosing to do evil. That is what the Bible teaches. That is what Adam did and that is what everyone who has followed the same example has done also.

We are all individually fully responsible for our own sin and therefore our own condemnation.

 

[Skinski7]

Paul Washer is a Calvinist and I love his preaching and find it to be quite powerful.

Paul Washer is a deadly deceiver. He will never preach that we have to crucify the flesh with its passions and desires and he will never teach that faith purifies the heart.

His message consists of getting people to recognise how filthy and depraved they actually are and then to cry out to God to change them. If they happen to be one of the elect then God will do a work in them and if they see change then they can be assured that they are saved. If they are not sinning less then they have no assurance they are saved.

He is preaching the same false abstract provisional salvation message premised on "sin you will and sin you must" and therefore preaches "ye can sin and not surely die." He only appends it with the notion that you will "sin less than before." Paul Washer's message is clearly aimed at those who see the blatant lukewarmness in the church system, his is a very subtle deception.

All Satan has to do to ensure the condemnation of someone is convince them that they can continue to disobey God and not surely die. It took one act of willful rebellion to God to kill Adam and Eve spiritually. This is the law of sin and death, you sin you die. It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death because it brings with it a state of being redeemed from all iniquity and being made pure where we no longer choose evil over good.

 

[crossnote]

That verse does not say that sin is inherited from Adam. It says that sin came into the world by one man and that death passed onto all men because all have sinned. It doesn't say that sin was passed onto all men because Adam sinned. You are reading that view into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself.

I have mentioned it before that this error of an inherited sin nature and birth depravity stems back to Augustine's use of the Latin Vulgate in application of that verse. The Latin Vulgate states...


Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ

Augustine took "in quo" to mean that all humanity was present in the loins of Adam and therefore sinned with him. Augustine used Romans 5:12 and connected it to Hebrews 7:9-10 as proof of his contention.

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The Latin Vulgate is wrong as it renders the Greek text incorrectly. The proper rendition is...




And if that is not enough the Bible is very clear when Paul himself (who wrote Rom 5:12) also wrote...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

There is your "sin -> death."

We are not "born dead" to already having "sinned in Adam." That is erroneous and it is easy to prove erroneous. Not only do we know where this error began but it can be clearly shown how it contradicts the sentiment expressed in the Bible.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin unto death is due to giving oneself over to temptation and choosing to do evil. That is what the Bible teaches. That is what Adam did and that is what everyone who has followed the same example has done also.

We are all individually fully responsible for our own sin and therefore our own condemnation.

sorry i am not a Pelagianist. you had to go through all types of contortions and Scripture twisting to mangle the clear meaning of that verse.

 

[Jda016]

Paul Washer

His message consists of getting people to recognise how filthy and depraved they actually are and then to cry out to God to change them.

I actually agree with this. What do we need saving from if we don't realize that we are sinners?

I have cried out many times to God to change my thoughts and behaviors. But I also try and choose to do that which is right with the abilities God has given me. I can choose to crucify the flesh, but I ask God for his help and grace to do it.