Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[Hizikyah]

According to Messiah, He fulfilled the Law.

Nothing has passed from the Law?

One word: Sacrifices.

Here's two more: Levitical Priesthood.

-JGIG

Out with animal Sacrifices in with Messiah, out with Levites in with Messiah, does that abolish Laws or placeholders?

So how did you accept the true Passover Lamb if that Law was abolished 2,000 years ago?

And how is Messiah High Priest carrying out Intercessor duties if that Law is also abolished?

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[RedTent]

There are people reading these threads, some are open to reading scripture. No one changes his view unless they are truly seeking truth and truth is presented. But when we stay absolutely true to scripture, when we are humble before the Lord and only answer in line with scripture, at least truth is being presented.

 

[danschance]

My posts are always about scripture, your posts are fighting.

You are saying (although you will deny it) that HRM is not about balance. A plain false accusation. Your posts are filled with law talk, and you say it is from Moses we get the law you object to. Moses is in the OT. Now you deny it.

So, you object to my defending the HRM, now you say you aren't objecting to it. May I say that you now approve of their study of the OT? Going deeply into all parts of scripture, and seeing the OT as the roots of the new so it digs deeper into the meaning of the new is what the movement is. You have said you object to this. Now you don't? \

Or are you objecting to some wild untrue accusations against them?

Lie number 1&2 - "My posts are always about scripture, your posts are fighting. "
Your posts almost never list any scriptures and my posts are not about fighting but the truth.

Lie number 3 - "You are saying (although you will deny it) that HRM is not about balance."
I believe the HRM is far out of balance. They focus on a covenant that was replaced by a better one. It focuses on getting in touch with Judaism when God cut it off by destroying the temple. It focuses on law when the NT focuses on Grace.

Lie number 4 - "Your posts are filled with law talk, and you say it is from Moses we get the law you object to."
My posts are not law talk. They are filled with reasons to reject the HRM as a cult and/or false movement not of God.

Lie number 5 - "So, you object to my defending the HRM, now you say you aren't objecting to it."

I have never objected to you defending your beliefs, instead, I object to your blatant distortions and half truths which you post very frequently.

Truth! Number 1 - "May I say that you now approve of their study of the OT?
Yes, I approve of ALL of the bible, every bit of it. I have stated this many times."

Hmmm - "Going deeply into all parts of scripture, and seeing the OT as the roots of the new so it digs deeper into the meaning of the new is what the movement is. You have said you object to this. Now you don't?"

I believe the old testament offers some (not much) insight into the NT. Instead I get more insight from the NT as it details much better the promises of the Christ and the OT is literally all about Jesus Christ (John 5:39). The OT is my opinion is a back drop to the NT. The value of the OT is learning about God's character but the NT is of greater value in that it reveals who Jesus is and reveals what the new covenant of grace is.

 

[JGIG]

Check the greek.

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of

>>> God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, <<<

have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the >>> end G5056 – telos <<< of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
​

Christ as the end of the Law:

G5056 – telos
1) end
​

a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
​

1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal​

c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose ​

2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
​

End, in this case, simply means end.

​

End of the Law for those in Christ.

A simple translation for the linguist guys.

But the HRM has to take meaning ’1d’ to try to force a meaning into the text. Even then, their attempt falls short, as the
Law points to Christ:

>>>>>>>>>> . . . He . . . Christ . . . <<<<<<<<
​

. . . is the end (the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose) of the Law, not the Law is the end of Christ!

The Law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the Law!
For those in Christ, the Law is abolished, and those in Christ
are released from the Law, having died to it!
(Rom. 10:4, Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2, Col. 2)
​

-JGIG

​

 

[JGIG]

There is a large gap between keeping the Law to be justified and keeping it because it is written on ones heart.

If it truly written on ones heart they do not find excuses to disobey or ignore certain Laws they dont like.

And again if the spirit dont match the text, its not Yahweh's Spirit.

Do you read the text to know what Messiah wants from you?

Again, you define God's Law after the Cross as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

The commandments/Law/Torah given after the Cross is "Believe on the One He has sent and love one another."

Simple.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

1 Yahchanan 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Wonder why he would say, "let no man deceive you?"

Filthy rags, yes, I agree, no matter what one does, this is true, yet do I give up, or do I walk in the light, on the narrow path?

One every fruit of the Spirit is commanded.promoted in Yahweh's Law

that is why there is no Law against these things...

Evey fruit of the flesh is against/sin according to Yahweh's Law...

I understand it is the default position for people to say, oh you keep the Law by your own will.

Foolishness, how can this claim be made by someone who does not know you?

Legalist.... do you promote illegalisim?

Are these men legalists?

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.​

If you are in Christ, are you righteous or unrighteous?

What does the Word say?

Check out 2 Cor. 5:16-21. Romans 5. Hebrews 10.

-JGIG

 

[Hizikyah]

Again, you define God's Law after the Cross as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

The commandments/Law/Torah given after the Cross is "Believe on the One He has sent and love one another."

Simple.

-JGIG

Are we to believe? Yes of course, with faith all is worthless

Messiah and Shaul disagree.

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Shaul clearly understands what the Messiah means and explains it here:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

All as in even the ones he didn't list...

Try breaking Leviticus 19:17 and still be loving your neighbor according to Messiah.

And try breaking the 4th Commandment and still be loving Yahweh.

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

you oversimplify and turn truth in the doctrine spoken of in

Yahdah (Jude) 1:4, "4 For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

 

[Hizikyah]

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of

>>> God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, <<<

have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the >>> end G5056 – telos <<< of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
​

Christ as the end of the Law:
G5056 – telos

1) end
​

a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
​

1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal​

c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose ​

2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
​

End, in this case, simply means end.
End of the Law for those in Christ.
​

A simple translation for the linguist guys.

But the HRM has to take meaning ’1d’ to try to force a meaning into the text. Even then, their attempt falls short, as the
Law points to Christ:

>>>>>>>>>> . . . He . . . Christ . . . <<<<<<<<
​

. . . is the end (the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose) of the Law, not the Law is the end of Christ!

The Law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the Law!
For those in Christ, the Law is abolished, and those in Christ
are released from the Law, having died to it!
(Rom. 10:4, Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2, Col. 2)
​

-JGIG

Didnt we go over this yesterday?

If telos means the end of the Law there it means the end of the Lord here:

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

and the end of faith here:

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Nope, you have been fooled by faulty translation.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.


Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

 

[Hizikyah]

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.​

If you are in Christ, are you righteous or unrighteous?

What does the Word say?

Check out 2 Cor. 5:16-21. Romans 5. Hebrews 10.

-JGIG

To know if we are in Messiah or not one would have to consult all the Scriptures concerning that matter, not just the one that says, "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

...

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-6, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked."

 

[JGIG]

How has any talk of obedience top Yahweh's Law/Instructions/Torah become something that is spoken evil of?

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Right. The Greek used there is entole, not nomos.

Nomos is consistently used when referring to the Laws given to Israel at Sinai; entole is consistently used when referring to commandments that are not specifically Mosaic Covenant Law.


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

You continue to err in defining commandments every time you see them in Scripture as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

-JGIG

 

[phil112]

....................................
Name something else other than the cross that sets men free...........

..........

 

[Hizikyah]

Right. The Greek used there is entole, not nomos.

Nomos is consistently used when referring to the Laws given to Israel at Sinai; entole is consistently used when referring to commandments that are not specifically Mosaic Covenant Law.


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

You continue to err in defining commandments every time you see them in Scripture as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

-JGIG

So nomos is Yahweh's Law? (given by Mosheh)

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Too bad there are so many anti-nomos out there...

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:—iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #458.
α᾿νομι´α anomia; from 459; lawlessness:— lawless deed, lawless deeds, lawlessness


FROM:

#0459 ἄνομος anomos {an'-om-os} from G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; TDNT - 4:1086,646; adj

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
1a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0001 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:— without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) #459.
α῎νομος anomos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 3551; lawless, without law:— godless men, lawless, lawless one, transgressors, without the law, without law, without law.

 

[Hizikyah]

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

 

[RedTent]

If you are in Christ, are you righteous or unrighteous?
What does the Word say?
Check out 2 Cor. 5:16-21. Romans 5. Hebrews 10.
-JGIG

All of you law harping people, if you are in Christ do you obey the law or don't you? Can you be in Christ as you are sinning?

 

[RedTent]

,,,,,,,,Again, you define God's Law after the Cross as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.
The commandments/Law/Torah given after the Cross is "Believe on the One He has sent and love one another." Simple........

-JGIG

If this is the only word of instruction to us, do you advocate we throw out all other scripture containing suggestions for our living?

 

[danschance]

Too bad there are so many anti-nomos out there...

Who is anti law? This is just another tidal wave in a teacup. Not me or any brother on this site. We all try to do God's will. We are commanded to LOVE our neighbors and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[Hizikyah]

Who is anti law? This is just another tidal wave in a teacup. Not me or any brother on this site. We all try to do God's will. We are commanded to LOVE our neighbors and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Is that the same love contained and explained in the Law of Yahweh or is it different?

the Law of Yahweh was given through Mosheh see post 1792 & 1793.

 

[RedTent]

Who is anti law? This is just another tidal wave in a teacup. Not me or any brother on this site. We all try to do God's will. We are commanded to LOVE our neighbors and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Are you now saying that Christ says His law does not change law, that he just added to it? That doesn't sound at ALL like your former posts.

 

[phil112]

Originally Posted by danschance

Who is anti law? This is just another tidal wave in a teacup. Not me or any brother on this site. We all try to do God's will. We are commanded to LOVE our neighbors and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Are you now saying that Christ says His law does not change law, that he just added to it? That doesn't sound at ALL like your former posts.

I completely understand why you have so much trouble with scripture. You get the strangest things out of a simple reply.

 

[JGIG]

So explain why I should not hear and obey what the Messiah is saying here:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

So explain why I should not hear and obey what the Messiah is saying here:

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Here's the thing:

You're not obeying. You're like the rich young ruler who said, "All these things I have obeyed . . . " and Jesus pointed out his idolatry - that of riches.

That is what the Law does - it points out that you lack - and you always will lack. The Law condemns, but the Spirit gives Life.

You may be obeying Feasts, days, and dietary laws (and maybe you grow a beard or sit niddah, depending on your gender), but you are not obeying the Law as God gave it.

-JGIG