Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[RedTent]

You were the one who accused me of spending too much time in the NT, as if that is a bad thing. This statement "True professors of ancient Hebrew do not even read the OT without relating it to the new. " is true only if you know all "true professors" of the HRM. In fact the HRM is extremely varied. So I doubt you are telling the truth. Instead I think you believe this may be true but it is not.

then you are reading me wrong, and lets get this straightened out right at this moment. I do think, from your posts, that you are often discrediting the Old Testament for learning. HOWEVER lets get this straight. I believe in balance, with Christ first and after that simply reading scripture, all of it. Too much time in the new testament is a bad thing and too much time, if you don't take that as the roots of Christ, especially, is also a bad thing. I do not live in your house, watching your every move.

You call me a liar. I object. Calling people liars is not of God. I have looked into the movement. It is about studying the roots of Christ. I believe demons are against that, for it makes Christ more real. Anything demons can do to discredit Christ they will do, and as you see by this long posting, it is to discredit Christ. It is using Christ shown in the Old Testament to do it.

I also believe that God is in control of the world, and what has happened since after 1940 has been through the Lord. Finding information about our roots is part of that, as many other things are. Demons are fighting every bit of it.

 

[RedTent]

Obviously, for legalists and Judaizers, hebrew roots is their seeming justification for their work at the law.

However, the fact remains that none of them will become perfect by their work at the law.

Nor will they become perfect by attempting to add their works at the law to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is foolishness.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Grandpa, get off it! You keep on and on about that they won't become perfect through works. Being that no one since the beginning of time has ever become perfect through works, I doubt that God is going to start allowing someone to start.

Maybe you are a unique person in the world who considers doing that, as you keep talking about it? No person who believes in studying scripture or who gives their life to Christ is joining you in this consideration, CERTAINLY not the HRM, for it is a movement of listening to all scripture.

 

[danschance]

then you are reading me wrong, and lets get this straightened out right at this moment. I do think, from your posts, that you are often discrediting the Old Testament for learning. HOWEVER lets get this straight. I believe in balance, with Christ first and after that simply reading scripture, all of it. Too much time in the new testament is a bad thing and too much time, if you don't take that as the roots of Christ, especially, is also a bad thing. I do not live in your house, watching your every move.

You call me a liar. I object. Calling people liars is not of God. I have looked into the movement. It is about studying the roots of Christ. I believe demons are against that, for it makes Christ more real. Anything demons can do to discredit Christ they will do, and as you see by this long posting, it is to discredit Christ. It is using Christ shown in the Old Testament to do it.

I also believe that God is in control of the world, and what has happened since after 1940 has been through the Lord. Finding information about our roots is part of that, as many other things are. Demons are fighting every bit of it.

I have never called you a liar. I said you are lying and it is true. You create "straw men" facts so you can easily knock them down. I have pointed out your half truths and distortions many times and again, I ask that you tell the truth.

Again, there is nothing wrong with studying our roots. I have never said that is wrong. What is wrong is applying what you have found to your life in a way that God does not approve of.

 

[JGIG]

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."


Love.... how do we love? Does the Spirit teach a different love that the Scripture? Or was all Scripture guided by the Spirit?

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might(Deut 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself(Lev 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

Next we have a direct connection to rejection of the Law of Yahweh and people not having love.


Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

LOVE...what we call love or what Yahweh calls love?

LOVE...what the world calls love or what Yahweh calls love

LOVE...

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." (from Jn. 15)​

Law doesn't teach you that; the Holy Spirit does.

Another thing that's come to me as I've read your posts exalting the Law:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (from Jn. 16)​

I don't see you glorifying Christ and His Work; only the Law. That's not the Holy Spirit doing that through you. Just sayin'.

-JGIG

 

[RedTent]

I have never called you a liar. I said you are lying and it is true. You create "straw men" facts so you can easily knock them down. I have pointed out your half truths and distortions many times and again, I ask that you tell the truth.

Again, there is nothing wrong with studying our roots. I have never said that is wrong. What is wrong is applying what you have found to your life in a way that God does not approve of.

After I check everything I say with scripture and can back up everything with scripture, and I check everything you say with scripture and I find that you distort scripture often or just plain say something has been over. I only try to correct your statements of what God is like that I absolutely know is not true. I ask you to tell the truth, and try my best to show truth.

You think I am wrong and I feel that your wrongness is a damage to the church and want so much for God to prevail.

Perhaps it would be best that I not say what God says, but that doesn't seem right to me, either.

Now you are saying there is nothing wrong with studying our roots!! That is of God. It is an advance. Perhaps God will let you see there is nothing at all wrong with anything scripture says, and let you know exactly and precisely what he changed and replaced with His resurrection.

 

[RedTent]

.................
I don't see you glorifying Christ and His Work; only the Law. That's not the Holy Spirit doing that through you. Just sayin'. -JGIG

We KNOW you don't see anything but the law, that is what we are trying to get across to you. Law (instructions is a better word) is important after salvation, but your obsession with it is blinding you to everything else.

 

[danschance]

Readers note the Root Word Fallacy here. Hizikya has taken the actual word that appears in a text, anomia G458, which refers to general law not specific to Mosaic Law and replaced it with anomos G459, which is specific to Mosaic Law.

Again, this is to support his assertion that every time 'law' or 'commandment' is used in Scripture, it is defined as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai. That is simply not reality. When the Scriptures refer to 'iniquity', again, Hizikya attempts to make that transgression against specific Law - those laws given to Israel at Sinai. Again, not the case.

-JGIG

Yes, I have seen many examples of this. They search thru the bible for the word "LAW" and always assume it refers to the Mosaic law. This is wrong and intelectually dishonest. Even worse is they search thru various translations to see which one inserts the word law.

Many times I have seen HRMerd post:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1John 3:4

The HRM peeps love this verse but there is a slight mistranslated here. The KJB translators reworded this to make it seem it is talking about the law. Yet many modern translations use the word lawless, not law because in the greek this comes from Strong's 458, "ANOMIA" or lawlessness.

Here is the NASB for the same verse:

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

So it is dishonest to only quote the KJV as it is inaccurate on this verse.

 

[Kerry]

Well that's all good, but what I am trying to get across to you. Is that keeping law will send you to hell. Lord we have danced for you and sang for you, depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. You cannot know Jesus from keeping law. Ironically you can't even come close to keeping law unless you know Jesus. Because, you must have your faith in the work of the cross in order for the Holy Spirit to work in your life. With out the Holy Spirit working in us we are Satan bait. Proven by all the OT saints.

 

[RedTent]

Yes, I have seen many examples of this. They search thru the bible for the word "LAW" and always assume it refers to the Mosaic law. This is wrong and intelectually dishonest. Even worse is they search thru various translations to see which one inserts the word law.

Many times I have seen HRMerd post:

The HRM peeps love this verse but there is a slight mistranslated here. The KJB translators reworded this to make it seem it is talking about the law. Yet many modern translations use the word lawless, not law because in the greek this comes from Strong's 458, "ANOMIA" or lawlessness.

Here is the NASB for the same verse:

So it is dishonest to only quote the KJV as it is inaccurate on this verse.

Here again the HRM is about learning the roots of Christ, and you are talking about law. And all of the "they". Who, exactly are these "theys" that represent an entire movement?

Some years ago when I began hearing about this "law" that was such a no no, I spent several months reading all the verses in the bible my concordance showed me concerning law. I wanted to be sure I was understanding all the bible said about it. Would that qualify me as a "they"?

 

[Kerry]

Here again the HRM is about learning the roots of Christ, and you are talking about law. And all of the "they". Who, exactly are these "theys" that represent an entire movement?

Some years ago when I began hearing about this "law" that was such a no no, I spent several months reading all the verses in the bible my concordance showed me concerning law. I wanted to be sure I was understanding all the bible said about it. Would that qualify me as a "they"?

The early Church had no need of studying law or Jewish tradition as they were focused on understanding the cross. which is revealed to us and to Himself by the writer Paul.

 

[RedTent]

The early Church had no need of studying law or Jewish tradition as they were focused on understanding the cross. which is revealed to us and to Himself by the writer Paul.

I wish you would get your mind off being stuck with studying law instead of scripture! But to the early church. The thousands of Jews who believed in Jesus, as Acts tells us, were steeped in Torah. In fact, when Paul was accused of not teaching Torah, it was Torah observant Christians who did that. The gentile Christians hadn't been taught Torah at all, but they were told to go to synagogue so they could learn scripture. There was no NT to learn at that time, the only scripture Paul told them to learn was the OT.

Paul had gotten permission to teach gentiles only gospel and about God, when before to join the worship of God meant they had to become Jews along with circumcision and the works. You know how Paul taught you didn't have to be a Jew, and God said Jews and gentiles who believed were equal. But they had to learn scripture, and that was the Torah.

 

[danschance]

The early Church had no need of studying law or Jewish tradition as they were focused on understanding the cross. which is revealed to us and to Himself by the writer Paul.

Why go backwards? Go forward! Lets focus on the prize. Kerry has said it very well. The NT church is focused on winning souls for Christ and spreading the good news. Why spend years studying what Jews do and spend that same time on what Christ did and wants you to do.

 

[Linda70]

For more insight into the Hebrew Roots Cult Movement:

The Hebrew Roots Cult Movement - Part 1
Origins and Beliefs

The Hebrew Roots Cult Movement - Part 2
Hatred for Christians and the Apostle Paul

Conclusion

The roots of Christianity grow deep in Jewish culture, and it is highly recommended that all Christians learn about the Jewish feast days, holy days and other customs. They will only deepen our appreciation and understanding of our common ancestry that we have, Gentiles together with Jews. But to suggest that any Gentile believer who follows Jesus must be placed under Old Testament law is nothing but bondage, and it's a bondage that the Bible speaks against not only in the verses quoted here, but in many other places as well. Regarding the freedom we have in Christ, let me leave you with this verse from the Master himself:

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36
**************************
I was involved, but did not participate as a member, in the HRM back in the 80s and 90s. What I saw was indeed bondage to the Torah, and they stressed "identity" with Hebrew Roots and not with Christ. The Messianic/Hebrew Roots "assemblies" were mainly composed of Gentiles. The Messianic congregation where I attended was about 85% Gentile...and only 15% Jewish. I really felt sorry for those Gentiles who "tried" so hard to be Jews. They were known as "wannabe" Jews.

 

[danschance]

For more insight into the Hebrew Roots Cult Movement:

The Hebrew Roots Cult Movement - Part 1
Origins and Beliefs

The Hebrew Roots Cult Movement - Part 2
Hatred for Christians and the Apostle Paul

Conclusion

The roots of Christianity grow deep in Jewish culture, and it is highly recommended that all Christians learn about the Jewish feast days, holy days and other customs. They will only deepen our appreciation and understanding of our common ancestry that we have, Gentiles together with Jews. But to suggest that any Gentile believer who follows Jesus must be placed under Old Testament law is nothing but bondage, and it's a bondage that the Bible speaks against not only in the verses quoted here, but in many other places as well. Regarding the freedom we have in Christ, let me leave you with this verse from the Master himself:

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36
**************************
I was involved, but did not participate as a member, in the HRM back in the 80s and 90s. What I saw was indeed bondage to the Torah, and they stressed "identity" with Hebrew Roots and not with Christ. The Messianic/Hebrew Roots "assemblies" were mainly composed of Gentiles. The Messianic congregation where I attended was about 85% Gentile...and only 15% Jewish. I really felt sorry for those Gentiles who "tried" so hard to be Jews. They were known as "wannabe" Jews.

Awesome good. Thank you.

 

[Karraster]

I daresay we could pick apart any religion, and it seems there is not many organized religions not cannibalistic, it's why I don't belong to any organized religion. Bashing HRM is not my job anymore than to criticize any other religion. By the time the Last Day arrives I would imagine true believers will have kept their faith, and possibly gone underground to aid others fleeing from persecution. As that day draws near more and more we believers will become more distinctly separated from the world while those false disciples will help lead the charge, handing over even brothers sisters fathers and mothers, to protect their own hides for a while longer. Not speculating, it's prophesied in the Word.

Wanting to know Messiah more intimately was what caused me to study Hebrew language, culture, and history, to have a better understanding of His Words. What I found, is that to understand New T you simply must study the Old T. There was no New Testament during Messiah's day, and the scripture He studied was the Old. There are many many quotes and references to the Old Testament by the New Testament writers. Here is a link that lists some of them.

Study Resources :: Parallel Passages in New Testament Quoted from Old Testament :: Part I

Sure I thank Father in heaven for Messiah and His sacrifice, every day. I'm so grateful in fact, I want to know Him. I want to know Him as I am known by Him. Every relationship I have ever had was so much more satisfying when both parties were interested.

 

[RedTent]

" I was involved, but did not participate as a member, in the HRM back in the 80s and 90s. What I saw was indeed bondage to the Torah, and they stressed "identity" with Hebrew Roots and not with Christ. The Messianic/Hebrew Roots "assemblies" were mainly composed of Gentiles. The Messianic congregation where I attended was about 85% Gentile...and only 15% Jewish. I really felt sorry for those Gentiles who "tried" so hard to be Jews. They were known as "wannabe" Jews.

You saw only bondage as you studied OT. Others see liberation through Christ. You see learning all about the spiritual meaning of what God teaches as Jewish, others see it as of God. You have limited sight, Linda. You have not been able to give yourself to Christ in a thorough enough way to take in leaning of the roots. Perhaps as you grow in Christ it will come clear. It is true that learning of this way takes a deep faith in Christ. But you should not condemn a whole movement because you could not comprehend it.

 

[Linda70]

You saw only bondage as you studied OT. Others see liberation through Christ. You see learning all about the spiritual meaning of what God teaches as Jewish, others see it as of God. You have limited sight, Linda. You have not been able to give yourself to Christ in a thorough enough way to take in leaning of the roots. Perhaps as you grow in Christ it will come clear. It is true that learning of this way takes a deep faith in Christ. But you should not condemn a whole movement because you could not comprehend it.

No, my sight isn't limited...and it wasn't limited at that time. I was involved with these people for over 10 years. I have been saved for 40 years and during those 10 years in the HRM/Messianic movement I did not grow because Christ was not taught...it was Torah. I was told that unless I knew my Hebrew Roots, I could not comprehend the Scriptures. Tell me, RedTent, why do you "defend" a movement that binds one to the Torah...a movement where some do not even believe that Jesus Christ is deity and where some don't believe in the tri-unity of the Godhead.

RedTent, you have not been where I've been, so please cease pointing your judgmental finger at me and anybody else who has the spiritual discernment to see that the HRM is a cult ....a very dangerous cult with many schisms. First take the beam out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck out of anyone else's eye.

 

[danschance]

No, my sight isn't limited...and it wasn't limited at that time. I was involved with these people for over 10 years. I have been saved for 40 years and during those 10 years in the HRM/Messianic movement I did not grow because Christ was not taught...it was Torah. I was told that unless I knew my Hebrew Roots, I could not comprehend the Scriptures. Tell me, RedTent, why do you "defend" a movement that binds one to the Torah...a movement where some do not even believe that Jesus Christ is deity and where some don't believe in the tri-unity of the Godhead.

RedTent, you have not been where I've been, so please cease pointing your judgmental finger at me and anybody else who has the spiritual discernment to see that the HRM is a cult ....a very dangerous cult with many schisms. First take the beam out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck out of anyone else's eye.

Wow, you have a story to tell. Thank you for sharing it. You can even write it down as a blog here. I agree with everything you have said. The HRM should be avoided at all costs.

 

[danschance]

I was involved, but did not participate as a member, in the HRM back in the 80s and 90s. What I saw was indeed bondage to the Torah, and they stressed "identity" with Hebrew Roots and not with Christ. The Messianic/Hebrew Roots "assemblies" were mainly composed of Gentiles. The Messianic congregation where I attended was about 85% Gentile...and only 15% Jewish. I really felt sorry for those Gentiles who "tried" so hard to be Jews. They were known as "wannabe" Jews.

I have seen some become so enamored of the HRM that they became more Jew than Christian. I call them "Jew-Christian". Calling them "wanabe Jews" is a bit insulting but very accurate. A friend met a man who invited her to a messianic church. She asked me what I thought, so I looked at the church website.

I was a gasp as it was filled with wanna be Jews, from the pastor on down. They even modeled their worship on David with dancing in the church. Their website was filled with Jewish symbols and not a single cross. The pastor even called himself a Rabbi and wore a scull cap. Another photo showed men praying while wearing a tallit. Clearly this was far from just studding the OT, they literally adopted it! I told my frind to not step foot in the door.

 

[RedTent]

Wow, you have a story to tell. Thank you for sharing it. You can even write it down as a blog here. I agree with everything you have said. The HRM should be avoided at all costs.

You can all talk on and on about how God as explained in the Torah must be eliminated from our world, that Christ was not part of creation, that the 4,000 years of history has no impact on us, but I cannot believe what you say is true. I do not believe that it is of God that you say to avoid the HRM who spreads knowledge of God as the Father of Christ. 78% of scripture is about Christ before He lived as a man, why would God give us that much to learn of Christ, and say not to listen? Of the NT 12% is quotations from the OT. Yet you tell me that we must know all of God based on this 10% of scripture.

I cannot believe that your telling me that you know God and any of the idea of knowing Christ through the roots, too, is wrong.

We will have to wait until we meet our Lord at our death to find out if you are right and I am wrong. It is quite a gamble.