Does water baptism save us

[peacefulbeliever]

1 Pet 3:21 English > "...baptism doth also now save us...."
1 Pet 3:21 Greek > "...baptisma sōzō kai nyn sōzō hēmas..."

NO verse in Acts 10 or 11 or anywhere else say one has to first be saved before he can be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 it is water baptism that remits sins, not baptism with the Holy Ghost, so theywere lost until they obeyed the command to be water baptized.

Again, from Acts 11, Peter rehearsed BY ORDER the events that happened and the HS fell upon them as Peter BEGAN to speak, so Peter had not told them the words whereby they would be saved when the HS fell upon them.

The point being, in Acts 10 was that they were born again of the Spirit, i.e. saved before they were water baptized. How did Peter know that and how do I know that? "because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy Spirit For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God."

Peter preached the gospel, the words they heard - "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom thy slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; . . . " The Gentiles believed what they heard (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) and the holy Spirit fell on all them which heard - they were saved, born again of the Spirit at that moment. So in all actuality - the water was not needed for salvation (they were already saved) except for the symbolic nature of the act - dying with Christ and being raised with Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

some here are reading John 3:5 and ignoring John 3:6...

Jn 3:6 does not change Jn 3:5, 1 Cor 12:13, Titus 3:5 or Eph 5:26.

 

[SeaBass]

ahem.



it also clearly explains what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5.

which has nothing​ to do with ritual water baptism.

If WATER has nothing to do with the new birth, then why in the world would Jesus say EXCEPT/MUST a man be born of WATER?? Why mention WATER at all?

 

[SeaBass]

1. Abraham was saved the moment he had faith. Before he did the work.
2. God does not need water to wash you, He washes you the moment you have faith.

1) so if in Gen 12 Abraham had not obeyed God in doing the work of leaving his land, house kinsmen unto a land God would show him, he was saved in his SIN/DISOBEDIENCE/UNRIGHTEOUSNESS anyway?

2) God, for His own reasons and purposes, chose water baptism as the point to when He washes away sins. Under the OT, why did God require animal sacrifices to atone for sins and not faith only?

 

[Linda70]

Things Hard to be Understood
Acts 22:16

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” – Acts 22:16

Many attempt to use this passage to prove baptismal regeneration or the necessity of baptism for salvation, but it proves no such thing. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that it is faith that saves, and baptism is the symbol and evidence of one’s faith. Acts 22:16, standing alone, could mean either that baptism washes away sins, or it could mean that calling on the name of the Lord washes away sins. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that the true meaning is the latter. In Acts 9:17 we see that Paul was a “brother” in Christ before he was baptized. One must be saved and adopted into God’s family to be a brother in Christ. Romans 10:13 says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is absolutely no mention of baptism in Romans 10. Those who repent and trust the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and baptism signifies this spiritual reality.

When the Philippian jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul did not reply that he needed to believe and be baptized. He replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house” (Acts 16:30-31). After the jailer believed on Christ, he was baptized that same night, but it was only the product of his salvation. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized (Acts 10:43-48), and the Holy Spirit is the mark and seal of sonship and salvation (Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:11-12). If baptism were a part of salvation, the Apostle Paul would not have said, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). Baptism is not part of the Gospel that Paul preached. Further, consider 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. In this passage Paul declared the Gospel “in a nutshell,” and there is no mention of baptism. Paul's Gospel message was also summarized in Acts 20:21 --—”repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, there is no word about baptism. Baptism is important, but it follows salvation and is not a part of the Gospel. When Paul explained how to be saved in Romans chapter 10, he again said nothing about baptism:

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-13).
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IF water baptism is required for one to get saved, then why did Jesus Christ die on the cross of Calvary and shed His precious blood? If a person is unregenerate (unsaved) when he/she gets water baptized, that unregenerate (unsaved) person will come out of the water an unregenerate (unsaved) "wet" person.

 

[SeaBass]

So are you saying that if a person truly repents, and gives his heart to Jesus, God will not forgive him and wipe his slate clean until he is baptized?

Yes, for God has chosen water baptism as the point where He does the work in cutting away the body of sin, Col 2:12-14.

Many churches don't even baptize people unless they do baptism classes to ensure they know what they are doing and why, because too many people these days rush into baptism without even knowing what it means, or who God is for that matter. If a man takes time to do a few classes prior to baptism, but gives his life to the Lord before the classes, will the salvation of God be postponed till this man is baptized?

There is no churchES just one body, Eph 4:5.

One does need to first be taught (no faith without hearing, Rom 10:17) so he can understand the purpose for being baptized. One cannot be baptized if he does not know what it is about just as one cannot believe is he has no idea what to believe in.


Acts 2:38 baptism is for remission of sins.


There, you know what the purpose of being baptized is for and do not need a series of classes.

When one is taught "the faith", that includes teaching baptism so when/if believes what he is taught, then he ALREADY understands baptism and should be baptized right then, no reason to wait.

Acts 8, Phillip taught "Jesus" to the eunuch which included teaching Jesus's baptism of the great commission.

 

[SeaBass]

"Both Christ and Nicodemus understood the impossibility of one being physically born a second time" - But being born again does not involve a physical birth - being born again is by the Spirit - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This new birth does not consist of both water and spirit - the new birth is totally spirit and I posted earlier that if we put the water and Spirit together, it is a figure of speech meaning "spiritual water" which would be the "living water" Jesus spoke about at the well and in John 7:38,39 which is the holy Spirit.

For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized in holy Spirit - that is the new birth, that is being born again.

You post " the new birth is totally spirit..."

Jn 3:5 says born of water and born of the spirit. People are tending to ignore the "born of water" part and look only at the "born of spirit" part. So this new birth consists of both elements water and spirit.


Mt 3:11 is not promising anyone today baptism with the Holy Spirit. The pronoun "you" occurs twice in this verse and neither "you" applies to anyone today, though people try and make the second "you" apply to themselves.

 

[SeaBass]

The more I read the more I see people just don't understand why some of us value baptism like we do. No matter what is said it is misconstrued. I don't think this is done intentionally, but I say one thing and it is interpreted into something else. Oy.

When one approaches the bible with a preconceived mindset, [as faith only], then he does not look to explain the reason/purposes of baptism and God making baptism the point where He saves men, but he looks to try to explain it out of the bible. The preconceived idea (faith only) comes before everything in the bible and the bible has to be made to fit around that preconceived idea.
I do not know why God chose water baptism as the point He saves, nor will I question God on why He did, I just accept it with faith. It could be Naaman wondered and did not understand why God required him to dip in the Jordan river 7 times, or Israel did not understand why they had to march around Jericho's walls and do certain things, the point being, don't question why God wants it done, just do it in faith. God has reasons for the things He does and just because I may not understand them gives me no right to disobey God.

 

[SeaBass]

1. The flesh refers to water.
2. 1 cor 12 does not refer to wayer. It says who baptised us, For BY ONE SPIRIT we were baptized INTO ONE BODY.

it is Done by the Holy Spirit. Baptizing us INTO CHRIST.

No water involved.

Water refers to water.


Jn 3:5-------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cr12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost>>>>>>washing of reg.>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26----------the WOrd+++++wshing of water>>>>>>cleansed

All four verses speak of the new birth. Where is the flesh, the physical birth in each one?


1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul, not the Holy Spirit, baptized some of the Corinthians and Paul water baptized them, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, the baptism of the great commissions that disciples as Paul are to teach and baptize with.

 

[saved1975]

The $68,000 question:

Where and when does Christ's blood wash away sins??????????


Rev 1:5 John said Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood

Jn 19:34 Christ shed His blood in His death.

Rom 6:3-5 it is baptism that puts one into Christ's death where His blood was shed, wo baptism gives one access to that shed blood.

No "faith only" found in any of this.

The blood of Jesus washes sins away the moment one is born again.
Then and then only can one be baptized in water.

 

[SeaBass]

The point being, in Acts 10 was that they were born again of the Spirit, i.e. saved before they were water baptized. How did Peter know that and how do I know that? "because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy Spirit For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God."

Peter preached the gospel, the words they heard - "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom thy slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; . . . " The Gentiles believed what they heard (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) and the holy Spirit fell on all them which heard - they were saved, born again of the Spirit at that moment. So in all actuality - the water was not needed for salvation (they were already saved) except for the symbolic nature of the act - dying with Christ and being raised with Christ.

Water baptism is where sins are remitted, Acts 2:38, so how could they be saved BEFORE their sins were remitted?

Acts 10:44 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

"While" could mean at the beginning, in the middle or near the end of his speaking.

But Acts 11 tells us what "while' means > The Holy Ghost fell on them as Peter began to speak, not during or near the end. In Acts 10:44, Peter did not tell people what to believe or to believe until near the very end of his sermon. And Peter did not tell them what they ought to do, verse 6, how to work righteousness and be accepted with God, v35 until he commanded them to be water baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

The blood of Jesus washes sins away the moment one is born again.
Then and then only can one be baptized in water.

Born again = water baptism. Jesus did say "born of water" in Jn 3:5. He did not just say "born of the spirit" in Jn 3:5.

 

[notuptome]

The blood of Christ is sprinkled on the holy altar of God in heaven. There the blood atones for our sins. the High Priest sprinkled the blood of animals on the altar in the temple. Christ made a more perfect offering of His own blood.

No water on the altar only blood.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[saved1975]

Water refers to water.


Jn 3:5-------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cr12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost>>>>>>washing of reg.>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26----------the WOrd+++++wshing of water>>>>>>cleansed

All four verses speak of the new birth. Where is the flesh, the physical birth in each one?


1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul, not the Holy Spirit, baptized some of the Corinthians and Paul water baptized them, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, the baptism of the great commissions that disciples as Paul are to teach and baptize with.

Paul knew that water baptism does't save,
(1)By personal experience.
(2)In 1 Cor 4: 15, he said it was through his Ministry that they were born again.
And in 1 Cor 1: 14, he said that he didn't baptise them.

Paul is the one who said we are baptized into the body of Christ by the spiritual rebirth, NOT BY WATER.

 

[SeaBass]

Things Hard to be Understood
Acts 22:16

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” – Acts 22:16

Many attempt to use this passage to prove baptismal regeneration or the necessity of baptism for salvation, but it proves no such thing. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that it is faith that saves, and baptism is the symbol and evidence of one’s faith. Acts 22:16, standing alone, could mean either that baptism washes away sins, or it could mean that calling on the name of the Lord washes away sins. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that the true meaning is the latter. In Acts 9:17 we see that Paul was a “brother” in Christ before he was baptized. One must be saved and adopted into God’s family to be a brother in Christ. Romans 10:13 says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is absolutely no mention of baptism in Romans 10. Those who repent and trust the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and baptism signifies this spiritual reality.

When the Philippian jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul did not reply that he needed to believe and be baptized. He replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house” (Acts 16:30-31). After the jailer believed on Christ, he was baptized that same night, but it was only the product of his salvation. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized (Acts 10:43-48), and the Holy Spirit is the mark and seal of sonship and salvation (Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:11-12). If baptism were a part of salvation, the Apostle Paul would not have said, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). Baptism is not part of the Gospel that Paul preached. Further, consider 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. In this passage Paul declared the Gospel “in a nutshell,” and there is no mention of baptism. Paul's Gospel message was also summarized in Acts 20:21 --—”repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, there is no word about baptism. Baptism is important, but it follows salvation and is not a part of the Gospel. When Paul explained how to be saved in Romans chapter 10, he again said nothing about baptism:

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-13).
***********************************
IF water baptism is required for one to get saved, then why did Jesus Christ die on the cross of Calvary and shed His precious blood? If a person is unregenerate (unsaved) when he/she gets water baptized, that unregenerate (unsaved) person will come out of the water an unregenerate (unsaved) "wet" person.

This is what preconceived ideas create.

Acts 22:16 plainly says Saul would wash away his sins by being baptized and being baptized is calling on the name of the Lord.


Peter quoted Joel's prophecy in acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This prophecy was fullfiled in Acts 2:38:


Acts 2:21---------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38---------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins


"Saved" is equivalent to "remission of sins", and since there is just one way to be saved, then "calling upon the name of the Lord'" is equivalent to "repent and be baptized".
.
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Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

The participle 'having believed' includes ALL the jialer had done, inlcuding his repentance in wshing their stripes and being baptized.

---------------------------

I do not have the time now, but if you like, we can go over 1 Cor 1 Monday, Lord willing, and see that it is actually proof text for the necessity of water baptism, ok?

 

[saved1975]

Born again = water baptism. Jesus did say "born of water" in Jn 3:5. He did not just say "born of the spirit" in Jn 3:5.

Please note, Jesus never said anything about water baptism in Jn 3: 5.
According to the Greek Bible text, the water in Jn 3: 5, is the word, Jn 15: 3.
Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.

 

[saved1975]

Born again = water baptism. Jesus did say "born of water" in Jn 3:5. He did not just say "born of the spirit" in Jn 3:5.

How did you get saved?, And how did you get baptized?.


I was saved 7th December 1975. Baptized in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, 11th May 1976. Abd baptized in water 3rd July 1976.
7 months after I was saved, so you have come to late to tell me that water baptism saves, Because I know it doesn't.

So how was you saved and baptized in water.

 

[heavenlyparadise]

How did you get saved?, And how did you get baptized?.


I was saved 7th December 1975. Baptized in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, 11th May 1976. Abd baptized in water 3rd July 1976.
7 months after I was saved, so you have come to late to tell me that water baptism saves, Because I know it doesn't.

So how was you saved and baptized in water.

Baptized in Holy Spirit?
Can you tell us of Holy Spirit?
What is Holy Spirit?
Is Holy Spirit merely speaking tongue ?
For instance, The Holy Spirit came upon the 120 disciples at Pentecost, did Perter speak in TONGUE? or just spoke in his language ?

 

[Nick1939]

Quote, Does water baptism save us ? I read your answers above and I see your confusion of ITEMIZATION that is your problem

The love of God,his grace ,commandments repentance obedience faith fear of God water baptism Mat 21:25 Mark 16:16 acts 2:38 1 Peter 3:21 Preaching the gospel of the kingdom,

All the above are inseparable and you should not ITEMIZE THEM.

1 Tim 6:3-5 V 3. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus
Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, v 4. he is proud,knowing nothing but is obsessed with disputes and
arguments over words, from which come envy,revilling, evil suspicions, e,t,c,... God Bless...

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You post " the new birth is totally spirit..."

Jn 3:5 says born of water and born of the spirit. People are tending to ignore the "born of water" part and look only at the "born of spirit" part. So this new birth consists of both elements water and spirit.

Mt 3:11 is not promising anyone today baptism with the Holy Spirit. The pronoun "you" occurs twice in this verse and neither "you" applies to anyone today, though people try and make the second "you" apply to themselves.

You seem to ignore the spirit part and grab onto the water part and say it means baptism which isn't even mentioned in John 3. Let's look at it all together:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (not baptized), he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4 [questioning the term "born again"] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into him mother's womb, and be born? [Even Nicodemus mentions the first birth, the birth of the flesh]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now when I read that explanation spelled out so Nicodemus would understand that it wasn't entering the womb a second time; Jesus referenced the first birth "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" is regarding being born of water and then the second birth, the new birth "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". We must be BORN AGAIN of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God. Nothing said about we must be baptized in water to see the kingdom of God which is what you are trying to make it say.

If Matthew 3:11 doesn't apply to me then John 3:5,6 nor John 3:16 doesn't apply to me neither. How can you say Matt. 3:11 doesn't apply to us? It apparently applied to the first century church!