Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[homwardbound]

Wow SeaBass, that's quite a post. You've convinced me, lol.

Which saves works or Faith, (works are always involved) which is to be out front, God through you in Faith or you through God in watch my smoke i am better than that person over there, when there is no respect of persons from God, how can this be?
Seeing the difference is key to new life in the Spirit of God, via the resurrected Christ, after the death, seeing the death as our death to self efforts
So does your works, bring you more Faith or more self righteousness, and or more guilt?

 

[SeaBass]

SO do you believe the HOLY SPIRIT is at work in the heart of one HE is trying to bring to repentence?

Do you believe that the HOLY SPIRIT finishes that PERFECT work when the pride in that person breaks, and he drops to his knees to genuinely repent for the first time?

SO WHO THEN SHOULD GET THE CREDIT FOR THE REPENTENCE?

The sinner who resisted the Holy Spirit for so long?

OR

The HOLY SPIRIT Who worked conviction into that hard heart of the sinner?

Acts 2:38 - Repentance is a work commanded to lost sinners. The Holy Spirit, through Peter's gospel message, convicted those Jews of their sin, but repentance was up to those Jews. Some did , most did not. The imperative for the to repent implies their ability and responsibility to obey that command. Those many that did not repent is not the failure or responsibility of the Holy Spirit but upon themselves.


If what you say is true and the Holy Spirit gets credit for those that repent, then it is also true the Holy Spirit gets the credit for failure for those that do not repent. The accountability and responsibility is upon the sinner to repent, not the Holy Spirit.

 

[SeaBass]

No doing without belief, no matter without God's imputed love, one is nothing but a clanging symbol
1 Corinthians 13:1-3

New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

God's imputed righteousness is:

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

New International Version (NIV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5[/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6[/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.[SUP]7[/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

But this does not change the fact that without "doing" one is not a friend of Christ, no right to tree of life and cannot enter into the city, is not of God, is not righteous, will not abide forever, cannot come to the light, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[homwardbound]

i would normally have a "not too nice" response to you but I figure you're 18 and apparently you don't know any better.

What is this bait, you are dangling on the pole, wow Alligator, you have the right to say what you think, and beleive as well as all others do we not.
bait and switch and bring anothers flesh out to the surface, are we no9t here to help, and this goes for all of us, I am talking to me as well
Out of the mouth of babes comes much intelligent wisdom, not always delivered correctly, yet if we can all see past our emotions, that steal, kill and destroy, we might see the new life in Spirit and truth, you think?

 

[SeaBass]

Which saves works or Faith,..

A biblical, saving faith is a work, you cannot separate the two

 

[homwardbound]

We don't oppose scripture, we oppose your interpretations of it.

Originally Posted by Spokenpassage

You mean where would you like to end? It's evident you don't want to be corrected, isn't it?

It originally is not my accusation, it's speaking from scripture.




And who is the only true one that can interpret it correctly?
And what is the battle here and everywhere in this world is it not:

Galatians 4:29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

Can any flesh besides Christ's flesh ever please Father?
Romans 8 a good Chapter on this in summation to all the Chapters before it, the fight between flesh works and God Spirit works
What did Christ claim, did he claim it was his works or Father's through him?
Whom did Christ send to lead us?
Was and is it not the same Holy Spirit that led him?
So who does the works us or Father through us as is what was done through Christ?

 

[VCO]

So no works - no love for the Lord.

Therefore salvation not possible without works.

CHECK YOUR SIX!

Scripture is sneaking up behind you to BITE you!

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

What comes first LOVE or Obedience?

John 21:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] When they had eaten breakfast, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said to Him, “You know that I love You.” “Feed My lambs,” He told him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] A second time He asked him, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord,” he said to Him, “You know that I love You.” “Shepherd My sheep,” He told him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He asked him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved that He asked him the third time, “Do you love Me?” He said, “Lord, You know everything! You know that I love You.”“Feed My sheep,” Jesus said.

What comes first LOVE or Obedience?

 

[homwardbound]

Well of course, that's what this forum is for. Look, if you want to give me book, chapter, and verse of something I teach that is in error, I will be glad to respond. But if you won't do that, I won't waste my time going back-and-forth with you.

Okay, can we start right here first ? is there a before and after the cross?
Answer this and if want I will give scripture that states there is. And if we can reconcile this that there is a before and after the cross, then we might be able to segregate any errors either of us have to the truth, do you agree?

 

[homwardbound]

Start with a verse, chapter, and book.

[h=3]Hebrews 9:15-17[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the case of a will,[SUP][a][/SUP] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, [SUP]17 [/SUP]because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

 

[homwardbound]

.

That's not the way it works. The ball is in your court. You made the accusation.

Hebrews 9:15-17

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the case of a will,[SUP][a][/SUP] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, [SUP]17 [/SUP]because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

 

[SeaBass]

CHECK YOUR SIX!

Scripture is sneaking up behind you to BITE you!

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

What comes first LOVE or Obedience?

John 21:15-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] When they had eaten breakfast, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?”“Yes, Lord,” he said to Him, “You know that I love You.” “Feed My lambs,” He told him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] A second time He asked him, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord,” he said to Him, “You know that I love You.” “Shepherd My sheep,” He told him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He asked him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved that He asked him the third time, “Do you love Me?” He said, “Lord, You know everything! You know that I love You.”“Feed My sheep,” Jesus said.

What comes first LOVE or Obedience?

YOU posted: "[SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work ( to earn his Salvation, but works only because he LOVES GOD ) but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"



--------------------------
The implication of YOUR OWN WORDS is if one does not work, he does not love the Lord.


Now unless you try and argue one can be saved WITHOUT loving the Lord, then you have made being saved (loving the Lord) conditional upon works.


Jn 14:15 love is equated to obedience, so you cannot have one without the other meaning no one can love God while not obeying God. Disobedience proves no love for God.

 

[VCO]

Acts 2:38 - Repentance is a work commanded to lost sinners. The Holy Spirit, through Peter's gospel message, convicted those Jews of their sin, but repentance was up to those Jews. Some did , most did not. The imperative for the to repent implies their ability and responsibility to obey that command. Those many that did not repent is not the failure or responsibility of the Holy Spirit but upon themselves.


If what you say is true and the Holy Spirit gets credit for those that repent, then it is also true the Holy Spirit gets the credit for failure for those that do not repent. The accountability and responsibility is upon the sinner to repent, not the Holy Spirit.

Now that is a rediculous conclusion, we are born in sin (rebellion) because of Adam's sin. Why Adam's sin, and not Eve's sin?
Eve was deceived, while Adam rebelled against what GOD had commanded. So we are born in a state of REBELLION, called the Sin Nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Would you ROB the Holy Spirit of His deserved GLORY, patting yourself on your back?

 

[homwardbound]

For we are not saved by faith alone...Faith without works is dead.

[h=3]James 2:19-22[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][a][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

The above clearly shows that works followed Faith,
Not Faith follows works
And if a man thinks to be justified by works:

Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.

So ask yourself are you boastful and or proud? So if you are what works are you performing? works of self, wanting to be admired and accepted, or works of God's type of love that needs no rewards

 

[homwardbound]

How do you think you are sanctified without doing anything? You're not perfect right now. It takes time, and willingness to serve God. That takes works, and doing as God tells you. If you refuse, do you truly believe or serve Him? No, it must take our will and submission of the will. Faith and Works are One and the same. For without the other, they would be neither.

The only work, Brother that i see is the work hard to enter his rest, for they did not enter during the provocation enter into his rest because of unbelief

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

That is the work, one needs to do to enter into and then rest this is what I and others are trying to tell you, that there is a rest in Father through Son, where one does three times the amount of work, relieved from stress and worry as what they did when they were trying so hard to be one with Father and Son

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his

So whoever is desiring to know God and are working hard to know God. God knows who you are and will give you and show you the rest he has for you in him, and wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the work of love that permeates through you as in 1 Cor. 13:4-13 comes alive and you know it is not you, rather God through you and the joy, peace and righteousness passes all understanding, is this not what all want?

 

[homwardbound]

This verse speaks for itself, it doesn't need my defense. <<

Hebrews 5:8-9
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

How does one obey then? By believing God and then do by belief love to all as in 1 Cor 13:4-13, is this true or false?
Or is there another way to do this and be perfect?

 

[homwardbound]

And if I don't do works, what does that prove?

That proves you that I am not saved, but what does God say?
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[h=3]Romans 3:4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

that would be any law that I would impose on me, that causes stress over rest in the risen Christ

 

[homwardbound]

well I used this verse because it obviously tells that you must actually do something to be saved. You cannot just have faith alone. The keyword is obedience. Obey his commands that's what it's all about. If you refuse to do obedient works, you can't expect to be saved.

It is by my Faith in the finished works of Christ alone that presented me to Father as Holy, to receive the new life in Spirit and triuth. then go about life as a newsboy, not an editor
In love from Father through Son to all, is this truth or error?

 

[homwardbound]

That proves that works are a necessary part of faith. If intention is part of sin, meaning if I intend to do something, then I am guilty of doing it. Such as lusting is adultery. Faith is part of works. For if I do good in order to be recognized, I have my treasure, and have still no chance at Heaven. If I do good in order to please God by obeying Him, I have faith in Him. For good works to be good, they must be God's will. If they are not the will of God, they are not good. Therefore, it is the one who loves God and obeys Him that is a truly saved Christian. If they do not, they have are play acting. Thus, works are required to exist if there is faith. If there are no works, there is no faith.

Works are nothing more than a response to God's overwhelming love, Mercy, being thankful in praise and glory to the Lord, a works program that is being prescribed there is no joy, peace and righteousness in that, it is a self work that tries to get others to be pleased in you and god to do the same
When God does plain and simply just love you. when you get that then one can't stop but to spread the news, which is a work of joy, peace and rightepousness found in the Holy Spirit of truth that God imputed in the ones that beleive God

 

[SeaBass]

Now that is a rediculous conclusion, we are born in sin (rebellion) because of Adam's sin. Why Adam's sin, and not Eve's sin?
Eve was deceived, while Adam rebelled against what GOD had commanded. So we are born in a state of REBELLION, called the Sin Nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Would you ROB the Holy Spirit of His deserved GLORY, patting yourself on your back?

No, you want to give the HS credit for those that repent, then you must also give the HS credit for failure for those that do not repent. In other words, you have taken all responsibility and accountability away from man to repent and put it all upon the HS.

 

[homwardbound]

Someone who is saved by grace through faith does not live rebellious. So faith alone does save, and then fruits appear. That fruit indicates that your faith was genuine. People who have fake faith and not fruits fall away, those truly saved never fall away.

That is the love, joy, peace and righteousness that passes all understanding, thanks agreed