Are Non-Trinitarians saved?

[Bowman]

Are you suggesting hypostatic union?

Another term you do not quite understand....?

 

[Bowman]

He is God in essence.

If Jesus is God, then what is the issue?

 

[Bowman]

Still waiting for that 'Trinity-killer' verse......when can we expect it, Butch....?

 

[Butch5]

No.

Paraphrased truncation is NOT quoting scripture.

Give us your very best 'Trinity Killer' verse, and tell us why...

Did you really not see the two passages? First of all, I'm not opposed to the Trinity, just the contradiction that is taught today.

[SUP]28[/SUP] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(Joh 14:28 KJV)



KJV
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)

 

[Spokenpassage]

The teaching that Jesus has always been is not what was taught in the beginning. That teaching is from around the 400's AD. or so. The Anthanasian Creed says that they are coequal and coeternal, however, the Nicene Creed which came earlier states otherwise.

The Nicene Creed

​

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
​

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
​

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
​

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
​

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

Notice, the creed says, I believe in "one God. the Father." This is the same thing Paul said,

[SUP]5[/SUP] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6[/SUP] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1Co 8:5-6 KJV)

The creed says the same thing that Paul said, there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Notice also that the creed say that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Jesus said that ne came out of God.

Well now, some creeds can be good, but it should NEVER replace scripture. NEITHER should it be above it. Especially interpreting it wrong!

Let's look at what Jesus says...

Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. - John 8:54-59 NAS

Let me get this straight, you believe Jesus is God but not God? I'm confused. There was no God before God and there will be none after Him.

"Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." - Isaiah 43:10b

 

[Butch5]

If Jesus is God, then what is the issue?

You tell me, you're the one how took issue with my post.

 

[Butch5]

Well now, some creeds can be good, but it should NEVER replace scripture. NEITHER should it be above it. Especially interpreting it wrong!

Let's look at what Jesus says...

Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. - John 8:54-59 NAS

Let me get this straight, you believe Jesus is God but not God? I'm confused. There was no God before God and there will be none after Him.

"Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." - Isaiah 43:10b

I posted the creed to show what the earliest Christians believed. As you can see they were is perfect agreement with Paul. Paul did not say, one God in three persons, he said, to us there is one God the Father. The idea of three persons one God came about 400 years after Paul.

The Greek word for God, "theos" means deity. The term is also used to identify the Father. The vast majority of times that the NT uses the word God it's speaking of the Father. The Son is the same essence as the Father. For instance, a human father has a son, that son is equally human with the father. He is no more or no lees human than the father, however, he is not the father. Likewise Jesus was begotten of God (the Father). So whatever God is Jesus is, however, He is not the Father.

The Scripture use the word God two different ways. One way is to identify the Father and the other speaks of the essence of what God is. We have to differentiate the two or we'll be confused which is what happened with the Anthanasian creed.

 

[Bowman]

Did you really not see the two passages? First of all, I'm not opposed to the Trinity, just the contradiction that is taught today.

[SUP]28[/SUP] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(Joh 14:28 KJV)



KJV
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)

Why do you quote Trinitarian English renderings if you deny The Trinity?

Can we say hypocrisy...?

Further...how do these Trinitarian verses supposedly 'thwart' The Trinity?

 

[Butch5]

Another term you do not quite understand....?

That's interesting, you know I don't understand it and yet I've not said anything about it, hmmm...

 

[Bowman]

You tell me, you're the one how took issue with my post.

Since when does 'begotten' equate to 'created'....or anything to diminish Jesus' deity?

You're running on pure unsubstantiated opinion, Butch...

 

[Butch5]

Since when does 'begotten' equate to 'created'....or anything to diminish Jesus' deity?

You're running on pure unsubstantiated opinion, Butch...

Straw man. I didn't say begotten equated to created.

 

[Butch5]

Why do you quote Trinitarian English renderings if you deny The Trinity?

Can we say hypocrisy...?

Further...how do these Trinitarian verses supposedly 'thwart' The Trinity?

Are you creating a straw man or just not understanding what I'm saying? Nowhere have I denied the Trinity. I said what I deny is the modern teaching on the Trinity

 

[Bowman]

I posted the creed to show what the earliest Christians believed. As you can see they were is perfect agreement with Paul. Paul did not say, one God in three persons, he said, to us there is one God the Father. The idea of three persons one God came about 400 years after Paul.

Three persons, One being, comes from the OT.

The Greek word for God, "theos" means deity. The term is also used to identify the Father.

Jesus is called Theos.

The vast majority of times that the NT uses the word God it's speaking of the Father. The Son is the same essence as the Father. For instance, a human father has a son, that son is equally human with the father. He is no more or no lees human than the father, however, he is not the father. Likewise Jesus was begotten of God (the Father). So whatever God is Jesus is, however, He is not the Father.

Who, besides you, ever suggested that The Son IS The Father?

Like I said, you are fighting a strawman argument...

 

[Bowman]

Straw man. I didn't say begotten equated to created.

Then Jesus is God.

For some reason you think that only The Father is God.

 

[Bowman]

Are you creating a straw man or just not understanding what I'm saying? Nowhere have I denied the Trinity. I said what I deny is the modern teaching on the Trinity

Show us how the 'modern' Trinity differs from that proclaimed by Moses.

 

[Bowman]

For Butch...

The concept of the Biblical Trinity can be visualized by the Trinity Shield.

There are twelve possible deity combinations as thus.

• The Father is God(2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
• God is the Father (2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
• The Son is God(Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
• God is the Son (Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
• The Spirit is God(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
• God is the Spirit(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
• The Father is not the Son(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
• The Son is not the Father(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
• The Son is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
• The Spirit is not the Son (Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
• The Spirit is not the Father(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)
• The Father is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)

 

[Vernon]

If it takes our perfect understanding of God to be saved, then Who can be saved?

I believe God has revealed himself as Father , Son and Holy Spirit, but I would be lying to say I understand this perfectly.

I love God because he first love me and gave his only begotten Son for the atoning sacrifice for my sin and the Holy Spirit has entered my being as a witness and comforter. I do not understand God or who he is, even with him revealing himself to me, I can not understand him. So I believe non trinitarians can be saved if they love God and love their neighbor as themselves.

Christ be with you always.

 

[crossnote]

The Trinity doctrine that is commonly taught today is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons in one God and are coequal and coeternal. Many understand that to mean three persons are one being, that is a contradiction. They also claim that the three are coequal, yet Jesus said the Father is greater than I, thus they are not coequal. Many claim that the three have always existed, yet Jesus is the only begotten God.

By the print in bold, I don't see how you can say you believe in the Trinity . You have denied God the Son.
You seem to have an old rehashed Arian view.

 

[Butch5]

Three persons, One being, comes from the OT.

No that's a contradiction.

Jesus is called Theos.

Yes, He is .

Who, besides you, ever suggested that The Son IS The Father?

Like I said, you are fighting a strawman argument...

It seems you did above when you said , three persons, one being. If the three are one being then the Father must be the Son, or you have a contradiction.

 

[ThomistColin]

No that's a contradiction.[/SIZE][/FONT]



Yes, He is .




It seems you did above when you said , three persons, one being. If the three are one being then the Father must be the Son, or you have a contradiction.

You deny the Trinity. You deny the Athanasian Creed, and therefore deny Trinity.