Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[homwardbound]

God's righteousness can not be duplicated, in any flesh person born of the womb of woman. not as perfect, can do a lot of things correct and learn form many mistakes and do better and better as we all learn here on earth, with the attitude to do right.

Yet not one has learned to be perfect nor ever has, except Jesus Christ the Son of God the Father

So take ten pin pong balls and put them all in a tub of water, now try to hold all ten ping pong balls under water at the same time using just your two hands

Can anyone do this? Are we starting to see our inability, that we need the only one that can do this and did this, using the same example, only the ten ping pong balls are the Ten Laws, that we are incapable of being perfect under them, even if we do them, for that rich man did them all from birth on, and what happened?
The episode is in Matthew 19, and as this rich man walked away sad, seeing he can't be perfect, saw no way was he going to go to Heaven.
The disciples saw the same no way and so asked Jesus; how can anyone, enter Heaven
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

What was Christ talking about? This was before the cross was it not? Could he have been talking about thhe cross where he takes away the sin of the world in his Father's sight? Why? So he, Father could give us new life and Father could live in us and through us by Faith as Christ showed so well, in how to live by Faith alone in Father's lead you think?

Did Jesus ever claim to do any of the works he did? So how is it we are trying to claim and do? When it is obvious Chirst walked by Faith alone. Are we more special or something?

 

[SeaBass]

Twisty.

The works are a result of faith. You ignored my whole question. Ar eyou telling me your work always follows faith immediately? What if you could not be baptized the MOMENT you had faith to do so. Is God going to hold your salvation because you are not able to do the work of your real, life giving faith?

Mailmandan posted the following: (blue)

Do you believe that a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith?

Do you believe that a dead tree produces good fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree?


Can you start out with a dead, fruitless tree and expect it to produce fruit later?

Can you start out with a dead, workless faith and expect it to produce works later?

 

[SeaBass]

So we are seeing from different angles are we not? As if we all in a circle around a circus and are center of attention is Christ Jesus, and from my side of the arena, I see this and from your side you see this, and we are chatting to each other what we see. And neither one of us can see what the other is seeing until we go to that side the other one is viewing from can we?
I agree wholeheartedly in what you just stated here and thank you

So Abraham was the "center of attention" when he obeyed God's will by going out and offering Isaac?

 

[SeaBass]

And does God leave us or forsake if when we first believe and do no works? will he leave us as we are after we decided we do believe?

Belief with no works does not save...check with the devils on that, James 2:19.

 

[SeaBass]

Well yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that not why the disciples had to wait? I mean they all knew the truth, right? Jesus hung around explaining the truth after risen for forty days. So why did they have to wait?

Wait for the Comforter?


Jesus helped the apostles when He was personally with them. But after He was to leave to return to His Father, He sent the Comforter to them to help them as He did when He was with them. Jesus was not to leave His apostles alone without Divine help.

 

[SeaBass]

The Holy Spirit of Father does and not of himself, of Father and Son is who he tells us about, and gives us truth from Father to teach us that put no confidence in your flesh.
Father surely did not do this for those disciples did he? No they had to wait? So are you yet born again? Has God Spirit testified with your Spirit that you belong to him yet, being the assurance of your salvation
Romans 8, covers this.

This issue if this:

Does man choose of his own will to repent?

Or does the Holy Spirit decide for men which ones will or will not repent where men have no choice in the matter?

 

[SeaBass]

Man is the liar God is not:

Romans 3:27 [ Boasting Excluded ] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Romans 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
Galatians 1:20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
Galatians 3:1 [ Justification by Faith ] O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Faith, belief produces the true works of God, and that is it, Father through Christ gets all the credit and Father credits Christ and together when one gives up self works they praise you, because now the love of God is manifested through you not taking any credit for self, dead to self and alive in Spirit and truth

Ephesians 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Do these verses you posted above suppose to undo, change, nullify of all the verses that I posted that prove one must "do" or be lost?

 

[SeaBass]

Okay, but it is not a work of self, it is the work of God right?

God does not have to have faith to be saved.

YOU have to have faith, YOUR faith is to be a work.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes to make the choice, to beleive or not to believe
Believe, receive, and see a new

Yes, MEN choose of their own will to repent, so this is part of their own role in their own salvation.

So the Holy Spirit does not determine for men, against the will of men, which men will or will not repent. Repentance is man's role.

 

[SeaBass]

That depends on whether Father has accepted us?
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

God accepts those that work His righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

God is Faithful, we are not and Father carries on the work Father started in us those that believe

You have to speak for your self about your own faithfulness.

You may not be faithful but I, along with others, are faithful.

 

[SeaBass]

THINK ABOUT, it is your theory that IF GOD DOES IT ALL, then HE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME FOR FAILURES, that makes NO SENSE. GOD wrote the names in the BOOK OF LIFE, who WOULD NOT CLING TO THE REBELLION OF BEING LORD OF THEIR OWN LIVES, WHO WOULD RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND MASTER; before the foundation of the world!

Was that GOD foretelling the future?

OR IS GOD A WHOLE LOT BIGGER AND MORE IN CONTROL THAN YOU EVER IMAGINED?

Could it be that HIS OMNIPRESENCE is both in TIME and space?

IS HE OMNIPRESENT IN EVERY SECOND OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE, ALL AT THE SAME TIME?

THUS, BECAUSE HE IS OMNIPRESENT IN TIME, HE SIMPLY CHOSE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, THOSE WHO ARE CHOOSING TO SUBMIT TO JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND MASTER.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.



I have only tried earnestly to share the TRUTH with you, but every time you close your ears, because you would rather be proud of your own works.

It is not a theory but fact:

If God is 100% control of salvation and man has 0% control over his own salvation, then God is 100% the reason for those that are saved, (which you have no problem with). Yet He is also 100% at fault for those that are lost (which you is the problem you have created but try to deny).


Therefore Calvinistic predestination is wrong, for God never chose certain individuals to be saved unconditionally. God foreknew and predestined a group called Christian and any man that obeys the gospel becomes part of this group, the foreknown group. So anyone NOT in this group is not God's fault.


I am still waiting for the Calvinists on this forum to tell the rest of us the basis God uses to have mercy upon some and not others.

 

[posthuman]

I am still waiting for the Calvinists on this forum to tell the rest of us the basis God uses to have mercy upon some and not others.

i am still waiting for you to learn humility and refrain from judging God, whether He has chosen the objects of His mercy rightly or not.

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 8. . . .If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? God that justifieth? Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. NAY, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul lists things exteranl to man that cannot separate those that love God from God. But man can separate himself from the love of God, Jude therefore COMMANDS to keep yourselves in the love of God, Jude 1:21.

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh.

The Galatians thought they could be justified by leaving Christ's NT and going back to the OT keeping circumcision

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 goes with verse 6, verse 5 says "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

Paul's confidence in God wa because those Philippians had remained faithful in the gospel

Colossians 1:21,22 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel . . . .

Salvation is conditional as the word "if" shows...IF you continue in the faith.

Colossians 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit agter the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: . . . .

Salvation is "IN HIM". Doing nothing will never get anyone "IN HIM".

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless and I count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and do count them dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us there fore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if any thing you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Amen and amen. . . . .

Doing one's own righteousness cannot save but one must do God's righteousness (obedient faith) to be saved. Paul was pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God. Doing nothing, no pressing, cannot get one that prize of the high calling of God.

 

[posthuman]

If God is 100% control of salvation and man has 0% control over his own salvation, then God is 100% the reason for those that are saved, Yet He is also 100% at fault for those that are lost.

how were you given a seat on this high council responsible for bringing charges against the Lord of Lords, saying He has has been unjust?

are you not terrified to accuse God?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:14-15)

how much more clear could the testimony be?

 

[chubbena]

how were you given a seat on this high council responsible for bringing charges against the Lord of Lords, saying He has has been unjust?

are you not terrified to accuse God?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:14-15)

how much more clear could the testimony be?

...and justice is all men deserve death....and mercy is those who deserve death are given life...and justice is not mercy and vise versa.

 

[SeaBass]

Again, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The words "and offered up Isaac" is not in Genesis 15:6. Read both verses - 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.



Abraham's faith was not yet accounted to him for righteousness in chapters 12-14. You added works to Genesis 15:6. The Bible does not say that Abraham left his house, land and kindred and that was accounted to him for righteousness. This led him to Genesis 15:6 where his faith was accounted to him for righteousness after he believed God. Genesis 15:6 also did not say that Abraham sacrificed Isaac and it was accounted to him for righteousness either.

Where does the Bible say that prior to Genesis 15:6 that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness? If Abraham was already in a saved position prior to Genesis 15:6 then why was his faith not accounted to him for righteousness until Genesis 15:6? Your opinion does not line up with scripture.

Abraham did not disobey God in Genesis 12:1-3, yet this was not accounted to him for righteousness. This led up to Abraham being told that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in heaven, then after believing the Lord in Genesis 15:6, his faith was then accounted to him for righteousness.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

Where did Paul say that Abraham was saved by works? He didn't. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.Read more. 4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. That is crystal clear.
James 2:23 - And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. It does not mean that he was finally saved many years later based on his works.

What James means by faith only is an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James is discussing the proof of faith, not the initial act of God by which he accounts the believer as righteous.



James is not saying that Abraham was accounted as righteous (saved) by works. Abraham's obedience is not what was accounted to him for righteousness. His obedience did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but his obedience proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. Paul, when he uses the term justified, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24).

James quoted Gen 15:6 and tied works to Abraham's faith. So evidently James did not think, nor does the Gen 15:6 say, Abraham believed only in the Lord. Gen 12:1-3 proves the belief Abraham had in Gen 15:6 ALREADY had obedient works. You simply trying to make us forget about Gen 12 apparently.

Heb 11:8 BY FAITH Abraham...OBEYED, and he went out no t knowing where he was going.

So his faith prior to Gen 15:6 had obedience.

So when Paul wrote Rom 4:3, prove to me that Abraham's faith had always been void of works. Gen 15:6 would not have happened without the obedience in Gen 12:1-3. Paul did not say Abraham's belief being reckoned righteousness was without obedience, but that it was without works of merit, verse 4.

Why does not either Gen 15:6 or Rom 4:2 say "belief only" if that were the case?

You imply that Abraham was lost before Gen 15:6 which is not the case. Prove to us Abraham was an unbelieving, lost sinner prior to Gen 15:6. Gen 15:1 says he was already in a saved position with God prior to verse 6.

Abraham had been a faithful servant of God. Let us consider a few things said of him:

1. God had appeared to Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees and commanded him to go into a land which would be shown him, and promised to bless him, and to make a great nation of him, and to bless all families of earth through his seed, Genesis 12:1-3; Acts 7:2-3.
2. "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went" (Hebrews 11:8). By faith he obeyed, and trustingly did as commanded, not knowing where he was going. Strange conduct indeed for an unforgiven, condemned sinner!
3. When he reached the place of Shechem, in the land of Canaan, "Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, 'Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto Jehovah, who appeared unto him" (Genesis 12:6-7). Why this promise, and why this worship, if Abraham was then a unforgiven sinner?
4. Abraham moved on from there to a mountain between Bethel and Ai; "and there he builded an altar unto Jehovah, and called upon the name of Jehovah" (Genesis 12:8).
5. After his unfortunate visit to Egypt, he returned to the altar between Bethel and Ai; "and there Abram called on the name of Jehovah" (Genesis 13:3,4). Can anyone believe that an unforgiven sinner was thus worshiping Jehovah and caling on His name?
6. When he returned from the slaughter of the kings who had taken Lot captive, Melchizedek, priest of God Most High, "blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High" (Genesis 14:19). As Abram was blessed, or happy, and as he was described as "Abram of God Most High," it is certain that he was not a condemned alien sinner.
7. After these things and before the promise of a son, the Lord said to him: "Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward," (Genesis 15:1). That settles it. God would not tell an unforgiven sinner not to fear; neither is He the shield and exceeding great reward of such a sinner.
8. A Comparison of Romans 4 and James 2:14-26

The above 7 points represents a lost, unforgiven reprobate sinner prior to Gen 15:6?


Coffman Commentary says of Gen 15:6: (my emp)
It is absolutely impossible properly to observe this place as the record of a new covenant. Genesis 12:1f contains the embryo of all that is given here. Therefore, this chapter (15) has a recapitulation and further explanation of the covenant God had already made with Abram, a covenant upon which Abram acted, which he received in good faith, and in which actions he had already demonstrated his faith by OBEDIENCE, the prime factor without which salvation for anybody, past, present, or future, is totally impossible.


And why was it that it was not until Abraham offered Isaac that God said "for nowIknow that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.' Gen 22:12? Because Abraham was not finally justified until he did this obedient work......as James says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"


No works = no justification.

 

[SeaBass]

Furthermore, God promised Abraham a son and Abraham believed. Gen 15:6. Could Abraham "do nothing" and realize that promise?

 

[SeaBass]

i am still waiting for you to learn humility and refrain from judging God, whether He has chosen the objects of His mercy rightly or not.

I am still waiting for the Calvinists on this forum to tell the rest of us the basis God uses to have mercy upon some and not others.

Seems you have a large, gaping black hole in your theology you cannot explain so you make a personal attack on me to avoid answering it.

 

[SeaBass]

how were you given a seat on this high council responsible for bringing charges against the Lord of Lords, saying He has has been unjust?

are you not terrified to accuse God?

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:14-15)

how much more clear could the testimony be?

It's Calvinism that is putting the fault and blame on God for failing to save some men. I am just pointing it out.