Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Sirk]

Foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.

Then you limit God. When He made Adam and Eve he knew all that would follow and all who would choose.

 

[VCO]

Foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.

Foreknowledge? GOD is OMNIPRESENT, not only in Space but more importantly IN TIME AS WE KNOW IT. That means GOD is present at the conversion of every Genuine BELIEVER; before the foundation of the earth. HE DECLARES the End from the Beginning, not because of "Foreknowledge", but because HE IS OMNIPRESENT IN ALL TIME AT THE SAME TIME. GOD is not a created Being traveling through time, HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT.

 

[ThomistColin]

Foreknowledge? GOD is OMNIPRESENT, not only in Space but more importantly IN TIME AS WE KNOW IT. That means GOD is present at the conversion of every Genuine BELIEVER; before the foundation of the earth. HE DECLARES the End from the Beginning, not because of "Foreknowledge", but because HE IS OMNIPRESENT IN ALL TIME AT THE SAME TIME. GOD is not a created Being traveling through time, HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT.

That's what the theological term means.

 

[Timeline]

NO, all sins were paid for on the Cross except ONE. It is that very one that will eternally remain unforgiven, that will cause their sentencing to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

That sin is Blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit, who tries to get all mankind to believe in GOD receiving HIM AS LORD, which means MASTER. Thus rejecting the Holy Spirit's efforts to bring us to that Saving Faith, choosing instead to remain lord of one's own life, or bowing to another false god, certainly will lead one to the eternal destruction of Hell.

Mark 3:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

So you believe that accepting being led by the Holy Spirit is not longer needed after someone has accepted Jesus.

For example, If the Holy Spirit leads/tells/guides someone to do something or to stop doing something (that person having already accepted Jesus), then we do not need to listen anymore, because we have already been saved. Listening to the Holy Spirit is ongoing. Now I am not saying that we are condemned any time that we don't follow the instruction of the Holy Spirit (at least I hope not), but I do believe that continuing to ignore the Holy Spirit puts us in danger. I am sure that you can think of examples.

 

[newbirth]

So I have to do to be saved, God is not Faithful, and anyone can snatch me out of his hand, and anyone's weapons formed against will prosper unless I do is this what you are saying?

From your responses brother it seems you want to learn as we all do . The word of God is very clear in what we ought to do but it cannot be done unless we trust in our Lord.
So you have faith, now there are things you must add to your faith in order to mature in Christ.
He who has ears to hear let him hear. The word of god is true
2 Peter 1
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

[SUP]8[/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[VCO]

So you believe that accepting being led by the Holy Spirit is not longer needed after someone has accepted Jesus.

For example, If the Holy Spirit leads/tells/guides someone to do something or to stop doing something (that person having already accepted Jesus), then we do not need to listen anymore, because we have already been saved. Listening to the Holy Spirit is ongoing.
. . .

Point to ONE statement that I made that says that. You are not the only one, but please, stick to what I actually said, instead of trying to read into it false doctrine, changing what I said entirely.

I will simplify my explanation of my beliefs,

I BELIEVE:

God is intelligent enough to say exactly what He means, and that ALL of Scripture; Gen. 1:1 through the final AMEN of Rev. 22:21 was inspired by GOD, and without error in the original hand written manuscripts. {2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21}

I believe that GOD is the ONLY GENUINE DEITY that exists anywhere, and that within that singular DEITY are three distict personages with three distinct functions within that singular DEITY. Those three distinct personages are The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, who are co-equally GOD. {Genesis 1:26-27, Isaiah 6:8, Matthew 28:19, Colossians 2:9, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Philippians 2:6}

I believe that ALL men are UTTERLY SINFUL from natural birth, having been born with a sin nature inherited from Adam. Why UTTERLY SINFUL? Because one sin, no matter how small we think it is, makes us GUILTY of breaking all of GOD's LAWS. That is why every human being desperately NEEDS A SAVIOR. {James 2:10, Romans 7:14, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:6-9, Romans 5:10-13}

I believe SALVATION is PURELY by the Grace of GOD (receiving what we do not deserve), coming through Faith, which is solely is a GIFT of GOD's Mercy (not receiving what we do deserve), and all of that is a WORK of the Holy Spirit. NONE of it is by our own Good Works, specifically so that NONE OF US CAN BRAG WE EARNED OUR SALVATION. {Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8-10, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5}

I believe that One ABSOLUTELY must be Born Again, or that person will NEVER go to Heaven. Born Again is when at the very moment we first believe, the Holy Spirit enters our Heart permanently, bringing our once dead to the will of GOD human spirit, to become Eternally Alive never to die again. That Eternally Alive human spirit through the Free Gift of Faith placed in that spiritual mind, chooses to Repent of sins and chooses to receive Jesus as LORD, which means MASTER, (= SAVED). That Born Again human spirit has a mind also, and as it grows spiritually feeding on the Word of GOD, it will eventually become dominant over the mind of the flesh. {Colossians 2:13, John 1:12-13, Col. 2:6, Rom. 10:9, John 3:3-7, Tit. 3:5, Josh. 24:15, 1 Peter 2:2, Matthew 5:6, Hebrews 5:12-14, Hebrews 6:1, Isaiah 42:5, Romans 8:4-5, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16}

I believe that IF THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE was the real thing, IT WILL CERTAINLY PRODUCE in the lifestyle of that individual, LOVE FOR GOD, that proves he or she truly was born again. Failure to produce the evidence and/or falling away, only validates that they were NEVER born again in the first place. That proof that the Holy Spirit will produce in that individual is PRIMARILY a deep LOVE for GOD, because HE SAVED US, manifesting itself in a lifestyle of continually striving to obey HIM, simply because you LOVE HIM. It is manifested as LOVE for other Christians as well as GOD. It also produces immediately in us a mourning over our sinfulness when we fail, and drives us to repent of that sin and return to striving to obey HIM out of LOVE. I believe obedience done as a means to "rubbing GOD the right way" to get something out of HIM, including Salvation, is ABSOLUTELY OF NO VALUE to GOD, and amounts to a pile of filthy smelly rags in HIS SIGHT. GOD is NOT a magic genie and works for any motive other than pure LOVE will fail to manipulate GOD. GOD searches the Hearts of men, to see what motive they have for doing good works. LOVE is the only pure motive. {John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 5:3, 1 John 4:7-13, Isaiah 64:6-7, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Romans 8:27, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:4, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27-28}

 

[Timeline]

Point to ONE statement that I made that says that. You are not the only one, but please, stick to what I actually said, instead of trying to read into it false doctrine, changing what I said entirely.

I will simplify my explanation of my beliefs,

I BELIEVE:

God is intelligent enough to say exactly what He means, and that ALL of Scripture; Gen. 1:1 through the final AMEN of Rev. 22:21 was inspired by GOD, and without error in the original hand written manuscripts. {2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21}

I believe that GOD is the ONLY GENUINE DEITY that exists anywhere, and that within that singular DEITY are three distict personages with three distinct functions within that singular DEITY. Those three distinct personages are The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, who are co-equally GOD. {Genesis 1:26-27, Isaiah 6:8, Matthew 28:19, Colossians 2:9, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Philippians 2:6}

I believe that ALL men are UTTERLY SINFUL from natural birth, having been born with a sin nature inherited from Adam. Why UTTERLY SINFUL? Because one sin, no matter how small we think it is, makes us GUILTY of breaking all of GOD's LAWS. That is why every human being desperately NEEDS A SAVIOR. {James 2:10, Romans 7:14, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:6-9, Romans 5:10-13}

I believe SALVATION is PURELY by the Grace of GOD (receiving what we do not deserve), coming through Faith, which is solely is a GIFT of GOD's Mercy (not receiving what we do deserve), and all of that is a WORK of the Holy Spirit. NONE of it is by our own Good Works, specifically so that NONE OF US CAN BRAG WE EARNED OUR SALVATION. {Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8-10, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5}

I believe that One ABSOLUTELY must be Born Again, or that person will NEVER go to Heaven. Born Again is when at the very moment we first believe, the Holy Spirit enters our Heart permanently, bringing our once dead to the will of GOD human spirit, to become Eternally Alive never to die again. That Eternally Alive human spirit through the Free Gift of Faith placed in that spiritual mind, chooses to Repent of sins and chooses to receive Jesus as LORD, which means MASTER, (= SAVED). That Born Again human spirit has a mind also, and as it grows spiritually feeding on the Word of GOD, it will eventually become dominant over the mind of the flesh. {Colossians 2:13, John 1:12-13, Col. 2:6, Rom. 10:9, John 3:3-7, Tit. 3:5, Josh. 24:15, 1 Peter 2:2, Matthew 5:6, Hebrews 5:12-14, Hebrews 6:1, Isaiah 42:5, Romans 8:4-5, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16}

I believe that IF THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE was the real thing, IT WILL CERTAINLY PRODUCE in the lifestyle of that individual, LOVE FOR GOD, that proves he or she truly was born again. Failure to produce the evidence and/or falling away, only validates that they were NEVER born again in the first place. That proof that the Holy Spirit will produce in that individual is PRIMARILY a deep LOVE for GOD, because HE SAVED US, manifesting itself in a lifestyle of continually striving to obey HIM, simply because you LOVE HIM. It is manifested as LOVE for other Christians as well as GOD. It also produces immediately in us a mourning over our sinfulness when we fail, and drives us to repent of that sin and return to striving to obey HIM out of LOVE. I believe obedience done as a means to "rubbing GOD the right way" to get something out of HIM, including Salvation, is ABSOLUTELY OF NO VALUE to GOD, and amounts to a pile of filthy smelly rags in HIS SIGHT. GOD is NOT a magic genie and works for any motive other than pure LOVE will fail to manipulate GOD. GOD searches the Hearts of men, to see what motive they have for doing good works. LOVE is the only pure motive. {John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 5:3, 1 John 4:7-13, Isaiah 64:6-7, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Romans 8:27, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:4, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27-28}

So, despite a few details, we agree.

 

[konroh]

I believe in John 6:47 "He who believes has eternal life."

I believe that we can never be plucked from God's hand. John 10

I believe we can fall under God's punishing fire if we neglect so great a salvation. Hebrews

We can fall away, Heb. 6, we can become shipwrecked in our faith, 1 Tim 1:19, but we can never be plucked from God's hand.

Simple Scripture, simple truths.

 

[Gble]

Good works is our response on what Jesus did on the cross which is He saved us because of Who He is and not what We've done. We cant earn salvation. Its because of God's love and grace.

 

[VCO]

So, despite a few details, we agree.

If you say so, but show me a Doctrinal Statement of Faith that you wholeheartedly agree with, and I will let you know.

I never thought I would sit down and write a personal Doctrinal Statement of Faith, but the LORD works in mysterious ways.

Just think about how much more the Christian Churches could accomplish if we just sat down and discussed our common core of beliefs, instead of the little things that we seem to love to bicker about. Believe it or not, I can even go to the Vatican's Catholic Catechism and pull out the SAME Central CORE of Beliefs as the Protestants have. Granted they do not seem to be doing a very thorough job of teaching them from the pulpits, but those Beliefs are THERE.

 

[homwardbound]

Was James boasting when he said "... and I will shew thee my faith by my works."?


No, he was proving a faith void is works (faith alone) is dead and cannot justify.

Works are the result of Faith
Works do not produce Faith. God gives us the Faith that produces God's works through us that are already done
No matter what way you or I see it, if we are God's neither one oif have anything to worry about do we?
So if you are at peace then so beit, I pray you are
Thanks for all yuor posts

 

[homwardbound]

So if it is all God and mankind has no role in his own salvation, then God will save all mankind unconditionally then?

The only condition left after the cross, death first, then resurrection if one will confess with his mouth and believe Father raised Son from the dead and Christ is alive forevermore making constant intercession for us, The one's that can't be perfect, then we will be saved
So the ? is do you believe God to be this Merciful to you?
To beleive or not to beleive, your free choice, mine and all the world's. Not to be taken for granted; to be appreciated
The more one sees how much they are forgiven and loved by Father through Son. The deeper one loves and forgives

 

[homwardbound]

Acts 10:35 is not "self-works" but obeying God's righteousness/commands.

And Father is the Judge of that not me

 

[homwardbound]

So you agree that one can come to Christ only if the Holy Spirit "empowers" him to do so? (Can I get a simple 'yes' or 'no' then we can go from there.)

Yes and no is the answer depending on one's view?
Why Because Father first draws one to beleive, then draws one to see, what a miraculous Father, Father is in Mercy and truth, by and through Son, it is done and we had nothing to do with it. God did this by himself for us, if we decide to belief God or not is all that is left
God knows who belief and who does not, even if one says they do
I personally do not want to fall from this amazing grace given to us, and so therefore I respond in thanksgiving and praise and love as God has imputed into to love his way, since no natural man can

 

[homwardbound]

So here you say "yes".

So those that do not come to Christ would be the Holy SPirit's fault for failing to empower them to come to Christ. So those lost are not lost due to their own shosrtcomings, but lost due to a shortcoming of the HS empowering them.

I do not comprehend how you can fathom, it to be God's fault?
You either believe or you do not, i8t is a free choice to beleive or not. There is nothing else, and Father will do the sorting when the time comes, I am at rest in this

 

[homwardbound]

From your responses brother it seems you want to learn as we all do . The word of God is very clear in what we ought to do but it cannot be done unless we trust in our Lord.
So you have faith, now there are things you must add to your faith in order to mature in Christ.
He who has ears to hear let him hear. The word of god is true
2 Peter 1
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

[SUP]8[/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

By Faith, trusting Father through Son, all these things are added after one comes into the end of trying to do it all, and sees it is only God that can and does it all, and is done for us at the cross
Peter had much trouble in this, denied Christ three times, rebuked by Paul at Galatia, and even God showed Peter God has no respect of persons. Peter was a worker, a strong zeal for God and yet had much fear that needed to be cast out from him. And was. So he wrote wisely, from Father speaking through him, and came to see this mighty grace, as we all are still not ever 100% obedient. That is when I gave up my works for God's works

 

[Sirk]

If I came to Christ because the Holy Spirit led me I count myself lucky.... If I came to Christ because I made my own choice I consider myself lucky. It's a winwin! Do you think if you don't believe a certain way regarding this you are in danger of hells fire?

 

[homwardbound]

God just loves us all, otherwise why would God have gone to the cross for us? Could he not have gone? Did he need to go there for himself, being perfect?
So why did he do this? If anyone could be perfect besides Christ, would this have ever occurred? Was it needed if anyone of us could be perfect?

 

[homwardbound]

If I came to Christ because the Holy Spirit led me I count myself lucky.... If I came to Christ because I made my own choice I consider myself lucky. It's a winwin! Do you think if you don't believe a certain way regarding this you are in danger of hells fire?

Brother, we are free in Christ, by belief, Father sets us free, Christ the way, the truth and the new life given to us to walk in by Spirit and truth

 

[SarahM777]

Yes, faith only is dead. Do you not know that, James 2:20?

Seabass,

Could you please clarify something for me,I have seen some of the accusations of people claiming you are saying that you are trying to earn salvation by works (I don't think that is what you are really saying) What I think I hear you saying is this,that it is a faith that produces works that saves us,nor are we saved by works in and of themselves. Thanks